Engine Room Fire in HMCS Protecteur

[Occam]

They're not looking at particularly nice weather to be towing a tanker in, either.  Yes, I know it's a surfing site, but it gives the best zoom in on the wave heights expected around Hawaii in the next seven days.  They're looking forward to a 630 km tow.

http://www.surfertoday.com/wave-height-forecast/hawaii

 

[FSTO]

Glad everyone is okay and she is still floating.

On the other hand, the chickens are coming home to roost. 10 lost years screwing around with the ALCS and the "Big Honking Ship" ideas when all we needed was a bloody AOR!

 

[Good2Golf]

Glad all aboard are doing okay, but hope that those badly injured will have a quick and complete recovery.

Here's hoping for a full & speedy recovery to all concerned.
If Canada could afford them, they'd be a great stop-gap solution.
Methinks the "naval buy/lease used" option might not be, well, as optically sound at it might be, given Canada's history with the approach.

Done right, it could work if PRO was damaged beyond economical repair...using Chinooks as a model, interim purchase of used 6 x CH-147D (and lease of a 7th, with the shoot down/destruction of one of the first six) while still moving forward with the major capital purchase of 15 x CH-147F new aircraft could be used as a workable (and having been done once by the current government, a politically acceptable) model.


Regards
G2G

 

[Navy_Pete]

Training the crews for a chinook is a lot easier then retraining a ships company (as they also do maintenance to keep it operating 24/7 for months at a time).  Leasing has been looked at before and not really feasible (time wise) unless it includes a crew.  Basically you rent an oiler to keep time on station to give you gas as required.  As you can imagine, they charge a fortune for the convenience.

Everytime one of the AORs goes in for a refit the ship is effectively out of commission for two years, and the fleets don't shut down. 

I think the big thing here is that despite having a major space fire on a 50+ year old commercially designed ship, the crew kept it confined to the engine room and no one was killed, so BZ to them.

 

[AirDet]

Training the crews for a chinook is a lot easier then retraining a ships company (as they also do maintenance to keep it operating 24/7 for months at a time).  Leasing has been looked at before and not really feasible (time wise) unless it includes a crew.  Basically you rent an oiler to keep time on station to give you gas as required.  As you can imagine, they charge a fortune for the convenience.

Everytime one of the AORs goes in for a refit the ship is effectively out of commission for two years, and the fleets don't shut down. 

I think the big thing here is that despite having a major space fire on a 50+ year old commercially designed ship, the crew kept it confined to the engine room and no one was killed, so BZ to them.

I couldn't agree with you more. However, with an election approaching the whole National Shipbuilding concept may suffer the same fate as the original SeaKing replacement contract "with a stroke of my pen". There needs to be focus kept on this issue to keep it from fading away along wit our Blue Water capabilities.

 

[chrisf]

Training the crews for a chinook is a lot easier then retraining a ships company (as they also do maintenance to keep it operating 24/7 for months at a time).  Leasing has been looked at before and not really feasible (time wise) unless it includes a crew.  Basically you rent an oiler to keep time on station to give you gas as required.  As you can imagine, they charge a fortune for the convenience.

Leasing a ship that's at the end of it's service life to replace another ship that's been dragged long beyond the end of it's service life isn't a great option, but...

Civi side it's regularly expected that you can move from one ship to another ship with little difficulty. The basic systems are all generally the same. Bit of time to learn where valves are, and where bits and pieces are poked away to, and there's always the "it's always been like that" factor, but reasonably, if you leased a few experienced American crew along with it, a few months and you should be fine.

Given that they were built in the early-90s, they probably still have most of the original drawings on board, and the ship probably still comes close to the as-builts... so much less of a big deal than you'd think to have a crew that could run it.

Is it normal for navy folks to spend the majority of their career on a single ship? It's been my experience in the civilian world that this sort of sailor (in the maintenance department anyway) knows that single ship very well, but picks up a lot of bad habits, and a great many repairs are work-arounds rather than done right.

 

[jollyjacktar]

To a certain extent, yes, some trades gravitate back to the same class ship again and again.  Stokers on the Tankers have all been there for years as they have class specific tickets and experience as they are steam ships and that you cannot just pick up.  All three classes have their own little strange ways and needs.  Some things are easily adapted to, but others no so much.

 

[chrisf]

Stokers on the Tankers have all been there for years as they have class specific tickets and experience as they are steam ships and that you cannot just pick up.

Or in other words, they're going to have to be retrained regardless once the tankers go?

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Personally, I think its time to seriously look at the option of purchasing immediately the Dutch JSS that is almost completed (another 6 months at most) and they are trying to get rid of. She becomes the stopgap ship until the QUEENSTOWN's come on line, at which point she goes in semi-retirement as back-up when needed.

From a political point of view, it is unfortunate that all this is happening when one of the more powerful member of the Joint (Senate/Commons) Defence Committee, Senator Colin, is under a heavy cloud. He is the type of member who would have had the clout to push for something like that.

 

[suffolkowner]

I think the Dutch decided to keep their JSS(?)

What would the amount of a repair have to be to pay off the ship in everyone's opinion.

The Aussies paid 100/150 million for the Bay Class LPD(?). I really think a purchase of the US fast supply ships would make sense, however DND does not like having to think on their feet

 

[Journeyman]

I think the Dutch decided to keep their JSS(?)

Yes, they're getting out of the Main Battle Tank business instead, selling those to Finland. Link 
The JSS is on-schedule and within budget.  The ongoing story is here.

At the end of the JSS feed, there's this:

Similar & Related Vessels
DID – Canada’s C$ 2.9B “Joint Support Ship” Project Sinks. Canada decided to go its own way, and the program eventually broke their budgets.

 

[dapaterson]

From a political point of view, it is unfortunate that all this is happening when one of the more powerful member of the Joint (Senate/Commons) Defence Committee, Senator Colin, is under a heavy cloud. He is the type of member who would have had the clout to push for something like that.

He's been under a cloud for years - but since he's a useful source of leaks, the Hill scribes never reported on him or his activities (other than Frank).  Par for the cosy incestuous media/government course on the Hill...

 

[Good2Golf]

Training the crews for a chinook is a lot easier then retraining a ships company (as they also do maintenance to keep it operating 24/7 for months at a time).  Leasing has been looked at before and not really feasible (time wise) unless it includes a crew.  Basically you rent an oiler to keep time on station to give you gas as required.  As you can imagine, they charge a fortune for the convenience.

Everytime one of the AORs goes in for a refit the ship is effectively out of commission for two years, and the fleets don't shut down. 

I think the big thing here is that despite having a major space fire on a 50+ year old commercially designed ship, the crew kept it confined to the engine room and no one was killed, so BZ to them.

Knowing a family friend's experience (a stoker on HMCS Saguenay) he related about late October 1969 and his Ship's involvement with HMCS Kootenay, I am very much mindful of the discipline and excellent performance of PRO's crew in containing the fire, as you and others have said, BZ to the Ship's crew!

So if PRO is beyond economical repair will the RCN not pursue any capability in advance of the new ships?  I'm not fully up to speed on the complexities of a ship, but one should not mistakenly underestimate the challenges of training, operational and airworthiness maintenance aspects of putting an airborne system into a combat theatre.  Perhaps DMR folks could chat with the DAR folks on the issue to see if the interim capability is entirely unfeasible before ruling it out of hand.

Regards
G2G

 

[Navy_Pete]

This is absolutely true.  Hopefully though this highlights the requirement for the new supply ships, as I don't think a lot of Canadians are aware of A) the age of the AORs and B) the fact that they are steam ships!

 

[chrisf]

As far as the tankers go, the average canadian isn't aware of c) they exist

It's not exactly a problem on the forefront of the Canadian mind.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Knowing a family friend's experience (a stoker on HMCS Saguenay) he related about late October 1969 and his Ship's involvement with HMCS Kootenay, I am very much mindful of the discipline and excellent performance of PRO's crew in containing the fire, as you and others have said, BZ to the Ship's crew!

So if PRO is beyond economical repair will the RCN not pursue any capability in advance of the new ships?  I'm not fully up to speed on the complexities of a ship, but one should not mistakenly underestimate the challenges of training, operational and airworthiness maintenance aspects of putting an airborne system into a combat theatre.  Perhaps DMR folks could chat with the DAR folks on the issue to see if the interim capability is entirely unfeasible before ruling it out of hand.

Regards
G2G

In addition to the training, you'd have to figure out sparing for a whole new one off ship, as well as figure out 2nd line repair and training for the FMF... all of that would cost a whack of money, and we don't have any.

Airworthiness adds a lot of paperwork requirements, but a helicopter is a lot easier to maintain while deployed simply due to it's relative size, but there are also a lot less systems that aren't required when you don't live onboard.  There's just a lot more stuff that you need to learn how to run and maintain.

It'd be doable, but it's just not affordable.  I think if PRO is not repairable, we're probably SOL until a new ship comes along.  It really doesn't make sense long term to bring in another ship short term to fill the gap when by the time we get it up and running the new ships will be cutting steel.  We'd also most likely be stuck having to get rid of any ship we picked up, and that can cost millions with all the environmental issues.

 

[suffolkowner]

How long is an acceptable time to go without RAS? Our present plan calls for 18-24 mths between paying off Protecteur and commissioning of the Queenstowns. Supposedly at a cost of $55 million. I'm not sure what's involved in that amount though. I would think it is costing more than that to run our two AOR's right now.
I am curious what happens to all the seamen during that up to 2 yr period or more?

 

[jollyjacktar]

Or in other words, they're going to have to be retrained regardless once the tankers go?

To be Frank, yes.  I was posted to a CPF 2 months after she went into HCM.  I am leaving her soon after taking her our of the refit January of last year.  It was a whole new world for me in many respects.  A steep learning curve, however, it was tempered by my not having to brain dump the equipment that was replaced and brought into the digital age.  I also spent some time on ATH before coming to my present ship.  Each ship was like going from a new generation of technology to the next or better.  Each type is it's own world, all unique in their own way. 

 

[AirDet]

I think the Dutch decided to keep their JSS(?)

What would the amount of a repair have to be to pay off the ship in everyone's opinion.

The Aussies paid 100/150 million for the Bay Class LPD(?). I really think a purchase of the US fast supply ships would make sense, however DND does not like having to think on their feet

To pay off a ship means to retire it.

 

[suffolkowner]

To pay off a ship means to retire it.

I know

I meant how much money would be too much to return to service and thus necessitate her being paid off