F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF)

[MarkOttawa]

How many F-35Bs for UK?

...
Other big budget items are the two new aircraft carriers, HMS Elizabeth, due to come into service in 2020, and, afterwards, HMS Prince of Wales.

The MoD has been struggling to find the money for planes for the two aircraft carriers. Anything less than at least 20 planes for each carrier would be viewed at Westminster as a political embarrassment.

The way around this for the MoD is to stress that only one carrier is likely to be operational at any time, with the other being used for training or being refitted, so planes would only be needed for one.

The MoD originally wanted 138, then slashed it to 48. The plan is to buy an initial 16 F-35s and reassess the position when the carriers are in service [next decade]...
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/nov/20/defence-review-cameron-announce-uk-reconnaissance-planes-sdsr-2015?CMP=share_btn_link

Italy, the only other foreign buyer of the STOVL version, is also supposed to acquire 30 F-35Bs (along with 60 F-35As)--how likely?
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/feature/5/162918/italian-government-waffles-on-f_35-in-run_up-to-white-paper.html

Mark
Ottawa

 

[CougarKing]

I doubt the metrosexual selfie king, Justin Trudeau, will go back on his word to cancel the F-35 program because it was such a signature promise of his campaign.

Reuters

U.S. expects F-35 to be part of Canada's next jet competition
Sat Nov 21, 2015 1:04pm EST

By Phil Stewart

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Pentagon expects the new Canadian government to allow Lockheed Martin Corp's LMT.N F-35 fighter aircraft to compete to replace Canada's aging CF-18 jets, despite the Liberal Party's stated opposition to the planes, U.S. Deputy Defense Secretary Bob Work said on Saturday.

But Work cautioned after talks in Canada that how the fledgling government sets its requirements for the competition would ultimately determine what jet the country gets.

"I think they're going to have another full and open competition. I think the F-35 will be part of that but the requirements from the competition may change. We don't know," Work told reporters traveling with him back from Canada.

(...SNIPPED)

 

[MarkOttawa]

Yesterday on UK F-35Bs:

...
The MoD originally wanted 138, then slashed it to 48. The plan is to buy an initial 16 F-35s and reassess the position when the carriers are in service [next decade]...
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/nov/20/defence-review-cameron-announce-uk-reconnaissance-planes-sdsr-2015?CMP=share_btn_link

Now it's to be 24 to start:

"...
"We are going to step up the aircraft carrier punch of the United Kingdom. We are going to make sure that when these aircraft carriers are available they are going to have planes that can fly from them in force," [finance minister] Osborne told BBC television.

"By 2023, we will be able to have 24 of these jets, some of the most powerful in the world, the F-35, on the decks of these carriers."

Those will be the first tranche of a total order of 138 of Lockheed Martin's F-35 Lightning II jets, a spokesman for the Ministry of Defence said. Britain had not previously confirmed how many it planned to order or a time scale, but the spokesman said the 24 marked a "substantial acceleration"...
http://news.yahoo.com/uk-buy-more-f-35-jets-boost-anti-105810219--business.html

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Kirkhill]

I doubt the metrosexual selfie king, Justin Trudeau, will go back on his word to cancel the F-35 program because it was such a signature promise of his campaign.

Reuters

I continue to suggest/believe/hope that the issue can be finessed merely by NOT BUYING during this mandate but equally NOT WITHDRAWING.  The article quotes the MND's mandate letter. The withdrawal refers to Syria, not to the F35.  That is merely referenced in terms of a competition.  There will be one.

And Mark - I don't think the UK has ever limited itself on the number of buys or on the fleet composition it ends up with. Much like the US.  It is buying what it can as it can and then reviewing needs and capabilities.  There is nothing yet seen that precludes them buying up to the original estimated number of 138.

 

[OTR1]

Quote from UK PM David Cameron a few hours ago.

"We will maintain our plan to buy 138 F35 Lighting aircraft over the life of the program." Of that, 24 delivered and in service  by 2023.

 

[MarkOttawa]

But:

...It will be two decades before the full fleet of 138 F-35s has landed...
http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21678990-spies-special-forces-and-royal-air-force-are-main-winners-britain-reasserts-itself

Might very well be pie in the sky.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[jmt18325]

But:

Might very well be pie in the sky.

Mark
Ottawa

Yes, interesting that they life extend the Typhoon until 2040.  Who wants to bet that it flies longer than that?

 

[MarkOttawa]

Actually on UK F-35Bs:

...there will be about 42 of the new planes delivered by 2023...
http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/politics/norfolk_s_raf_marham_to_get_extra_f_35_squadron_by_2023_1_4322477

Two operational squadrons of12 each.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Kirkhill]

But:

Might very well be pie in the sky.

Mark
Ottawa

And they and the Labour party, both represented on the Commons Defence Committee, might both honour their commitments.

Cynicism can be drawn overly finely Mark.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Seen this.  Not contributing to the topic but found it kind of humorous.

"The JSF really is a miracle of modern military contracting - it can maneuver like a F-18, has the range of a F-16, is about as stealthy as a F-15, and costs the same as all three combined."

 

[MarkOttawa]

Chris Pook:

Cynicism can be drawn overly finely Mark.

Just thinking of the procurement vagaries of the 2020s and 30s .  Mesdames et messieurs, faites vos jeux.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Kirkhill]

Chris Pook:

Just thinking of the procurement vagaries of the 2020s and 30s .  Mesdames et messieurs, faites vos jeux.

Mark
Ottawa

C'est vrai ca.  But it is just as justifiable to see a bright future as it is a dark future.  Red or Black?

 

[HB_Pencil]

Yes, interesting that they life extend the Typhoon until 2040.  Who wants to bet that it flies longer than that?

Probably less. The RAF Typhoons are the most heavily used of all the consortium members, and the aircraft has experienced a higher number of structural defects than one would reasonably expect at this stage. Remember that the Typhoons that will last to 2040 haven't left the production lines yet.... they anticipate only 20 years of operational service out of them. Another part of the problem is the aircraft's ruinous costs and relatively low availability rates.

Before the 2010 SDR, the plan was to retire the Tranche 1 aircraft around 2020 and replace them with F-35As. The 2015 SDRS opted instead to give them some limited upgrades to keep them going to about 2030 or so. That's not completely off the table, as some are suggesting that this confirmation paves the way for F-35As down the line as the Tranche 1s rust out. The UK has always maintained that they see the F-35's long production life as a benefit: the flexibility will allow them to purchase aircraft later on and not be cornered in a contract to buy a capability later on, like with Eurofighter Tranche 3.

Also note that this plan will basically make the F-35 the largest fleet operated by the RAF around 2025~2030 (dependant on the Tranche 1 ELE)

 

[jmt18325]

Less would be quite the bet, considering everyone is planning to lengthen their aircraft into a longer timeframe.

 

[MarkOttawa]

More at AvWeek:

U.K. To Buy 138 F-35s, Will Boost Fighter Squadrons
...
The U.K.’s Eurofighter Typhoon force will be expanded with an additional two front-line squadrons to be formed using the Tranche 1 aircraft that had been due to exit service in 2017. The exact mix of Tranche 1, 2 and 3 aircraft is yet to be confirmed. Some reports say 24 aircraft, others say 36 of the 50 or so Tranche 1 jets delivered will be retained.

The Typhoon’s out-of-service date will also be extended from 2030 to 2040. The U.K. also plans to fit the Tranche 3 Typhoons with the active electronically scanned array radar currently in development.

The Typhoon, along with enhancements to carry air-to-ground weapons, will still replace the Panavia Tornado GR4 in 2019, although the Tornado fleet will not begin to shrink until 2018.

“It is anticipated that the [Tornado] force will start to draw down from 2018, allowing us to make a smooth transition of personnel to support the introduction of our Lightning II Force into service in 2019,” a defense ministry spokesman said.

The report says the U.K. will maintain its plan to purchase 138 F-35s aircraft over the life of the program. But it does not detail whether the U.K. will look at variants beyond the F-35B model planned for use on the U.K.’s two new Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers. This will be decided in the next SDSR planned for 2020 [emphasis added].

In the meantime, orders for the F-35B will be accelerated in order to put up to 24 of the aircraft onto the new Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers. A further 18 aircraft will support training, test and evaluation [emphasis added], and periodic servicing and upgrade activity, defense officials have told Aviation Week.

The U.K. has already signed up to purchase 14 F-35s over the next five years, on top of the three already in service and the fourth due to be delivered late this year. Six more F-35Bs were ordered by the U.K. in early November.

Until now, U.K. ministers had only confirmed plans to purchase 48 F-35s...
http://aviationweek.com/defense/uk-buy-138-f-35s-will-boost-fighter-squadrons

Mark
Ottawa

 

[CougarKing]

To those here who don't normally check the China superthread, please take note that the latest version of China's J20 stealth fighter just made its first flight.

This should not be confused with the J31 "stealth fighter" that's a 2 engine knockoff or copy of the F35.

 

[CougarKing]

Trudeau's cancellation of the F35 has even emboldened critics of the F35 in Australia:

Sydney Morning Herald

Push for inquiry into Australia's $24 billion F-35 Joint Strike Fighter purchase
    November 27, 2015

Daniel Flitton
Senior Correspondent

A push to examine the wisdom of Australia's planned $24 billion fleet of F-35 Joint Strike Fighters - ranking as the nation's largest ever defence purchase - is underway in the Senate.

Greens defence spokesman Peter Whish-Wilson on Friday has urged the Senate's standing committee on foreign affairs and trade to inquire into the suitability of the stealth jet for Australia's strategic interests.

The move comes after the election last month of new Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau on a promise to abandon plans to purchase the troubled fighter.

(...SNIPPED)

 

[dapaterson]

Et tu, USAF?

The U.S. Air Force is contemplating adding 72 F-15, F-16 or even F-18 fighter aircraft due to low F-35 production rates.

http://thediplomat.com/2015/11/f-35-too-expensive-us-air-force-might-buy-72-new-f-15-or-f-16-fighter-jets/?utm_content=bufferdf4f7&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

 

[AlexanderM]

Et tu, USAF?

The U.S. Air Force is contemplating adding 72 F-15, F-16 or even F-18 fighter aircraft due to low F-35 production rates.

http://thediplomat.com/2015/11/f-35-too-expensive-us-air-force-might-buy-72-new-f-15-or-f-16-fighter-jets/?utm_content=bufferdf4f7&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

The F-16 in its most up to date configuration, such as the ones Turkey is now flying, are a pretty capable aircraft, but once they get the new radar quoted in the article, combined with the Meteor missile, they should be able to hold their own for some time to come.

 

[dimsum]

Trudeau's cancellation of the F35 has even emboldened critics of the F35 in Australia:

Sydney Morning Herald

I'm not so sure this will change things for Australia.  The F-35s are replacing their legacy Hornets, which were bought roughly the same time as ours and upgraded since then.  Like ours, theirs are getting old - but there have already been at least 2 RAAF F-35 airframes built and aircrew trained to fly them.  It would be bad optics for them to back out at this point.