Kirkhill said:
The German reporting on the same story . . .
"Defense contractor EADS appears to have cut corners in its construction of the Eurofighter jet for the German military. The government faces billions in additional costs, but it doesn't want taxpayers to find out until after federal election this fall."
Don't tell the CBC. They would be gob smacked.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/safety-problems-eurofighter-costs-soar-amid-mismanagment-a-910231.html
- Reaction score
- 146
- Points
- 710
Haletown: The Spiegel piece not un-noticed earlier by one just trying to follow things fairly fairly:
http://cdfai3ds.wordpress.com/2013/07/10/mark-collins-usn-admiral-on-the-wings-of-fighter-things-to-come-including/comment-page-1/#comment-2736
Mark
Ottawa
http://cdfai3ds.wordpress.com/2013/07/10/mark-collins-usn-admiral-on-the-wings-of-fighter-things-to-come-including/comment-page-1/#comment-2736
Mark
Ottawa
Norway is in.
The Netherlands are in.
Now, so are the Italians.
"Rome, July 16 – A majority of Italy's Senate approved the plans to buy F-35 jet fighters in a vote Tuesday but said future purchases should be approved by parliament. The controversial purchase passed by a vote of 202 in favour, 55 opposed and 15 abstentions. Having already passed the same vote in the Lower House, the purchase plans are now final. Senators rejected a call to cancel the purchase of 90 Lockheed Martin F-35 fighter jets which, at an estimated $200 million per unit, are among the costliest fighter jets in the world"
Good news story, except for the CBC/Rideau Institute level of misinformation about the price.
www.gazzettadelsud.it/news/english/54368/Senate-passes-motion-on-buying-controversial-F-35-fighters.html
The Netherlands are in.
Now, so are the Italians.
"Rome, July 16 – A majority of Italy's Senate approved the plans to buy F-35 jet fighters in a vote Tuesday but said future purchases should be approved by parliament. The controversial purchase passed by a vote of 202 in favour, 55 opposed and 15 abstentions. Having already passed the same vote in the Lower House, the purchase plans are now final. Senators rejected a call to cancel the purchase of 90 Lockheed Martin F-35 fighter jets which, at an estimated $200 million per unit, are among the costliest fighter jets in the world"
Good news story, except for the CBC/Rideau Institute level of misinformation about the price.
www.gazzettadelsud.it/news/english/54368/Senate-passes-motion-on-buying-controversial-F-35-fighters.html
- Reaction score
- 3,449
- Points
- 1,120
Shared with the usual caveats:
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/campaigns/our_boys/4062503/5bn-Navy-jets-cant-use-our-new-aircraft-carriers.html
"THE £5billion fighter jets Britain has ordered for its new aircraft carriers cannot LAND on them.
And the planes won’t be able to fire the missiles we want either, a leaked report revealed.
It is the latest fiasco to hit the MoD’s costly and controversial aircraft carrier replacement programme, which has left us without a vessel until 2020.
The Royal Navy has ordered 50 Joint Strike Fighter jets from US defence contractor Lockheed Martin at a cost of £5billion. They have a hook underneath which catches a wire on the ship’s deck to stop them when they land.
But papers leaked from the Pentagon show the hook is too close to the wheels to work.
Eight simulated landings have been carried out — and they ALL failed.
The aircraft now needs a major redesign — or could be scrapped.
The carrier programme has been rocked by catastrophes. First the Government axed the Ark Royal, leaving Britain without an aircraft carrier for the first time since 1918.
Then the National Audit Office warned the cost of two replacement ships could double to more than £10billion. "
More at link above...
First I've heard of tailhook problems with the F-35....is it in this thread somewhere, or is this a "new" revelation?
NS
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/campaigns/our_boys/4062503/5bn-Navy-jets-cant-use-our-new-aircraft-carriers.html
"THE £5billion fighter jets Britain has ordered for its new aircraft carriers cannot LAND on them.
And the planes won’t be able to fire the missiles we want either, a leaked report revealed.
It is the latest fiasco to hit the MoD’s costly and controversial aircraft carrier replacement programme, which has left us without a vessel until 2020.
The Royal Navy has ordered 50 Joint Strike Fighter jets from US defence contractor Lockheed Martin at a cost of £5billion. They have a hook underneath which catches a wire on the ship’s deck to stop them when they land.
But papers leaked from the Pentagon show the hook is too close to the wheels to work.
Eight simulated landings have been carried out — and they ALL failed.
The aircraft now needs a major redesign — or could be scrapped.
The carrier programme has been rocked by catastrophes. First the Government axed the Ark Royal, leaving Britain without an aircraft carrier for the first time since 1918.
Then the National Audit Office warned the cost of two replacement ships could double to more than £10billion. "
More at link above...
First I've heard of tailhook problems with the F-35....is it in this thread somewhere, or is this a "new" revelation?
NS
- Reaction score
- 7,475
- Points
- 1,160
NS:
The issue is not applicable to the RN/RAF which has bought the F35B version (Short Take Off VERTICAL Land). It doesn't use a tail hook.
The January 2012 article refers to the F35C which Cameron briefly dallied with when he was trying to get French aircraft on British carriers. The mods to the carrier were too expensive so they went back to Plan A.
At the same time there were reports that the USN F35Cs couldn't catch the arrester wires.
The issue did concern the USN. But if they could figure out how to land a tailless UCAV on a 3-wire arrest then I am sure they can adjust the F35 tailhook to suit the situation.
As for weapons.....the inventory of weapons available to any airframe are constantly being adjusted.
FJAG
Army.ca Legend
- Reaction score
- 11,563
- Points
- 1,160
Haletown said:
And 8 months later the A400M certification process is still bogged down.
This article offers a good explanation why.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/berlin-runs-into-trouble-with-certification-of-a400-military-plane-a-912412.html
Sorry if this is a bit off topic but the article relates more, and is of more interest, to this thread then the dead A400M threads.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 10
Kirkhill said:
NS:
The issue is not applicable to the RN/RAF which has bought the F35B version (Short Take Off VERTICAL Land). It doesn't use a tail hook.
The January 2012 article refers to the F35C which Cameron briefly dallied with when he was trying to get French aircraft on British carriers. The mods to the carrier were too expensive so they went back to Plan A.
At the same time there were reports that the USN F35Cs couldn't catch the arrester wires.
The issue did concern the USN. But if they could figure out how to land a tailless UCAV on a 3-wire arrest then I am sure they can adjust the F35 tailhook to suit the situation.
As for weapons.....the inventory of weapons available to any airframe are constantly being adjusted.
However an issue that all version have in common is the exaust melting the runway. P&W needed to re-tune the engine but it's not clear whether or not the problem have been solved.
- Reaction score
- 7,475
- Points
- 1,160
April 11, 2013 article on Tailhooks and deck modifications.
Melting "decks" - not runways - solved with a coat of paint. Trade name Thermion.
Interestingly some articles originally suggested the decks were to be painted with Thermite - a solution that would seem to be counter-intuitive, to say the least.
Melting "decks" - not runways - solved with a coat of paint. Trade name Thermion.
Interestingly some articles originally suggested the decks were to be painted with Thermite - a solution that would seem to be counter-intuitive, to say the least.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 10
I can't find back the article which expressed concern about melting those modular runway. News website got a tendency to have a lot of broken links or I may have simply not used the proper keyword.
That a bit of nitpicking though but reading the comments on the first article, it seems that the coating is named termion, not termite
That a bit of nitpicking though but reading the comments on the first article, it seems that the coating is named termion, not termite
Henry Cobb · 14 weeks ago
The reporter must have misheard. Coating your ship with "thermite" and then landing a F-35B on that will ensure that the burning does not stop at the waterline.
blight_112p · 14 weeks ago
Agreed. I found only one other reference to thermite coatings, in a high-temperature application out of a patent:
http://www.google.cz/patents/US5022991
RunningBear · 14 weeks ago
Thermion, Thermion; tried and proven on the WASP for V-22, AV-8B, F-35B, etc.
blight_112p · 14 weeks ago
http://www.thermioninc.com/
Those guys?
ward · 14 weeks ago
The admiral misspoke. We corrected to what he MEANT. Thanks, Henry.
[/quote[
That is quite the article, well worthy of a Canadian journalist or even a series of breathless, full investigative programs on the CBC. I am sure they can get Wheeler or Sprey back to offer their doomsday blatherings.
As a story, the tail hook issue is about three years old and was then and remains an over torqued media frenzy from a relatively normal design issue. The original design didn't work as planned. They figured out what was not working (hook's toe shape and damper activation) and they have designed a fix. The fix has ground tested is due for flight testing right about now.
from April 2013 . . . . . "The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter has been under fire from budget hawks and acquisition reformists because of repeated delays and soaring cost. The latest hitch in its development was a malfunctioning tail hook that failed to properly grab deck cables when the aircraft landed on aircraft carriers.
The tail hook has been completely redesigned and officials are confident it will work when tested later this year."
http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/blog/Lists/Posts/Post.aspx?ID=1108
Good summary in the Bogdan submission to the Senate, also from April. (pg 3)
Doc Attached
Just another everyday engineering issue when you develop new aircraft, issues that get found out and fixed. The press, in their on going desperation to create hysterical headlines and doomsday stories, writes up this kind of stuff in catastrophic terms because they need that kind of spin and torque to attract eyeballs to their newspapers.
Nothing to see here, move along folks.
As a story, the tail hook issue is about three years old and was then and remains an over torqued media frenzy from a relatively normal design issue. The original design didn't work as planned. They figured out what was not working (hook's toe shape and damper activation) and they have designed a fix. The fix has ground tested is due for flight testing right about now.
from April 2013 . . . . . "The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter has been under fire from budget hawks and acquisition reformists because of repeated delays and soaring cost. The latest hitch in its development was a malfunctioning tail hook that failed to properly grab deck cables when the aircraft landed on aircraft carriers.
The tail hook has been completely redesigned and officials are confident it will work when tested later this year."
http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/blog/Lists/Posts/Post.aspx?ID=1108
Good summary in the Bogdan submission to the Senate, also from April. (pg 3)
Doc Attached
Just another everyday engineering issue when you develop new aircraft, issues that get found out and fixed. The press, in their on going desperation to create hysterical headlines and doomsday stories, writes up this kind of stuff in catastrophic terms because they need that kind of spin and torque to attract eyeballs to their newspapers.
Nothing to see here, move along folks.
- Reaction score
- 1,014
- Points
- 1,160
I will send some photos in January.
http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/20130719luke-air-force-base-prepping-for-arrival-of-f-jets.html
Luke Air Force Base prepping for arrival of F-35 jets
By Paul Giblin The Republic | azcentral.com Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:16 AM
With the arrival of the first wave of F-35 Lightning II fighter jets at Luke Air Force Base just months away, construction is under way on facilities where pilots will be trained and the planes will be maintained.
In all, Air Force executives have projected a $265 million, seven-year construction program specifically to accommodate the F-35 pilot-training program at the base in west Glendale.
The build-up will allow Luke to serve as the permanent training base for 144 (an increase announced 28 Jun) of the single-engine stealth jets that military analysts say will be crucial to U.S. air-defense operations for the next 40 years.
The construction is scheduled to be completed in six major phases to coincide with the arrival of six squadrons of F-35s and the departure of six squadrons of older F-16 fighter jets that are relocating elsewhere.
“It’s going to be sort of a Jenga puzzle game for a while,” said Lt. Col. Scott Fredrick, who is heading Luke’s F-35 transition team.
The first F-35 assigned to Luke is expected to arrive between January and March.
Luke’s first F-35 also is expected to be the 100th production F-35 manufactured by Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Co., in Fort Worth, Texas, ticking off two important milestones for the F-35 program simultaneously, Fredrick said.
The rest of the planes in Luke’s first 24-plane squadron are expected to be delivered in groups of one to four throughout 2014, said Lockheed Martin spokesman Michael Rein. Each plane takes about two years to assemble and costs $65 million, he said.
The high-dollar construction program associated with the jets at Luke will boost the entire Valley’s economy, said Glendale Mayor Jerry Weiers.
“It’s certainly a benefit. I do believe it’s the whole region. I think it’s going to be literally across the Valley. There will be people out there working and supplies bought from all over,” he said.
Construction crews already are bustling to transition the base for the newest generation of fighter planes.
Luke has 137 F-16s. The first two squadrons of F-16s are scheduled to relocate to Holloman Air Force Base near Alamogordo, N.M., in 2014 and 2015.
However, F-35 instructors, trainees and crews cannot simply move into existing facilities as the F-16s and their personnel move out, Fredrick said.
The F-35s feature more advanced technology and different equipment than the F-16s, which requires support facilities tailored specifically to accommodate them.
Some buildings and infrastructure systems are being retrofitted for the F-35s, but most of the work involves new construction. Overall, plans call for new buildings associated with each of the six squadrons, plus several smaller projects, such as improvements to hangars and warehouses.
The construction work is being directed by the Army Corps of Engineers, which oversees military construction and major civil-works projects worldwide.
The first phase features three major buildings — a classroom building called the Academic Training Center, a squadron headquarters called the Squadron Operations building and a workshop building called the Aircraft Maintenance Unit.
Work is under way on all three buildings.
The classroom building eventually will be used by all six squadrons of pilots-in-training, but each of the six squadrons will get their own operations and maintenance buildings.
The Academic Training Center alone is budgeted for $54 million. The L-shaped building will house classrooms, an auditorium, administrative offices and perhaps most importantly, a dozen F-35 cockpit simulators.
The structure is scheduled to open with two simulators in August 2014; the remaining simulators will be added as additional squadrons arrive later, Fredrick said.
The simulators essentially are life-size, three-dimensional video games that allow student pilots to get time behind the controls of an F-35 without leaving the ground.
The simulators are especially valuable for teaching beginning skills, such as how to start the aircraft and how to handle preflight communications with ground crews and tower personnel without burning through hours and hours worth of jet fuel, Fredrick said.
In addition, instructors can prepare trainees for a variety of flight situations by programming an array of weather conditions, in-flight mechanical malfunctions and attacks by enemy combatants, all without the risk of losing lives or property.
“That’s exactly where you want young pilots to make their mistakes,” Fredrick said.
The $10 million Squadron Operations building will be the primary place where pilots prepare for flights. The building will feature a theater-style briefing room and space for pilots to program their planes’ computer systems before takeoff.
“You put 30 guys in the room who are going to fly at 10 o’clock today and you tell them what the weather is, what the restrictions are, and out they go,” Fredrick said.
The most sensitive equipment in the operations building will be housed in “the vault,” a densely constructed high-security section that’s designed to keep inquiring minds inquiring indefinitely, he said.
The $6 million Aircraft Maintenance Unit involves a renovation and addition to an existing building. When complete, it will accommodate ground crew members, who will use it to store tools, parts and electronic records.
“Those are the maintainers that actually check out a toolbox, walk out to the aircraft and get it ready to fly,” said Senior Master Sgt. Don Stroud, who serves as the maintenance group leader for the F-35 program.
The majority of work on the F-35s will be handled on the flight deck, under metal shade structures that originally were built to shade F-16s.
Record-keeping is critical, he said. Ground crews will generate 30 to 40 pages worth of detailed documents every day for every jet. That work will be handled at banks of computers in the structure.
The operations and maintenance buildings are positioned side by side to facilitate greater communication and camaraderie among the pilots and the ground crew members, Fredrick said.
Starting with the second squadron, the operations and maintenance facilities will be combined in new $18 million, two-story buildings. Those will come on line as the subsequent squadrons arrive.
“It’s going to be a hard-hat area out here for many years,” Fredrick said.
Foreign military pilots also will train at Luke. The first F-35 squadron will be comprised of U.S. and Australian pilots. Italian, Turkish and Norwegian pilots are scheduled to join the mix in 2015.
http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/20130719luke-air-force-base-prepping-for-arrival-of-f-jets.html
Luke Air Force Base prepping for arrival of F-35 jets
By Paul Giblin The Republic | azcentral.com Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:16 AM
With the arrival of the first wave of F-35 Lightning II fighter jets at Luke Air Force Base just months away, construction is under way on facilities where pilots will be trained and the planes will be maintained.
In all, Air Force executives have projected a $265 million, seven-year construction program specifically to accommodate the F-35 pilot-training program at the base in west Glendale.
The build-up will allow Luke to serve as the permanent training base for 144 (an increase announced 28 Jun) of the single-engine stealth jets that military analysts say will be crucial to U.S. air-defense operations for the next 40 years.
The construction is scheduled to be completed in six major phases to coincide with the arrival of six squadrons of F-35s and the departure of six squadrons of older F-16 fighter jets that are relocating elsewhere.
“It’s going to be sort of a Jenga puzzle game for a while,” said Lt. Col. Scott Fredrick, who is heading Luke’s F-35 transition team.
The first F-35 assigned to Luke is expected to arrive between January and March.
Luke’s first F-35 also is expected to be the 100th production F-35 manufactured by Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Co., in Fort Worth, Texas, ticking off two important milestones for the F-35 program simultaneously, Fredrick said.
The rest of the planes in Luke’s first 24-plane squadron are expected to be delivered in groups of one to four throughout 2014, said Lockheed Martin spokesman Michael Rein. Each plane takes about two years to assemble and costs $65 million, he said.
The high-dollar construction program associated with the jets at Luke will boost the entire Valley’s economy, said Glendale Mayor Jerry Weiers.
“It’s certainly a benefit. I do believe it’s the whole region. I think it’s going to be literally across the Valley. There will be people out there working and supplies bought from all over,” he said.
Construction crews already are bustling to transition the base for the newest generation of fighter planes.
Luke has 137 F-16s. The first two squadrons of F-16s are scheduled to relocate to Holloman Air Force Base near Alamogordo, N.M., in 2014 and 2015.
However, F-35 instructors, trainees and crews cannot simply move into existing facilities as the F-16s and their personnel move out, Fredrick said.
The F-35s feature more advanced technology and different equipment than the F-16s, which requires support facilities tailored specifically to accommodate them.
Some buildings and infrastructure systems are being retrofitted for the F-35s, but most of the work involves new construction. Overall, plans call for new buildings associated with each of the six squadrons, plus several smaller projects, such as improvements to hangars and warehouses.
The construction work is being directed by the Army Corps of Engineers, which oversees military construction and major civil-works projects worldwide.
The first phase features three major buildings — a classroom building called the Academic Training Center, a squadron headquarters called the Squadron Operations building and a workshop building called the Aircraft Maintenance Unit.
Work is under way on all three buildings.
The classroom building eventually will be used by all six squadrons of pilots-in-training, but each of the six squadrons will get their own operations and maintenance buildings.
The Academic Training Center alone is budgeted for $54 million. The L-shaped building will house classrooms, an auditorium, administrative offices and perhaps most importantly, a dozen F-35 cockpit simulators.
The structure is scheduled to open with two simulators in August 2014; the remaining simulators will be added as additional squadrons arrive later, Fredrick said.
The simulators essentially are life-size, three-dimensional video games that allow student pilots to get time behind the controls of an F-35 without leaving the ground.
The simulators are especially valuable for teaching beginning skills, such as how to start the aircraft and how to handle preflight communications with ground crews and tower personnel without burning through hours and hours worth of jet fuel, Fredrick said.
In addition, instructors can prepare trainees for a variety of flight situations by programming an array of weather conditions, in-flight mechanical malfunctions and attacks by enemy combatants, all without the risk of losing lives or property.
“That’s exactly where you want young pilots to make their mistakes,” Fredrick said.
The $10 million Squadron Operations building will be the primary place where pilots prepare for flights. The building will feature a theater-style briefing room and space for pilots to program their planes’ computer systems before takeoff.
“You put 30 guys in the room who are going to fly at 10 o’clock today and you tell them what the weather is, what the restrictions are, and out they go,” Fredrick said.
The most sensitive equipment in the operations building will be housed in “the vault,” a densely constructed high-security section that’s designed to keep inquiring minds inquiring indefinitely, he said.
The $6 million Aircraft Maintenance Unit involves a renovation and addition to an existing building. When complete, it will accommodate ground crew members, who will use it to store tools, parts and electronic records.
“Those are the maintainers that actually check out a toolbox, walk out to the aircraft and get it ready to fly,” said Senior Master Sgt. Don Stroud, who serves as the maintenance group leader for the F-35 program.
The majority of work on the F-35s will be handled on the flight deck, under metal shade structures that originally were built to shade F-16s.
Record-keeping is critical, he said. Ground crews will generate 30 to 40 pages worth of detailed documents every day for every jet. That work will be handled at banks of computers in the structure.
The operations and maintenance buildings are positioned side by side to facilitate greater communication and camaraderie among the pilots and the ground crew members, Fredrick said.
Starting with the second squadron, the operations and maintenance facilities will be combined in new $18 million, two-story buildings. Those will come on line as the subsequent squadrons arrive.
“It’s going to be a hard-hat area out here for many years,” Fredrick said.
Foreign military pilots also will train at Luke. The first F-35 squadron will be comprised of U.S. and Australian pilots. Italian, Turkish and Norwegian pilots are scheduled to join the mix in 2015.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 10
Not much with the f-35 is another everyday engineering issue. The complexity is astronomical. Space and weight so limited that they had to remove safety to cut weight. The software has more than 20 Millions LOC; electronic-wise the capability expected seems quite promising but it's such a big chunk of work. All of these problems alone are an everyday engineering issue -including design tools that have failed- but they are all interacting each other. The problem is so complex to solve that the plane have been redesigned many times, cost of development have significantly increased and performance have been reduced ... in order to lower the operating and manufacturing cost, which I believe it will be really great for us.Haletown said:
[url=http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-13-690T]GAO[/url] said:
http://www.gao.gov/assets/660/655295.pdf
http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2013/04/01/More-problems-cited-in-F-35-JSF-program/UPI-41081364863839/#ixzz2ZysXy7YD
http://www.defensenews.com/article/20130114/DEFREG02/301140021/Report-Lightning-Threat-JSF-59-Cutting-Weight-Erodes-Safety
I concede that the tailhook failure is far from being the biggest source of concern on that projects. However I will wait to ear that those testing are really successful before saying that it's solved. The best example of everyday engineering issue would be all the hype that have been around that fuel line failure.
- Reaction score
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Rifleman62 said:
Logistic-wise I am sure they will do wonders with this aircraft; I am impatient to see how we are going to implement them.
Waiting for the pictures.
- Reaction score
- 3,508
- Points
- 1,160
Price cuts, a sign of things to come?
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/canada/f-35-price-cut-in-offing-with-new-deal-inked-between-pentagon-and-aircraft-maker-217649621.html
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/canada/f-35-price-cut-in-offing-with-new-deal-inked-between-pentagon-and-aircraft-maker-217649621.html
- Reaction score
- 146
- Points
- 710
CP story above:
Engine not included, GFE:
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/07/30/uk-lockheed-fighter-idUKBRE96T16I20130730
Mark
Ottawa
Engine not included, GFE:
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/07/30/uk-lockheed-fighter-idUKBRE96T16I20130730
Mark
Ottawa
- Reaction score
- 2,563
- Points
- 1,260
The latest from the Independent Review Panel (shared via Twitter by one of its members) on it's 10 Jun 13 meeting - with more, reportedly, to follow shortly from more recent meetings - a few highilghts:
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