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ET's and Stokers the same trade in 2017?

maple360

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We got told this today that this was plan for 2017, I feel like this was said before. Any thoughts?
 

Occam

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Remind me not to be anywhere near the dockyard the first time they let a stoker marry the switchboards...  ;D
 

Pusser

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Occam said:
Remind me not to be anywhere near the dockyard the first time they let a stoker marry the switchboards...  ;D

Actually, way back in the dark ages when we were "diesel mechanics" and not 'marine engineering systems operators, as the only technical people on board, we did it all, including electrical.  So, yes, we married switchboards. 
 

Occam

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You've referred to the reserve trades...I was speaking of the heavies, and I was joking (mostly).
 

Pat in Halifax

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Occam said:
You've referred to the reserve trades...I was speaking of the heavies, and I was joking (mostly).
True, but let's face it, KIN and VIC class are a variation of the propulsion plant of the Future Fleet and both have figured out a watch system where electrical and mechanical trades mirror one another in their on-watch responsibilities. And Pusser, don't belittle the MESO trade-That Operator moniker is really only a word as it is well known now that aging equipment and professional obligation has added a 'maintainer' capability.
I know this was discussed as far back as around 1990 but I am pretty sure it is a go this time 'round.
 

Navy_Pete

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I thought this was one of those 'good ideas' that got binned a while ago.

They still have separate trades in the billets for the new ships, there is no work ongoing on rolling it out for the existing fleet... so if they haven't started the work yet it's way too late already.

There was some talk in the fall about merging MESOs with stokers (same trade, but with a 'maintainers' and stream and an 'operator' one, with reg force doing both, while reservists operators only).  Think that also got shelved as well, but could be wrong (lack of funding?)

Not saying it may not make sense, just that it's a pretty entertaining rumour.
 

Pusser

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Pat in Halifax said:
True, but let's face it, KIN and VIC class are a variation of the propulsion plant of the Future Fleet and both have figured out a watch system where electrical and mechanical trades mirror one another in their on-watch responsibilities. And Pusser, don't belittle the MESO trade-That Operator moniker is really only a word as it is well known now that aging equipment and professional obligation has added a 'maintainer' capability.
I know this was discussed as far back as around 1990 but I am pretty sure it is a go this time 'round.

Fair enough.  My real point was that as DMechs, not ETs, we were working switchboards.
 

Pat in Halifax

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Navy_Pete said:
I thought this was one of those 'good ideas' that got binned a while ago.

They still have separate trades in the billets for the new ships, there is no work ongoing on rolling it out for the existing fleet... so if they haven't started the work yet it's way too late already.

There was some talk in the fall about merging MESOs with stokers (same trade, but with a 'maintainers' and stream and an 'operator' one, with reg force doing both, while reservists operators only).  Think that also got shelved as well, but could be wrong (lack of funding?)

Not saying it may not make sense, just that it's a pretty entertaining rumour.
Quite the contrary. And if you have been to the briefings, a restructuring of the MESO trade or even more is going to happen. Unfortunately, under it's current construct, the MESO trade does not meet one of the ResF mandates; to supplement RegF-MESO is the only Naval Reserve trade without a RegF counterpart.

I am not sure where you are getting your crewing info re new ships-We haven't even arrived at 'final' crew numbers let alone breakdown by department.

As for the Mar Eng - ET thing, like it or not; it is going to happen...and a little faster than some may think. As I told a few others already, you can be a part of it or you can stand by and be told what to do. What's the saying (again)?: "You can lead, you can follow or you can get run over."

Pat
And as most of you on here (this thread) know who I am, if you have ANY ideas, you likely also know where I am located. If not, PM me-I am more than willing to sit down and hear your thoughts.
 
J

jollyjacktar

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Pat.  I do wonder, however, who will be left to see this change.  I am hearing lots of discontent with the direction things have been going re: spec pay, cert 3 trainee's not being made to P2 (in a consistent manner) etc.  I see a lot of pissed off Stokers and have witnessed seeing some smart, young guys leave the CF and a goodly number of experienced guys are looking hard at civilian job opportunities out there.  I know people leave all the time, but from my close vantage point it seems as if they're going to drive many good folks away in frustration.  And it's happening in droves in the ET world too.
 

Pat in Halifax

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I can't answer that but with a $33.6B shipbuilding industry looking for technicians (Mar Eng, ET and HT and NET background WEng as well), people are going to leave. As well, every single MS stoker who attained their Cert 3 in 2013 (except one on a TCat) were promoted to PO2. The Spec Pay thing - I don't know what to say-That one is frustrating the s*** out of the trade leadership as well.
There is some generational animosity between ETech and MarEng but if we are all adults, I think it will work when it comes time to physically sit down in a room. An ad hoc WB has already looked at common training up to QL6 though I think this decision was made before they were completed.

I dare say, if the spec pay thing went status quo tomorrow, there would still be people upset-it is the nature of the beast. Our problem is numbers (same as ETech...and MESO for that matter). It is a snow-ball effect - Fewer people around to do more and more and those fewer start to pack it in increasing the work and therefore stress load more on those of us left behind. Senior leadership of the Navy (and to a degree, the CAF) is aware of this. That is why we are having more 'roundtables' and now monthly telecom OAGs-There are solutions out there and the solution is not necessarily a $$$ one-We just need to come up with some ideas. I wont lie, I was hoping for a eureka moment at this year's OAG and though there was some very good wide-open discussion, there is nothing apparent for the short term.

I suppose the next thing is what (if anything) will be done with your trade? (HTech)

Trust me, if there were a magic wand to wave, it would be done.
 
J

jollyjacktar

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I read the message that came out this past week on part of our future.  There was also mention of a pay review for us as well.  It mentions without going into detail a breakdown and identification of 33 job specific tasks we do, which is then further broken down.  Overall, the message left me with more questions than answers on what the future will bring.  I believe we too are in for a major shake up and change.  For the good or bad at this point I cannot say.  I kind of had the feeling that [they] don't honestly have a clear understanding of the road ahead either.

It has been sad for me to witness the frustrations experienced by the ET/ER folks this past year since we came out of the yard and prior to that.  We've all been working our asses off non-stop with no clear end in sight.  But to see the extra frigging over they seem to be getting makes me shake my head in woe and hope it's not in my trade's future.

You're right.  The one MS we had who attained his Cert 3 did get his P2's.  But, the bitter pill and I totally understand that was the two tier Cert 3 trainees.  The guys who were promoted to P2 while training (as I understand was the norm) and the decision to not continue with that.  It really took the wind from the sails of the MS that were left out in the cold.  How do you keep people motivated this way?

I realize that there will be people moving to private industry when and if the shipbuilding project gets off the ground.  I am of the understanding that the same was true when the Frigate program started.  Speaking for myself, I cannot honestly believe there is anything that would tempt me to work for Irving.
 

Pusser

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jollyjacktar said:
Speaking for myself, I cannot honestly believe there is anything that would tempt me to work for Irving.

I grew up in New Brunswick watching Irving screw over my friends and bully everyone else (including the government).  It would be a cold day in hell before I ever joined that bunch of crooks (not that they're asking…).
 
J

jollyjacktar

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My youngest started there in Sept as a painter.  He tells me he likes working there despite being laid off several times (ala Irving style) already.  He also tells me he was told to stop working so fast on more than one occasion by supervisors as they were charging screwing DND over $200/hr for his labours.  I think he's beginning to get a glimmer of an idea of why any sailor I know hates that yard as much as we do.
 

Tibbson

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jollyjacktar said:
Pat.  I do wonder, however, who will be left to see this change.  I am hearing lots of discontent with the direction things have been going re: spec pay, cert 3 trainee's not being made to P2 (in a consistent manner) etc.  I see a lot of pissed off Stokers and have witnessed seeing some smart, young guys leave the CF and a goodly number of experienced guys are looking hard at civilian job opportunities out there.  I know people leave all the time, but from my close vantage point it seems as if they're going to drive many good folks away in frustration.  And it's happening in droves in the ET world too.

With the number of trades and sub-sets of trades now getting Spec 1 or Spec 2....shouldn't we just be raising the base pay for the ranks?
 

maple360

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As the guy at the bottom of the pole, I find the trade great. The problem comes in when there is WORK to be done and the bosses feel that we should take part in store ship/cleaning stations/hands fall in/ etc when we have Rod or DG problems that need to be sorted or we don't go home type thing. I think the best one I had to deal with is trying to find time to train while doing a refit, because the time starts ticking on those packages while only getting a few hours a month to sit down and learn about the gear.

As for this ET and Stoker merging. The problem is going to be 10x more then it is now. The fives are going to be what you have to specialize in, and from the feedback I'm getting, everyone will go towards the ET side and some will be forced to go stoker side. And telling a guy he cant do what he wanted to do at the recruitment center, well... he's just going to tell the boss to pound sand and VR. CSE is having the same problem with weapons tech and sonar tech.

 

Pusser

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maple360 said:
As the guy at the bottom of the pole, I find the trade great. The problem comes in when there is WORK to be done and the bosses feel that we should take part in store ship/cleaning stations/hands fall in/ etc when we have Rod or DG problems that need to be sorted or we don't go home type thing.

What makes you think that those things are not WORK or that they are less important?  Everybody eats, so everybody can store ship.
 
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jollyjacktar

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What he's getting at, and I share his frustration as a supervisor is that we are:
1.  usually short manned, needing to complete CM and PM with a shortage of parts and tools and getting heat from above if it's not accomplished;
2.  training frequently falls by the wayside to accomplish # 1;
3.  all the other myriad of duties that come down in a the run of a day, (multiple x's storing parties, cleaning stations, brow/quartermaster etc etc) can seem to make it difficult to get to do one's primary job. #1 and #2. 

Yes, Pusser,  ::) # 3 is important too but sometimes it gets to be a little much.  You can't be everywhere or do everything at once and the Jr's if not all of us feel like a Stretch Armstrong doll more times than not.
 

Pat in Halifax

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You need to remember too, a technician's primary alongside job is maintenance (and to a degree at sea as well). A recent study by F4Eng of 5 ships (3 east, 2 west) indicated that actual wrench turning time is less than 15% of the time. We send technicians through a myriad of in depth technical training to do things that require minimal training. It is called bang for the buck and right now we are falling behind. Is this amalgamation the cure? Nope, nor will it solve the 15% issue but like change, it is inevitable, and though not necessarily always good, I don't think this is a horrible move. Again, when the ROD or DG or steering is worked on, usually an ET and ER are paired. From a watch keeping perspective, VIC class employs ETechs and Cert 2s doing the same thing - as the OpCert. Like it or not, we are already doing it-This will just formalize it.

All ship evolutions alongside are a fact of life but with recent CDS direction and essentially the gradual lessening of shore support, we have been directed to increase available maintenance time by 15% (to start). How this will get done, I am sure many have their ideas but then that is a discussion for another thread. That said, for those doubting the above quoted figures, as soon as we correlate it all, I will put the DIN link on here.

Pat
 

maple360

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Pusser said:
What makes you think that those things are not WORK or that they are less important?  Everybody eats, so everybody can store ship.

I agree 100%, but at the same time one could say that if people have to stay behind because they got pulled to do that. Maybe secure shouldn't get piped until the job is done. ya....... no lol
 
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