Expansion of the Medical Reserve

[HCA]

While it doesn’t seem to be in vogue to discuss the expansion of the Medical Reserve to meet our current and future international and domestic operational needs, that is exactly what I would like to make an argument for right now.  I would like to create a discussion that focuses on our current situation and get some ideas into public forum on how we can help fix some of these problems.

First some history.  In joined my current unit now 22 years ago, still in high school with only vague ideas of what I was going to do with my life.  At the time the unit was approx 25 pers strong.  Over the last 22 years I have watched and actively assisted, first as a stint as recruiting NCO then years later as recruiting officer the growth of the unit to over 100 personnel in the late 1990’s.  I have also watched the unit shrink, over the last half decade of restrictions, to now under 70 personnel. 

While I agree we have to do our very best to try and recruit trained medical professionals, I submit that until we fix the systemic problems that the Medical Reserve units have, we will not be entirely successful in this area.  I speak of the well known fact that we have very low levels of modern medical equipment.  Any medical professional worth his or her salt is going to want to see the equipment and tools that the Forces is going to ask them to use. While we now have the METIMAN simulator, which by all accounts is a great piece of kit, this is only one step down a much longer road.

We also need to further address the training requirements of the medical professional.  These people for the most part are already established in a very demanding field with almost limitless employment opportunities.  Our current rates of pay and long courses make it very difficult for medical professionals to rise in rank and take on new opportunities.

There is another solution.  When you examine the majority of personnel that are nurses, doctors and paramedics in our units I submit that the one common denominator that you will find in the majority of the cases is that they joined the forces BEFORE they went into the medical profession.  Of our two paramedical personnel that are being listed for TF 1-08 and the now 5 pers undergoing Bison dvr trg for the same Roto and our Adjt going as a CIMIC officer, not one of them was a medical professional before they joined.  We need to get back to thinking longer term.  When you examine the leadership positions in my unit you will find that under the new restrictions most of us would not be allowed to join.  Where will the leaders of tomorrow come from?

Due to the cutback in new members joining the unit we have at this time 1 MCpl in the unit. (paramedic, possibly going overseas)  We have a small number of Cpl’s with promise but they are still very junior and some of the best of them are potentially heading overseas as Bison dvrs.

We all know how many recruits it takes to make one MCpl.  The time and course requirements to make a MCpl are very high. The attrition rate is massive but it can be done.  You have to get them when they are finishing high school, when they are keen, when they have time, before their careers are started.  BMQ, SQ, QL3, QL4, PLQ.  By my count this is 25+ weeks of courses.  Most of the time the young, who are just starting their post high school education, can find the time for this kind amount of commitment.  The courses at all the schools are still laid out for high school and university schedules.

While this timeline can be decreased by approx 3 weeks for the PCP trained recruit, I would say that for most of these people this is too much trg that would get in the way of their civilian career. 

We need to turn the recruiting taps back on, allow local CO’s the flexibility to solve the problems posed to them.  I applaud the long awaited Reserve PCP program.  (We have one Sgt starting later this year) it is just the start of the direction we need to go on a much more massive basis.

We now have a part time PCP program in BC.  I can’t imagine a more cost effective and better setup for the medical reservist.  The part time program “consists of nine workshops (each comprised of three classroom days), five evaluation sessions plus clinical and preceptorship time. The clinical and ambulance preceptorship time must be completed within three months following the classroom portion. Independent study makes up a large component of this program. Scheduling of each workshop is normally at three to four week intervals dependent on the class location and requirements of the participants.”

My career path would see the 17-19 year old recruit progressing through BMQ, SQ, and QL3 over their first 2 years. During this time they become familiar with all the operational requirements and soldier skills required to deploy a medical facility to the field.  Some time between QL3 and 4 or after QL4 our members would start the part time program.  During their time at the Justice Institute they would be being paid on a part time basis for their schooling rather and only attending the unit on a minimal basis. (one maybe two Thurs nights/month)  Finally they would do their 3 week class B “clinical and preceptorship time”

After the reserve QL4 they are now qualified to the Regular Force QL3 level.  We can deploy them overseas. (Remember these are young, keen people here that really want to get overseas and will leave to another trade if they can’t see a path, as they have been doing over the last 5 years.)

When they are done they can go back to civilian careers, finish school, join the reg force, stay in the reserves, be offered the Reg Force QL4, start PLQ trg, etc.  The options are only constrained by our lack of imagination and our willingness to assume a little bit of risk.

Will there be risk?  Of course. Some people will try to abuse the system. Get a free ride.  We need to trust the CO’s and their staff’s in the local units to weed out these people.  Only the very best that we are sure are mature enough and responsible enough will be offered the PCP training.  Will there be errors. Probably.  Will we have a lot more PCP personnel ready to deploy in a few years. Absolutely.

Thoughts?

 

[old medic]

Regarding your point of the reserve units having a low level of medical equipment.
An easily observable item. The solution, would appear simple. Buy the gear.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/54283/post-507898.html#msg507898

Her analysis showed that, to achieve a common standard, we required approx 6.4 M to buy all the kit (less veh). This would have given the units a Reserve Field Eqpt Table (true, it's a table rather than an actual entitlement like a CFFET).

Permanent, current equipment, when illustrated against other expenditures would be easily
attainable.  When compared to other costs, say three to five million dollars for fuel for a 35 day frigate patrol,
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/55975/post-512938.html#msg512938
the medical equipment would go a long way to expanding the reserve.

Any medical professional worth his or her salt is going to want to see the equipment and tools that the Forces is going to ask them to use. While we now have the METIMAN simulator, which by all accounts is a great piece of kit, this is only one step down a much longer road.

Agreed. To entice a medical professional to devote their little remaining time away from a practice, civilian hospital,
ward, or ambulance, we are also competing with any number of service clubs, organizations and local groups.
Poorly equipped units with antique gear keeps the professionals away.

Simple items are being ignored by CFMG. Google the public website, which they only recently began
to update (with prodding): 
http://www.dnd.ca/health/news_pubs/hs_factsheets/engraph/sheet-09_e.asp

Years out of date. References Medical Companies, and a brief mention that something called a PRL exists,
without even a link to the PRL website pages. If someone does manage to find the PRL pages;
http://www.forces.gc.ca/health/recruiting/engraph/about_prl_e.asp
The page is both out of date (still showing phase 1), and not in plain English.

Walk into a clinic with a copy of this and ask someone what it means:

4. In order to evaluate the health services reserve role 3 capability within the SRR/SHR, the HS Res WG has canvassed selected SRR/SHR members through a national survey. The analysis of the survey results indicates a requirement for an HS Res organization that is adapted to the specific situation of health care providers.

Unless your already in, the abbreviations and acronyms are meaningless.

There have been upgrades lately, this page is an improvement:
http://www.forces.gc.ca/health/physician/engraph/home_e.asp
However, many other pages need work or should disappear completely to prevent search engines from misdirecting
the curious.

I've also noticed a lack of effective public affairs / public relations on the part of CFMG and the current operations.
They appear to be missing the boat on getting Health Services into the public eye on nearly a daily basis.

By my count this is 25+ weeks of courses.  Most of the time the young, who are just starting their post high school education, can find the time for this kind amount of commitment.  The courses at all the schools are still laid out for high school and university schedules.

Once again, on the money.  Just to add to this, Nurses, Paramedics and others working full time at the municipal
and provincial level need to plan that time off well in advance. Using myself as an example, I need to book my vacation
by March 1st, or I'm probably not getting it.
(another example from a NO here: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/54317.0.html) 
CFHS needs to work on facilitating this, Or the professionals they do recruit will not be able to provide commitment in return.

 

[Donut]

+1 to both of these, with not a whole heck of a lot to add.  As one of the aforementioned PCPs, and a former (current??) recruiting nco (and UIO), Ii believe this would go a long way to solving our problems.

Ref OM's comment about the lack of public affaires within the HS,

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/54251/post-513952;topicseen#new

occured at UBC, about 5 Km from my office.  In fact, the CFRC team that presented this probably drove PAST MY OFFICE on their way to this.  How did I find out?  On Army.ca


While I think that accepting a 17 year old high school student on the basis of "I want to be a doctor someday" may be a bit too much risk under this proposal, accepting the 4th yr BioChem major, 2nd in his class, who has spent some time striving for this goal on their own would be reasonable.  The 17 year old who say's "I'm going to be a Paramedic" would also, in my opinion, be a reasonable risk to take.  The first has an almost infentisimal chance of fulfilling his objective, the last two would seem to me to be at the LOD, and the army may be the best push off they can get.

"Will there be risk?  Of course. Some people will try to abuse the system. Get a free ride.  We need to trust the CO’s and their staff’s in the local units to weed out these people.  Only the very best that we are sure are mature enough and responsible enough will be offered the PCP training.  Will there be errors. Probably.  Will we have a lot more PCP personnel ready to deploy in a few years. Absolutely."

Agreed, Sir.

DF

 

[DSB]

I know many members of my unit who became nurses, parmedics,x-ray techs, dentists, and even doctors after being exposed to the medical field through working as a Med A/Tech.  I was all for High school students and grads coming in. 

In our unit we have a disproportionate number of mid to senior level members.  When I first joined up we were clearly bottom heavy, (Pte/Cpl). 

The new recruiting methodology is off the mark a bit.

 

[vincent.escanlar]

Ref OM's comment about the lack of public affaires within the HS,

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/54251/post-513952;topicseen#new

occured at UBC, about 5 Km from my office.  In fact, the CFRC team that presented this probably drove PAST MY OFFICE on their way to this.  How did I find out?  On Army.ca

Little clarification:  the conference was actually at a hotel in Richmond, but all of the UBC doctors-to-be were there.  Point certainly well made though:  from my own little experience so far I think there's a lot of HS stories that would make good "public eye" material.  An LCdr recently returned from the hospital in Kandahar gave an amazing (unclassified) talk at the Base Hospital here last week:  photos of what the practice is like; emphasis on the care provided to civilians, Afghan army and police (who would have nowhere else to turn); clinical examples of the never-in-Canada experiences to learn from; the impact an MO and other HS staff can have there.  It reminded a lot of us why we joined in the first place; and I imagine could draw a few new faces to the recruiting office, or at least get people thinking that way, if a presentation like that could go public.

From the MOTP-recruiting perspective, when I was thinking of signing up I would've liked to have seen some personal stories of those already in.  Similar to the videos of MOs on the new physician recruiting site (the same videos were available only on CD from the recruiting office before), but of people still earlier on - med students or residents.  Just making it known among students and residents that their classmates are in the CF could raise the profile - maybe an article or an ad when one of us signs on, or graduates, or gets an award or something like that.  (I managed to get some...  but I'm not photogenic enough for the public, lol.)

(Sorry about the thread hijack.)

 

[Role3_4ever]

I was RSS many years ago so some experience with the Res F but not too much.  I will float an idea (fire away).  The 10/90 Fd Hosp...
Given that many of the Res F units are in cities, I always wondered if it would be easier to recruit licensed professionals (docs, nurses, lab/xray techs and of course paramedics) for Role 3 type functions. The idea I would float is a virtual Role 3 organization that perhaps spans several provinces and is composed of these clinicians along with a small full time cadre.  The virtual org would assemble once or twice per year and fall in an Advanced Surgical Centre for trg purposes.  This would require a suite of Role 3 eqpt held/maintained somewhere (Pet, CMTC?) by a small full time staff.  I guess I am suggesting that we estab a Res Fd Hosp, based in one location but manned regionally...

Fire away! :threat:

 

[Staff Weenie]

HSO - you've pretty much hit the nail on the head. Our current 'recruiting plan' is inherently self destructive. What I find incredibly offensive, is to have the Rx2000 folks tell me that our Units haven't done enough to recruit civilian Docs & Paramedics. I was the Unit Recr Offr in Hamilton in 92 to 94 - we tried everything to get Docs and Paramedics - they just wouldn't join for a whole variety of reasons.

Getting 17 yr old students, and Univ students, was easy though - and as everybody here has noted - they want to work, and they want $$$, and they're willing to take the crap to get the payoff!

Everybody is also correct in that many of the clinicians in my unit (and former unit) were home grown. They were young people who had a dream, or goal, of being involved in the medical field, and a desire to join the CF. We often gave them that final push in the right direction, and in many cases, the cash needed, to go into a clinical field. Why can't the HQ folks see this?

If money were no problem, I'd suggest we focus on these young folks and do something like a RESO program for NCOs - involving a solid guarantee of three summers of employment (RESO was approx 12 weeks each summer, for three years, depending on MOC - paid for chunks of my Univ costs & lots of beer too!).

So - here's my next glue-sniffing inspired thought (okay - no glue involved, but still pumping T3 and muscle relaxants like candy.....)

First Summer - BMQ, SQ, Dvr Wh, and Comms trg - makes them useful in the field, even if not Med Tech trained.
Second Summer - field and clinical trg - in 12 weeks, they could get the field trg and most of the JI PCP (I might be off by a few weeks here - it's the concept I'm looking at).
Third Summer - any remaining JI PCP trg req, and then lots of hands on employment in clinics, or if possible - ride-along programs in urban centres.....

Drawbacks:

Cost - this would cost money, lots of money - but they'd all be deployable - and depending on their home Province, they may just get permanent employment from it - a big recruiting incentive - it may even be cheaper than the widescale ASD being examined.
Maintenance of Clinical Skills - hard to do on a Cl A basis if you're not doing this as a civilian - but I also know that the Reg F is having a lot of trouble getting the MCSP done universally.
Throughput of the CFMSS - they are always telling us that they don't have enough classrooms to expand Res F trg, or that CFB Borden doesn't have the R&Q capability to handle us - then look into contracting out other facilities. There are other Prov and Fed Govt owned facilities that are often avail in the summer.
Abuse of the System - It's not just HSS that has folks enrol to get the $$ for school and then split. It's a calculated risk. But look at the upside - this is the Fed Govt's money - and if it produces Paramedics with self-discipline and other positive skill sets from the CF, who then go out into the civilian world to work, then Canada as a whole benefits anyway. It's a risk worth taking, as most folks here seem to agree.

The way we used to do business worked to get our numbers up - but didn't produce enough folks with the clinical skills sets that could be deployed. The current Res Tm recruiting plan is killing the units - and it doesn't get the clinicians we need. So, we need to come up with a way that brings in the people, and gives them the training req to do the job.

Role 3 - What you're describing was the original intention of the PRL. It's original TO&E was designed around the 55 positions of an ASC(-) (less non-clinicians, etc). It had a guaranteeing factor of 5:1=6 applied, for a total establishment of 330 positions. The hope was that it could then 'produce' on demand an ASC(-) worth of clinical folks. But, it mutated at birth, and was never the same. The concept of trg the folks together as an ASC, on a pool of kit (i.e. at the Fd Hosp), never survived either. Too bad!

Don't the Brits have an 'ASC' type facility set up in a hanger somewhere that their Territorials fall in on to train in a Role 3 context?

Not a bad idea at all - there's some issues - but nothing that money and a good plan can't fix.

 

[medaid]

The splitting up of the JI PCP program into two summers would be extremely counter productive in my opinion. The amount of knowledge required for each of our soldiers to retain and practice during the year would be severely lacking. It will almost be like asking them to provide C-Spine control with one arm tied behind their back. In the best case scenario, we should abandon the St John's created courses period. There should be no more AMFR2, and we should move towards streamlining the training, as per our objector, to give our soldier RELEVANT skills, the exact same ones as their civilian counterparts. That being said, it would be more effective to send our Reserve soldiers out to obtain their EMR training as part of their DP1 trades training. This would be the best practice on two fold.

- 1) They are now able to provide proper care expected of them, with the exceptions to certain drug administrations which the PCPs would have, if they had their protocols. In BC, they would have Entinox, O2 and Nitro administration, more then enough for some of the duties they are expected to perform.

- 2) Having EMR will soon be the only standard accepted prior to PCP in BC (I may be wrong about this, I'm slightly dated on that one). I find that we lose many of our soldiers through the first few years of service, either due to school commitments, or other issues, which just cannot justify the loss of investment in a PCP, which when you look at it is quite substantive to ask a reserve unit, or CF H Svc G to dish out.

To eliminate, or attempt to curb as much of the attrition both through funds and soldiers, is that we inform the individuals that they will get what they put in. Another words, all of our soldiers will receive their EMR. That is a promise. However, they will not all receive PCP. Only those soldiers who are willing to serve a tour overseas, committ to x, y and z will receive PCP training. This, I believe is reasonable in the Reserve world.

PCP should be done on a continuous full time course, regardless of time. Another words, if a soldier is eligible for PCP after his/her EMR training, and has been deemed suitable by the unit to progress further in their pre-hospital medical care training, then they should go when ever a course is available at the JI. These members should NOT be put into an all military class, they should NOT be in combats, but rather the prescribed uniforms of the academy. I understand that since it's the Forces paying for your bill, why should you not adhere to the dress regs, and wear what is ordered of you. Well, the ROTP candidates who go to UBC dont wear their CFs to school, so logically why should the BC JI students? Also, not standing out, is a good thing. No?

I fully understand that there will be trade offs to what I am proposing, one argument is that we will never get anyone to deploy or join! My argument however, is that we may get better quality applicants, and more individuals who are willing to do this, if we can explain and implement the recruiting properly. There is a vast amount of untapped resources out there who, wish to join the military, but dont want to do the Cbt Arms stuff, who very likely is interested in the CSS:Medical type of things. Not to mention the large pool of young men and women who want to work for the local ambulance services, who cant exactly afford the training at the moment. The experience they will be able to take with them to their local services afterwards will be immense. Things like tactical medicine, which with a few of the EMS services moving towards tactical medical units, it is a plus. Isn't one of the goals, support our troops and help them acquire a job on civi side? Well, they wont have a tough time finding a job after doing a tour or two in the Box, and a few at local bases.

Just my 0.02 Rupees

 

[Staff Weenie]

MedTech - the core clinical skill set delivered can be argued until the cows come home - I'm constantly told by the folks here that in Ontario, the JI course we've purchased for the CF really isn't worth squat in the Province's eyes. It's out of my lane, so I shouldn't  comment.

That said - I think we agree on some basics - we need to commit to these people, and then deliver the relevant training in a timely fashion that befits the availability of most of the target population.

Attrition, as you've noted, can be high at the junior levels - but it has actually gone done significantly from the early 1990's, when up to 40% of the GMT students in Hamilton would be RTU as trg failures or voluntary withdrawl. It's a risk, but there's enough data available that it could actually be a well calculated risk. Note, that in my plan, they don't start the expensive clinical trg until their second summer. That way, if they don't fit the bill, or decide to try something else in the CF, they don't represent a total loss of $$$ to the Crown.

Your concept of delivering a minimum standard to all, and then a higher standard to the dedicated and available is recognized, and may well be the way our HS Res F moves in the next few years.

I think that the only issue I disagree with, is running the course in civilian clothing. I've heard from a number of Reg F Sgt/WO that the first groups through the JI came out with the mindset of a civilian paramedic, just 10 minutes tops from a major trauma centre. Making them safely deployable required some 'readjustment'. I believe that the current training regimes have effectively countered this. But, our people need to remember at all times that they are soldiers.

 

[medaid]

Indeed, it seems that the different provinces have different standards when it comes to the delivery of the EMR/PCP and other higher training, however, the end result is pretty much the same. The core competencies must be the same, as it is regulated by a national standard, however every province may throw in its own protocols, and things that make the program unique. Hence, brings in another problem with regards to licencing. Right now we're taking almost anyone with a PCP licence, provided they're a right fit all around, however, how do we address the slight variances with regards to the provincial protocols and standards?

I agree with the fact that our soldiers must at all times remember that they are soldiers, and behave, and dress accordingly. The problem with our people thinking slightly civilian, is the problem with regards to having them complete a civilian course. I think if the CF could train its own cadre of PCP instructors, from the pool of qualified soldiers, i.e those with civilian on car experience, and a Cpl/MCpl/Sgt level of instruction and leadership, will most definitely address the problem.

The reason, which I proposed the civilian dress on civilian course, is that there are some resentment towards the soldiers on some of the courses, that I have heard from instructors. Not so much as to them being soldiers, as to their performance. I don't know, I think I'm getting side tracked here.

I do believe having EMR/PCP instructors in the CF will alleviate the problem of our soldiers going CIVI in their mind set, and be able to instill the proper military mind set as well. However, I think the EMR/PCP should be runned as a professional level training course, another words, less c*ck should be applied, and more attention on the materials at hand.

 

[Staff Weenie]

I'm entirely on the same net as you WRT your final point - professionalism!

I may get shot for saying this, but over the years, I've often observed the Res F dish out more crap on any given course or FTX than the Reg F. And likewise, the Cadets doled out mounds of needless abuse (I've got wacks of horror stories from a tasking in Blackdown...). It's almost a perception that we have to be better than them to get credibility. But, credibility comes from professionalism and capability. It's one of the things I like the most about being in the H Svcs. I've watched Sgt & WO yield gracefully to Pte/Cpl with greater civy clinical skills when required - because you can respect both the rank and the professionalism.

In my doped-out dream world, the CFMSS would be greatly expanded, and we would employ a mix of civilian instructors, and CF pers (Reg & Res - as long as they've got the skills) to teach our own people those skills which we determine we need to support the full range of CF operations and in-garrison care.

I'll go check in to my rubber room now - they used to have them on the third floor here - I wonder if they've still got them.....

 

[medaid]

Yes  That would be the perfect world for CFMSS. Along the lines of recognizing civilian qualifications. We need to review our policy with regards to PLAs and recruiting of MO/NOs. I have recently moved into a new office (rcting) which I have heard many stories on how we lost good applicants, because of our poorly streamlined transition from Civi-Mil qualifications.

1) We need to realise that just because the licence expired on the MO's application, it does NOT MEAN that they are NOT a doctor anymore! There is absolutely no point in sending the file back, requesting the up to date licence to be enclosed, then send it back, just to be sitting on someones 'IN BASKET' until the damn licence expires again! I know the last time I checked, we were close to losing a very competent, and experienced doctor, because that had happened.

2) PLAs. Albeit that it is useful and an important part of the bridging process and recognition, the current method of doing it seems extremely long and tedious. Having to send one almost every year for some of our members, the losing of these PLAs, and the lack of urgency when we're screaming for MedTechs in the Box, is leading to many discontent, and irate soldiers putting in for releases or OTing.

If we want to attract more clinicians, we NEED to streamline the process which would cut down the turn around time, recognise the qualifications and thus enabling us to further train and deploy these personnel to areas where they are needed the most. NOT sitting around every Thursday night wandering when the Army will decide to give them the vital courses that they need to be an effective member of the health services team. i.e. does a nurse with 9 years experience working in an ER or OR in a major metro hospital really need BNOC to teach them how to NURSE?!

This is the same for MedTechs, the back bone of our health services. We've recently lost an Advanced Care Paramedic from my unit, who had not been recognised for his skills, and were not allowed to instruct or aid in training, because he lacked PLQ. I'm sorry, but... who knows more about pre-hospital care then a ACP or a CCP? Not to bash the CF's medical training, and I know I will most likely BE shot for this, but, we are employing individuals who does the MedTech job, one night a week, one weekend a month or on a Class B contract to handle training. Many of these individuals do not have PCP, let alone ACP or CCP. Yet, because of their ranks, they are put in charge of training. Dictating what is most important, and how things should be done. While a perfectly good PCP/ACP/CCP is sitting in the class room no doubt laughing at the inexperience some of these individuals have when it comes to actual trauma care.

I guess what I am proposing is split training to two different sides of the house. Military: All the fun cam up, up-tent-down-tent and important field craft things to individuals who have little actual clinical experience. Leave the Clinical and Care side to the PCP/ACP/CCP, NO and MO. I say this because I felt the biggest loss when the soldier with ACP put in for release. A perfectly good instructor who taught many of our reg force candidates at the JI, left because he cant instruct on the military side to his fellow reservists.

 

[Staff Weenie]

I've seen this happen many times......many, many, many times..........

In fact, there's been times when I've contemplated listing CFRC and CF H Svcs Gp HQ as En Force....

The worst was having the RCR Battle School provide Standards for an in-house QL3 Med Tech crse I was tasked to run. It became known as 'the course from hell'...... They second-guessed every instructors quals - we had a Res F MCpl MP who was a civy ACP hired on a Pers Svcs contract as an instructor (..."why is that instructor not in uniform...how is he qualified to teach"...). I also has a non-JLC Cpl who was an EMCA teaching (same line of questions on how he could teach). I believe that one unit, whit a Pte who had a PhD in Neurobiology was teaching, and they tried to shut him down - the answer was 'in the real world, they call him Doctor - can he teach now'.

Wildly off topic here. But we do agree on the core concepts of improving the training we deliver, and the means to do it.

 

[medaid]

We do  ;D but unfortunately, it us with a few other against the rest of the CFMSS. I dont think they'll listen to me very much  Btw is there room in that nice little rubber room of yours? I think I may need to lock myself up for spewing crazy sense...