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F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF)

  • Thread starter Thread starter Sharpey
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The CF's "competition" for the F-15 vs F-16 vs F-18, waaaaay back when, was done by engineers, mostly serving AERE officers, with some pilots looking over their shoulders. The bidders produced (literally) tons of data that had to be analyzed in meticulous detail. Maybe a few CF officers went for "rides" in the competing aircraft, but the real "competition" was done at desks, in Ottawa, with primitive (by today's standards) desk top and mainframe computers and hand held calculators. The military did not get to say "best," "better," and "good enough," as I recall, they got to say "compliant" or "not compliant" and then the accountants took over for the second phase of the competition.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
The military did not get to say "best," "better," and "good enough," as I recall, they got to say "compliant" or "not compliant" and then the accountants took over for the second phase of the competition.

Here (again) we run up against the problem of not having a clearly defined defence policy.  How can you determine if ANY of the aircraft in a competition are "compliant" or "not compliant" if there is no clear direction given on what you want/expect/need the aircraft (ship, armoured vehicle, personal weapon, support weapon, radio, etc...) to do?

 
GR66 said:
Here (again) we run up against the problem of not having a clearly defined defence policy.  How can you determine if ANY of the aircraft in a competition are "compliant" or "not compliant" if there is no clear direction given on what you want/expect/need the aircraft (ship, armoured vehicle, personal weapon, support weapon, radio, etc...) to do?

why you know from what the elected politicians say they need for that flavour of the week
 
Oldgateboatdriver said:
Actually, R.A.A.G., the Nafta rules on require that Canada treat other member nation's businesses the same way they treat Canadian companies. Since there ain't no Canadian fighter-bomber manufacturer, there ain't no need to include American or Mexican (if any) manufacturers. Besides, military procurement is specifically excluded.

Much appreciate the feedback. I used NAFTA as a possible example. However, there is an article in todays Ottawa Citizen that quotes Alan Williams, who signed the original F-35 memo that brought Canada into the program, stating that Canada, in an open competition, would likely be unable to prevent L-M from bidding.
 
The Canadian Press's take on the statement that cancelling the F-35'll gut Canada's aerospace industry, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act:
"He's not giving shipbuilding anything; he's merely talking about cratering our aerospace industry, which is, as I say, bad policy.... I don't understand where they're going with this." — Conservative Leader Stephen Harper on Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau's promise to scrap the F-35 stealth fighter program and channel the savings into naval shipbuilding.


One of the cornerstones of the Liberal defence policy is to formally opt out of the Conservative government's plan to acquire 65 F-35 stealth fighter jets to replace the Air Force's aging fleet of 1980s vintage CF-18s.

A Liberal government would hold an open competition among the lower-cost competitors, Trudeau has said, noting that there would be no penalty for withdrawing from the F-35 project. Harper said Monday that would "crater" the aerospace industry, particularly in Trudeau's backyard of Montreal.

Would it?

Spoiler alert: The Canadian Press Baloney Meter is a dispassionate examination of political statements culminating in a ranking of accuracy on a scale of ``no baloney'' to ``full of baloney'' (complete methodology below).

This one earns a rating of a lot of baloney. Here's why.

THE FACTS

In the summer of 2010, the Conservative government signalled its intention to buy the F-35, but did not sign a purchase contract at the time.

Scathing reports from both the auditor general and the parliamentary budget office accused National Defence and Public Works of lowballing the enormous cost of the program and of not doing enough homework on alternatives.

Consequently, the program was put on hold and the Conservatives elected to extend the life of the CF-18s until 2025, forcing the final decision on a future government.

The Lockheed Martin-built F-35 — at US $382 billion — is the most costly weapons program in U.S. military history, one plagued with delays and technical bugs, many of which are related to the development of the fighter's software.

But it is also one of the most sophisticated military/industrial complex programs in history, where partner nations help Washington finance the development of the aircraft in return for not only a favourable purchase price, but access to sub-contracts for each nation's aerospace companies.

As of December 2014, 33 Canadian companies have won US $637 million in contracts for both F-35 production and sustainment, according to industrial participation tabled in Parliament by Industry Canada. The same document estimates that over the 40-year lifespan of the aircraft, aerospace firms in this country could receive a total of $10.17 billion.

Since there is no signed agreement, Canada would not face contract penalties for withdrawal —  but the aerospace industry would likely fall out of favour, a senior Lockheed Martin executive warned.

"If, in fact, the Canadian government were to decide not to select the F-35, we will certainly honour the contracts that we have here with the Canadian industry, but our approach in the future would be to try to do business with the industries that are in the countries that are buying the airplane," Orlando Carvalho, executive vice-president of aeronautics at Lockheed Martin, said in a 2013 speech in Montreal.

Industry supporters of the F-35 have also suggested the existing contracts could be in danger of not being renewed if Canada chose to buy elsewhere.

Data from the Aerospace Industries Association of Canada shows there are more than 700 companies of all sizes from coast to coast, employing of more than 180,000 workers, and with net revenue in 2014 of $27.7 billion.

Based upon current figures, the F-35 represents approximately 2.29 per cent of the industry's total revenue.

Almost three-quarters of the industry is dedicated to manufacturing, while the rest does repair and overhaul. The majority of the growth in the next six years is expected to be in the commercial aircraft market.

WHAT THE EXPERTS SAY

Elinor Sloan, a professor of international relations at Carleton University and former senior analyst at National Defence, says choosing another aircraft wouldn't be the end of the world.

"Obviously if we didn't buy that aircraft we wouldn't get those benefits, but that's not to say we wouldn't get benefits from purchasing a different American aircraft," said Sloan, who noted the F-35 is different from traditional procurements which obliged defence contractors to spend the equivalent of the equipment purchase price in Canada.

"A lot of the (F-35) benefits, of course, are projected. There are projections as to the number of jobs are going to be created. We won't know it until it happens."

Going with another aircraft could in fact provide more certainty to the aerospace industry because under a traditional benefits arrangement, the spending would be guaranteed, said defence analyst Dave Perry of the Canadian Global Affairs Institute.

What Canada would lose by dropping out of the F-35 program would be access to the cutting-edge technology and know-how that's going into the jet, he said.

It's specious of Harper to claim disaster would follow a withdrawal decision, since the Conservative government itself left the door open to leaving, Perry added.

"We have made no decision and made no progress on making a decision in the last year-and-a-half. The government has been very diligent and very consistent in saying it is reviewing all options."

Adding to the uncertainty, there has also been significant concern in the Canadian aerospace industry that much of the sustainment work on the F-35 would be conducted in the U.S., he said.

THE VERDICT

Withdrawing from the F-35 program would almost certainly endanger the renewal of ongoing contracts and preclude Canadian aerospace companies from bidding on future stealth fighter work.

But there is also the potential for those losses to be mitigated — or even erased. For that reason, Harper's claim earns the rating of "a lot of baloney."

METHODOLOGY

The Baloney Meter is a project of The Canadian Press that examines the level of accuracy in statements made by politicians. Each claim is researched and assigned a rating based on the following scale:

No baloney — the statement is completely accurate

A little baloney — the statement is mostly accurate but more information is required

Some baloney — the statement is partly accurate but important details are missing

A lot of baloney — the statement is mostly inaccurate but contains elements of truth

Full of baloney — the statement is completely inaccurate

Murray Brewster, The Canadian Press
 
E.R. Campbell said:
The CF's "competition" for the F-15 vs F-16 vs F-18, waaaaay back when, was done by engineers, mostly serving AERE officers, with some pilots looking over their shoulders. The bidders produced (literally) tons of data that had to be analyzed in meticulous detail. Maybe a few CF officers went for "rides" in the competing aircraft, but the real "competition" was done at desks, in Ottawa, with primitive (by today's standards) desk top and mainframe computers and hand held calculators. The military did not get to say "best," "better," and "good enough," as I recall, they got to say "compliant" or "not compliant" and then the accountants took over for the second phase of the competition.

And that is the only notion of "competition" that is valid. Some measure of that, if not a complete (enough) version, has been done.

The Opposition, including the Media Party, and hence the general public (which is clueless), seem to envisage a fly-off. They'll likely not be satisfied with anything less than speed trials and mock dogfights.

I also want to see all of the "competitor" aircraft held to the same lifetime cost calculations that were forced upon the F35, for which the government received blame for "lowballing the enormous cost of the program" (from the article posted minutes ago). That has either not been done, or has been kept from view by somebody.

None of the other aircraft will give Canadian industry the same benefits.

None are likely to be any cheaper, especially long-term (unique-to-us upgrades or outright replacement due to obsolescence).

None are likely to be any more effective, and all will most likely be much less effective over time.
 
GR66 said:
Here (again) we run up against the problem of not having a clearly defined defence policy.  How can you determine if ANY of the aircraft in a competition are "compliant" or "not compliant" if there is no clear direction given on what you want/expect/need the aircraft (ship, armoured vehicle, personal weapon, support weapon, radio, etc...) to do?


There was a specification: a military/system specification and a government policy regarding what and how much. I think it (they) involved a performance spec ~ how high? how fast? what weapons load? reliability/availability/maintainability, etc; a support systems spec; and a financial spec ~ capital costs, life cycle costs, industrial benefits and so on. I do know that almost everyone and his dog, pilots, maintainers, trainers, personnel planners, financial people, construction folks, C3 experts and many others had to review and sign off on various aspects of the "competition." I believe we got a good aircraft, which met our well documented needs and the government's policy goals, too, at a fair price. I don't know how much different defence procurement is now than it was in the 1980s. I can tell you that we, in DND, had many, many complaints about ourselves and our "partners" in Industry Canada and Supply and Services. But, despite all those problems the system worked for us on that project.
 
Liberal Policy - Canadian aerospace gets 100% of the value of ~65 aircraft (offset with paper for schools on reserves and other Industrial and Regional Benefits).

Conservative Policy - Canadian aerospace gets whatever chunk of 2000 to 3000 aircraft that it can based on being able to produce necessary parts of good quality and reasonable price.  Failure of the government to buy will result in Norwegian, Brit, Australian, Israeli and Italian buyers getting the first look in after the Americans.

65/2000 is ~3%.
65/3000 is ~2%.

Liberals would guarantee Canadian Aerospace getting the equivalent of 2 to 3% of the F-35 production run.

Conservatives wouldn't guarantee anything but would keep Canadian industry in the game to supply 100% of the landing gear (Dowty) or 100% of the Flight Simulators (CAE) and ongoing supply of spares to the international fleet of F-35s.

NDP - don't like war, are stuck in process and will find alternate employment for pilots.
 
I don't understand, are the Liberals privy to some knowledge that no one else is? Why exclude the F-35 specifically? I have a lot of concerns about the F-35 but I can't see any alternative but the Gripen and that's clearly a different class of fighter.
 
suffolkowner said:
I don't understand, are the Liberals privy to some knowledge that no one else is? Why exclude the F-35 specifically? I have a lot of concerns about the F-35 but I can't see any alternative but the Gripen and that's clearly a different class of fighter.

My cynical/sarcastic guess:  They don't have any knowledge, but since Defence is a political catchword in Canada, "F-35" = "Conservatives" and they will buy anything, useful or not, than be politically linked with that airframe. 
 
suffolkowner said:
I don't understand, are the Liberals privy to some knowledge that no one else is? Why exclude the F-35 specifically? I have a lot of concerns about the F-35 but I can't see any alternative but the Gripen and that's clearly a different class of fighter.

Gripen NG is the only one we're going to be able to get that's going to let us build things here. Its also barely a Gen 4.5 aircraft and I feel it'll be completely outclassed as soon as the upgraded blocks are done on the F-35.
 
Some reassurin' from south of the border ....
Amid renewed questions about Canada’s commitment to the F-35 fighter jet, the Pentagon’s top acquisition official said the Canadian supply base will remain an essential part of the program, even if the nation does not buy the aircraft.

“I believe those suppliers are part of the team, I don’t see any reason why they would not continue to be part of the team whether Canada [buys jets] or not,” Frank Kendall, the Pentagon’s undersecretary of defense for acquisition, told reporters here during a ceremony to celebrate the roll out of Norway’s first F-35. “We make our decisions on participation based on best value and if Canadian firms are still best value then they will be part of the program.”  ....
 
Note this tweet:

Jason McNaught
‏@jalexmcnaught

@Mark3Ds @SteveDaly15 An exec from Lockheed told me in an interview last year that bailing out would have obvious repercussions.
https://twitter.com/jalexmcnaught/status/646701568910163968

The author:

Editor @VanguardMag / Associate Editor, @CGExec. I tweet about defence, CAF, foreign policy, current events and politics. From Lunenburg,NS.
https://twitter.com/jalexmcnaught

Mark
Ottawa
 
More on the above. 

Lockmart/the US DoD's Canadian suppliers say they will continue their work despite Liberal leader Trudeau's recent comments saying an elected government under him would cancel the F-35.

Did they just shoot themselves in the foot by countering PM Harper's comments that cancelling the F-35 would make our aerospace industry lose some business?  :facepalm:

Defense News

Kendall: Canadian Suppliers Will Continue To Support F-35
By Lara Seligman 11:13 a.m. EDT September 23, 2015

FORT WORTH, Texas — Amid renewed questions about Canada’s commitment to the F-35 fighter jet, the Pentagon’s top acquisition official said the Canadian supply base will remain an essential part of the program, even if the nation does not buy the aircraft.

“I believe those suppliers are part of the team, I don’t see any reason why they would not continue to be part of the team whether Canada [buys jets] or not,” Frank Kendall, the Pentagon’s undersecretary of defense for acquisition, told reporters here during a ceremony to celebrate the roll out of Norway’s first F-35. “We make our decisions on participation based on best value, and if Canadian firms are still best value, then they will be part of the program.”

The question of whether Canada will buy the F-35 to replace its aging fighter jets will be decided by the outcome of the country’s federal election on Oct. 19. Canada is weighing whether to move ahead with a planned 65-aircraft F-35 purchase, or hold a competition.

(...SNIPPED)
 
Norway firm on 52, working with Aussies on Kongsberg JSM for plane:

Norway Reiterates Commitment to F-35s
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/f35-lightning-ii-faces-continued-dogfights-in-norway-03034/

Norway, Australia Team To Upgrade Missile for F-35
http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/air-space/strike/2015/09/21/norway-australia-team-to-develop-missile-for-f-35/72590888/

Mark
Ottawa
 
S.M.A. said:
Did they just shoot themselves in the foot by countering PM Harper's comments that cancelling the F-35 would make our aerospace industry lose some business?  :facepalm:
Or looking like a good neighbour, no matter who wins the election.
 
Just in case you were wondering (plus Norwegians):

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/us-officials-f-35-will-outmatch-any-aircraft-in-dev-417067/
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/us-officials-f-35-will-outmatch-any-aircraft-in-dev-417067/

Mark
Ottawa
 
suffolkowner said:
I don't understand, are the Liberals privy to some knowledge that no one else is? Why exclude the F-35 specifically? I have a lot of concerns about the F-35 but I can't see any alternative but the Gripen and that's clearly a different class of fighter.

Here's your answer....they appear to be listening to Stephen Fuhr, an ex Hornet pilot, who I know has been on FB saying that Canada should get the Super Hornet and not the F-35.

Don't get me started...
 
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