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Fast track for Immigration by joining the CF

mover1 - please curb your tone, just a tad. Between "get real" and calling someone "a tard" on another thread, you're tiptoeing along the edge of the Conduct Guidelines... for someone so eager to be inclusive, you don't seem to apply that attitude, when they disagree with you

Thanks in advance
 
Sorry about the tone. I will be nice.

Just a side bar on the he said she said lets get nasty talk I was generating and getting back on topic.
Does anyone know what the U.S. military policy is on  this exact same issue?

 
You need to have a green-card to join the US mil.  Same policy that we had 3-4 years ago.
 
mover1 said:
R031 Pte Joe you are a bit paranoid. What about an Engineer or the Wpns Tech with ties to the H.A. Or some pimp getting into the CIC staff to recruit some young blood. I thing the chances that you are going to get your a suicide bomber to kill you or your section while on some weekend get-away are slim. 99.999% of people are honest and hard working. You center on the bad and come up with unrealistic barriers. Can you tell a North Korean from a South Korean? Your fears are unjustified and baised on fear.
I take it by your post and picking out different nationalities you do not like and mistrust ethnic's. Have you ever met and Iraqi? A Rawandan?
In my travels they are all people. and should be treated as such.

Did you folks read my post??? I SAID I think it would be a great idea... Yes, I AGREED with you folks it might be a good idea for recruiting. I didn't touch on anything else like "would they make a good soldier"... I picked out the valid POSSIBLE threats and pointed them out. I didn't say they WOULD happen, in fact, I didn't say I thought they'd happen, I said they probably COULD happen and more likely too IF we use an incentive like that. I mentioned it's highly unlikely that it would ever happen in that way, on a weekend EX. Will Canada be subject to some kind of terrorist attack in the next 10 years? I would slate 70% yes, at some point, somehow... Whether it's a small event or large, who knows. So far we've thwarted all attempts, eg> Guys in downtown TO taking pictures or certain buildings/TARGETS where many people are everyday. They got caught, although I don't know any other details. People ARE actively trying to find ways to kill and/or terrorize fellow Canadians and/or soldiers.... If you people don't realize that then why are you in the forces? Sure many countries abroad view Canada as a great peaceful giant, but some want our blood.

Again, I didn't attack any race or country specifically, I mentioned/pointed out some of the nations that probably don't love us, or would have citizens that would wish us ill fate. Just a couple. Relax...

Grow a skin! Read a post!  ::) I wasn't being racist... I'm the farthest thing from it.

PS> I've met people from Lebanon, Sudan, Rwanda and Burundi, a Kurdish Iraqi, other mid-east people, talked with them at length about politics and the USA+Canada. Also others from many other countries, I've been proud to meet them and represent Canada to a new immigrant or citizen, I've met them due to my last job. So you folks don't need to talk to me about immigrants, I've met MANY over the last 3 years...

PPS> Sorry if I somehow offended anyone by pointing out possible threats/flaws in your perfect new immigration policy. I'm done with this thread.
 
No, we should not be catering to immigrants who wish to serve their new adopted country. Next thing you know they'll be demanding their own units based on their ethnic traditions and dress, like Scottish and Irish units..... ::)

Seriously as in most issues there are pros and cons to this debate. IIRC the US used to have a policy that gave points towards citizenship for military service. Their Special Forces made extensive use of it in the 1950's to recruit Eastern Europeans who in turn would be familiar with their potential are of operations should the cold war turn hot.

In the late 1980's early 1990's the reserve rifle coy in Toronto (A Coy Toronto Scottish) I was CSM of had more than it's fair share of recent immigrants in our ranks. For the most part they struck me as more motivated that the norm. Sure a lot were there for a specific reason, money for education and saw it as a survival job for 3-4 years tops. Then again how many can that be said about the Militia in general.

I saw some advantages in them as have already been touched on here by others. I had quite a few troops who were multi lingual, including in languages that matched potential deployment areas. The neat thing about refugees is that they're often coming from places we end up deploying to ( Haiti, Bosnia, Somalia, Afghanistan, Rwanda etc) or may deploy to (Guatemala, Colombia, Zimbabwe, Sudan etc). In addition some of the older â Å“recruitsâ ? had already done their national service prior to emigrating. Now one can argue re the quality of said third world military training, but in the end it was a bonus as is any prior experience. Included in that was the fact that I knew I had a couple of senior Ptes who had already played on the two way range, and therefore knew what it was like and could if needed pass on that experience/expertise.

On the downside like any Government sanctioned policy if this was considered and brought in then it could be open to abuse as has already been noted. With our political masters and the army of bureaucrats (uniformed and civy) who would inevitably (mis)manage such a program, there would be the potential for the lowering of standards and therefore combat capability. A specific program to target them to achieve some PC rainbow effect has the potential for a disaster, and should be carefully considered prior to any action taken.

In the end, recent immigrants, like those born here will choose, or not choose to join the CF. Perhaps a more important consideration would be to ensure that they are no extra barriers put in place for those who wish to serve. Let's face it there's enough problems with recruiting now as it is.
 
One thing to keep in mind that the US military has both sides of the coin. On one hand there are members of the US military that are proudly muslim and proudly serve the US, while on the other hand there are caucasian military members who have been snagged for being sympathetic to Al-Qaeda. I think even with the most stringent guidelines we are going to find that the occasional bad apple slips through the cracks, and again, the occasional outstanding individual may be kept from serving for a stupid reason. If you want to keep this country and it's military free of people who harbour ill-will towards us, maybe we should kick all the germans out, since Hitler did try to take over the world once. Think about that before you judge every muslim you see.
 
First off: Mover 1 - nicce picture of the M548.  Yes, they are fun.  They burn nice, too. (Lahr joke).

In principle, I see nothing wrong with targeted recruiting including immigrants.  Australia does it.  I am against a federal govt program however, because they would no doubt screw it up by ONLY allowing us to recruit people who lack English or French, education, an understanding of and sympathy for our culture, good health, etc,

In other words, the values we base our selectoin on would become secondary to the govts targetted values (look different).

So, I would not start a program where the options would inevitably and rapidly become directives.

Tom



 
No.

  I was brought in under the new management after the evicted tenants tried to melt the HQ Sqn lines in some drug addled Dungeons and Dragoons game run amok, where some young offenders in crewsuits thought the Baader-Meinhof gang should be re-incarnated by tripped out crewmen on chemicals.

Tom
 
There is a debate I've heard condemning Canada's recruitment of educated people from the developing regions in the Global South, basically saying that it's a selfish measure that does more harm than good by hindering the development of lesser developed countries.  I was wondering what others thought of this argument in relation to this post...

DJ
 
DJ said:
There is a debate I've heard condemning Canada's recruitment of educated people from the developing regions in the Global South, basically saying that it's a selfish measure that does more harm than good by hindering the development of lesser developed countries.  I was wondering what others thought of this argument in relation to this post...

DJ

First, it is broadly true; we further weaken poor countries, increasing their dependency on our charity (aid) when we hire away their doctors and engineers.

But, second, some countries, not the poorest of the poor, of course, have a real surplus of well educated, sophisticated people who are chafing under a lack of socio-economic opportunity in their homes.  Those countries - China and India, most notably - want many of these people (in whom they (the Chinese and Indian people/governments) have invested heavily) to leave, lest they ferment discontent and unrest at home.

It is generally true that migrants retain close ties with their homelands.  Those hundreds of thousands of well educated, sophisticated and entrepreneurial Chinese and Indians who move to (mainly) Australia and North America provide a conduit through which new trade and commerce flows (but some would say that conduit is, really, a fifth column).

I'm going to digress a bit, hoping this will stay within topic.

We must, first of all recognize, that there is a fundamental difference between refugees and our refugee policy, on one hand, and migrants and our immigration policy on the other.

We, like all civilized countries, have a moral duty to help those who are fleeing imminent threats to life and limb.  Most refugees, in most places, want to return home.  Our main refugee efforts should be aimed at:

Reducing the need to flee by preventing the sorts of political disasters which plague places like Somalia and Haiti.  This means that countries like Canada should help to form an lead coalitions to implement Pink Lloyd Axworthy's human security and responsibility to protect doctrines by armed intervention into the internal affairs of failing (and failed) states; and

"¢ Helping to settle, house feed and employ refugees near their homes - obviating the requirements for them to leave the area and become caught in the web of Canadian refugee determination and sporadic welfare and rule breaking.

Our immigration policy should be 99%, self serving.  We should aim to recruit and retain the people we want - not just those who want to come here.  We should, the other 1%, eschew recruiting people from the poorest-of-the-poor - we should, in fact (as another policy aim) try to improve the education and opportunities in those desperately poor nations by building local schools and staffing them with as many Canadian (well) paid locals as possible and funding local businesses and enterprises - even those which compete, as they will, with e.g. highly protected, heavily unionized, Québec based textile mills.

Just as an example, I would close most (say 3/4) immigration offices in Africa, the Caribbean and Latin America and reduce the remainder, plus all the ones in Europe, to half staff.  I would open many new immigration offices in China, India and the (to a lesser extent) the Malaysia and the Philippines and I would double the staff in most Asian offices.  Then we might get 300,000 of the educated, productive, easily integrated immigrants we want and need, including as members of the Canadian Forces, - and their parents, too (who, traditionally, look after the children while both men and women work, hard).


 
I was in the UK for the past few months training with members of the British Army (BA). They were quite vocal about this subject. They mentioned that the capabilities of the BA had suffered recently due to large scale recruitment of people from Commonwealth member nations (primarily Fiji and Jamaica). The primary concern lay with communication and dedication to the trade, etc... The feeling was that this was an avenue to make money before returning to their homeland, etc... and that the BA was worse off for it.

This is what was conveyed to me over beers, I've not seen any statistics or discussed this with any officers or bureaucrats, etc... The opinions of enlisted rank pers and I'm willing to bet that racial and personal bias are a factor. In addition, it's also too easy to lay the blame, etc...

This seemed relevant to the thread, not my personal opinion as I haven't any experience with the BA or it's personnel.

In my opinion, I've known many dogf***ers in the CF and have lots of stories, as many of us do I'm certain. Most have been Canadians. The only guy in our unit who was a recent Canadian citizen at the time was from Macedonia. He was quite laid back and didn't mind taking the easy road, especially in training. He walked the line when it came to the regs and was almost insubordinate on a daily basis, with a smile. The thing is, he was inducted into the Yugoslavian army one night when he was 17 and participated in that little side show. He felt that the CF Infantry was a joke compared to the training he received in Europe due primarily to what was going on, but he enjoyed that aspect. He basically meant that we weren't killing each other in training and implied all the other things you can imagine that went on over there. He was a combat veteran and was seriously wounded (nasty scar). He was fine with never shooting at another person again and was aiming to be a driver for an officer (figured his linguistic skills would get him that assignment). Felt that being in the CF was a better option than flipping burgers.

I considered myself to be a professional soldier at the time and worked hard to be such. He and I came at the trade with two different goals in mind, but I really liked the guy and learned some things from him. At the end of the day, I don't know where to go with this, so I'm just trying to type it up and see where it takes me.

I hope this wasn't too useless to the thread. Cheers...
 
While I watching CTV's news segment today, I saw an unusual headline on the usual news ticker that shows the short form of the day's top headlines. Unless my eyes have failed me, I distinctly remember the headline stating:

"DUTCH CF-18 PILOT GETS FAST TRACK TO CITIZENSHIP"

If I am not mistaken, from reading all the previous responses in this thread, no landed immigrants can join the CF unless they have a skill which the CF is in badly in need of, such as doctors or possibly speakers of Pashto, one of the native languages of Afghanistan. They must be citizens to join.

Still, I ran a search on the headline on this site and found nothing and ran a search on the CTV site and googled it and still found no further references to it.

If this story does prove true however, I would be baffled that they would even allow a landed immigrant who's not yet a citizen into the cockpit of a CF-18! Isn't it a landed immigrant who is able to get into the CF at all can't become an officer as well- only an NCM? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, even if the Dutch pilot was taken because he had a "skill in need of by the CF", how'd he get F-18 training if the RNLAF only has F-16s?

I thought this was the best place to post my reaction to this rather unusual headline.

??? Any thoughts?
 
Thanks for the link. I did a search on the CTV website earlier and it wasn't there when I did look.

 
CougarKing said:
If this story does prove true however, I would be baffled that they would even allow a landed immigrant who's not yet a citizen into the cockpit of a CF-18! Isn't it a landed immigrant who is able to get into the CF at all can't become an officer as well- only an NCM? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, even if the Dutch pilot was taken because he had a "skill in need of by the CF", how'd he get F-18 training if the RNLAF only has F-16s?

When you do an exchange posting, you receive the necessary training for the position you occupy.

His story began Jan. 31, 1999, when he arrived in Canada as an exchange pilot from the Royal Netherlands Air Force, based in Cold Lake, Alta. A Dutch colleague who had earlier been posted to Canada had sung the country's praises, urging him to go.
 
Michael O'Leary said:
When you do an exchange posting, you receive the necessary training for the position you occupy.

That's exactly true - he did an exchange tour with us up in Cold Lake - and we welcome him back warmly.  A great guy .... and since we are so darned short of pilots right now (as is every trade in every CF branch) he is basically "free" for us .... no public costs to train him.  It is refreshing to see some common sense prevail by fats tracking someone like this .... granted all due diligence should be accorded, but I would hate to see him turned down simply because of "bureaucratic formalities".

On the flip side of the coin we have had numerous RAF exchange Navigators from the UK serve with us on CC-130 squadrons in Trenton.  They have tried the same thing as our Dutch friend, only to be repeatedly turned down - I guess the Nav trade perhaps is not as undermanned as the pilot trade.  Some have tried to simply emigrate back to Canada, while others have tried to emigrate and enroll in the CF as a Nav ..... both avenues have failed for them.
 
Globesmasher said:
I guess the Nav trade perhaps is not as undermanned as the pilot trade.

Or perhaps it's the pilots who run the Air Force, and look after their own?
 
When I was working the recruiting center, the rules came down that the COS can grant a waiver for very specific skills: Doctors, Pilots, etc.  I tried to get a skilled Stoker in and they pretty much told me that the reserves will never see that waiver, so buddy is going to have to wait.

On the flip side, landed immigrants were allowed in the reserves before '03, it was just necessary for them to get citizenship in 3 years.  I have a feeling that we will be revisiting that avenue soon, at least for NCM's in the reserve.  The catch is that these individuals were not deployable. 

The US has a similar system to recruit landed immigrants, a watch and shoot thing.
 
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