First Nations - CF help, protests, solutions, residential schools, etc. (merged)

[Colin Parkinson]

As a Canadian taxpayer, are you sure you want to be ultimately responsible for wells dug by individuals in remote communities, digging them on (essentially) Canadian government property (reserve lands are held in trust by the Crown, but still ...)?

The more things we get them to do for themselves, the better off everyone is.

 

[lenaitch]

The more things we get them to do for themselves, the better off everyone is.

Fair, but the discussion just becomes great big circles. If we want them to drill their own wells (or build their own houses, etc.), we have to give them the financial capacity to do that, and in order for them to have the financial capacity to do all that stuff, they need either the title to the land and what's on it/under it or the financial ability to benefit from it (taxes, royalties, etc.). How much national income are we willing to forego? Would be more or less than the money we currently spend to keep FNs as federal 'wards'? Is revenue-sharing or title what they want? I'm not convinced that is settled within the multiple FN communities.

It might be a little easier for a FN community near the populated south, where they could maybe convince a company to plunk a factory down in the territory, but for remote communities, 'the land' is all they have. Even in the south, corporations are reluctant to invest on FNTs without federal government invention because the application of business law WRT to FNTs is a bit of grey zone.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Fair, but the discussion just becomes great big circles. If we want them to drill their own wells (or build their own houses, etc.), we have to give them the financial capacity to do that, and in order for them to have the financial capacity to do all that stuff, they need either the title to the land and what's on it/under it or the financial ability to benefit from it (taxes, royalties, etc.). How much national income are we willing to forego? Would be more or less than the money we currently spend to keep FNs as federal 'wards'? Is revenue-sharing or title what they want? I'm not convinced that is settled within the multiple FN communities.

It might be a little easier for a FN community near the populated south, where they could maybe convince a company to plunk a factory down in the territory, but for remote communities, 'the land' is all they have. Even in the south, corporations are reluctant to invest on FNTs without federal government invention because the application of business law WRT to FNTs is a bit of grey zone.

Took the words right out of my keyboard

The more things we get them to do for themselves, the better off everyone is.

What kind of time frame are you looking at for the transition, though?

There's still people in what used to be INAC saying, "our job is to work ourselves out of a job" re: handing over more services. Since some form of the department's been around for about 270 years, and the Indian Act's been around for about 150 years, to borrow a quote from "Yes, Minister" talking about other long-running processes resistant to change/reform, "I think perhaps it may be coming towards the end of its trial period now."

Also, there's a number of interests that benefit from prefer the status quo, which does the communities and organizations who want to charge ahead no favours. It ain't just The Federation dealing with Alberta/Quebec-style tugs of war

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The number of bands taking up responsibility is growing, it's a slow process, but eventually there will be a major shift in mindset and the one complaining and doing nothing for themselves will get their arse kicked by the more active ones. We need a Federal police force made up of Indigenous members, likley attached to the RCMP, but with their own uniforms and badges, that can go into a Reserve and help them deal with gangs and drugs.

 

[brihard]

We need a Federal police force made up of Indigenous members, likley attached to the RCMP, but with their own uniforms and badges, that can go into a Reserve and help them deal with gangs and drugs.

Why should they be federal, with all the clunkiness that entails? That sort of policing generally doesn’t fall in the federal sphere, that type of stuff is squarely municipal/provincial policing.

 

[dapaterson]

Why should they be federal, with all the clunkiness that entails? That sort of policing generally doesn’t fall in the federal sphere, that type of stuff is squarely municipal/provincial policing.

RCMP contract policing be all

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Why should they be federal, with all the clunkiness that entails? That sort of policing generally doesn’t fall in the federal sphere, that type of stuff is squarely municipal/provincial policing.

Federal, so they can go across the country and assist the existing police forces and removes the "White man factor" . Of course the gangs and corrupt officials will stay claim they are lackeys. But they hopefully will impact the youth and give them an idea there is a better future than what the gangs offer.
They need support from the national FN associations and Provincial or Treaty associations to have a lot of authority when they enter. Some Indigenous bookkeepers and accountants coming along would be useful in some cases.

 

[The Bread Guy]

The number of bands taking up responsibility is growing, it's a slow process, but eventually there will be a major shift in mindset and the one complaining and doing nothing for themselves will get their arse kicked by the more active ones. We need a Federal police force made up of Indigenous members, likley attached to the RCMP, but with their own uniforms and badges, that can go into a Reserve and help them deal with gangs and drugs.

Methinks Club Fed, which in some provinces funds ~1/2 the costs of Indigenous police services (that's the approximate breakdown in Ontario, anyway), may be underwhelmed by that option

RCMP contract policing be all

 

[Booter]

Keep them unattached to the rcmp please.

Federal, so they can go across the country and assist the existing police forces and removes the "White man factor" . Of course the gangs and corrupt officials will stay claim they are lackeys. But they hopefully will impact the youth and give them an idea there is a better future than what the gangs offer.
They need support from the national FN associations and Provincial or Treaty associations to have a lot of authority when they enter. Some Indigenous bookkeepers and accountants coming along would be useful in some cases.

none of this needs the RCMP.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Federal, so they can go across the country and assist the existing police forces and removes the "White man factor" . Of course the gangs and corrupt officials will stay claim they are lackeys. But they hopefully will impact the youth and give them an idea there is a better future than what the gangs offer.
They need support from the national FN associations and Provincial or Treaty associations to have a lot of authority when they enter. Some Indigenous bookkeepers and accountants coming along would be useful in some cases.

Don't start duplicating federal agencies because "white man factor". This is just another apartheid-like solution which would perpetuate apartheid-like problems.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Keep them unattached to the rcmp please.

none of this needs the RCMP.

I am hanging it on the RCMP HR and training side, to prevent having to build a complete organization, but different roles, uniform, badging and reporting structure. Just like CCG is a Special Operating Agency under the DFO. How much support the RCMP gives could be negotiable.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I am hanging it on the RCMP HR and training side, to prevent having to build a complete organization, but different roles, uniform, badging and reporting structure. Just like CCG is a Special Operating Agency under the DFO. How much support the RCMP gives could be negotiable.

How about the St Roch?

 

[lenaitch]

I am hanging it on the RCMP HR and training side, to prevent having to build a complete organization, but different roles, uniform, badging and reporting structure. Just like CCG is a Special Operating Agency under the DFO. How much support the RCMP gives could be negotiable.

If they truly want to be self-governing, then a complete and distinct organization should be the the long-term goal. In Ontario, there are 12 FN police services; some individual community service and some deployed or treaty based. There is a small number of FNTs that opted to continue to be policed by the OPP. All still use provincial resources such as the Ontario Police College, Ontario Coroner and Pathology Services and the Centre of Forensic Sciences and all are operationally supported by the OPP as required.

Having said that, I see no operational benefit for some kind of pan-Canadian FN police service. They are not a single block of peoples.

 

[Booter]

like any small police service they will require an MOU for specialized services. Which can be the RCMP or anyone else.

Part of the issue for FN is the institutional baggage of the RCMP. They need to be broken off from it and control their policing. And deal with the issues they encounter with their own services

 

[RangerRay]

Federal, so they can go across the country and assist the existing police forces and removes the "White man factor" . Of course the gangs and corrupt officials will stay claim they are lackeys. But they hopefully will impact the youth and give them an idea there is a better future than what the gangs offer.
They need support from the national FN associations and Provincial or Treaty associations to have a lot of authority when they enter. Some Indigenous bookkeepers and accountants coming along would be useful in some cases.

The Manitoba First Nations Police has been growing by leaps and bounds, taking over detachments from the RCMP.

Community Detachments | MFNPS | First Nations Police

Learn about the communities and detachments served by MFNPS - Manitoba First Nations Police Service. Find contact information and locations for each detachment.

www.mfnp.ca

 

[Colin Parkinson]

If they truly want to be self-governing, then a complete and distinct organization should be the the long-term goal. In Ontario, there are 12 FN police services; some individual community service and some deployed or treaty based. There is a small number of FNTs that opted to continue to be policed by the OPP. All still use provincial resources such as the Ontario Police College, Ontario Coroner and Pathology Services and the Centre of Forensic Sciences and all are operationally supported by the OPP as required.

Having said that, I see no operational benefit for some kind of pan-Canadian FN police service. They are not a single block of peoples.

I deeply understand they are not a single block of people, but a pan-Canadian indigenous force that come in and reinforce the local force and perhaps deal with issues like corruption in the band council would help a lot.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

like any small police service they will require an MOU for specialized services. Which can be the RCMP or anyone else.

Part of the issue for FN is the institutional baggage of the RCMP. They need to be broken off from it and control their policing. And deal with the issues they encounter with their own services

I get that, but I am thinking baby steps, the RCMP is the only Federal police force with facilities, experience and HR structure to get such a force moving quickly. It's going to be small at first as you recruit, train and need some form of administration. later on they can be free standing.

 

[foresterab]

I deeply understand they are not a single block of people, but a pan-Canadian indigenous force that come in and reinforce the local force and perhaps deal with issues like corruption in the band council would help a lot.

Understand the concern on the corruption side...but maybe that's not so much policing as strong rules and enforcement through INAC or CRA?

The bigger issue I see is a First Nation police member going into communities and someone assuming that First Nation is equal everywhere. Put a Blackfoot officer into a Cree community in Alberta....not good. Or a Cree into a Dene Thai...despite them being inter-married a fair amount...but they are not the same.

I often think of First Nation cultural clashes in the context of the Middle East. Family vs. Family...but an outsider picking on a Family will cause the Tribal group to rise up...and if a common foe the entire region. Add in all the different family groups within a First Nation Community, vs. Community vs. Community battles vs. Tribal context vs. Indigenous heritage against outsiders....can be an interesting coffee discussion with groups as you have experienced I'm sure.

That being said there are groups....slowly for sure but progressing...that are leveraging what opportunities they can find to create a better state of affairs. Many have preferential hiring for other Indigenous backgrounds (after their own community capacity is tapped out) which in turn is creating additional ripple effects from other community members learning and providing feedback. And then pride gets involved..."if those no-good so and so's down the road are doing this why aren't we? We're better than those guys...." which in turn creates some additional momentum.

The path for each community will be different...whether it's opportunities available, local capacity/knowledge, cultural assimilation fears, or finding the right leadership at the right time. But I would say things are on a much better trajectory than even 10-20 years ago when the term "impossible" was thrown around commonly...and now it's "when we can..."

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I have seen the same shift as well, but I still feel a National Indigenous force is going to be needed, the issues of tribes that you just mentioned are real, but you work with what you have. When you have a FN community in a crisis and 5 Indigenous officers arrive the bolster the existing services, who can say; "Spare me the woe is me story, been there and done that as well", I think you see that demand for that service will soon outstrip the personal available.

 

[lenaitch]

I can see the arguments, but there would be a lot of push back from the FN services and provinces that have spent a lot of blood and treasure establishing what exists now. It certainly isn't perfect; stable staffing and funding are still issues.

Another advantage of the current situation is it works within existing legislation and only needs MOUs to operate. Establishing a federal FN police service would no doubt require federal legislation because the administration of justice is a provincial responsibility. Carving out federal enclaves within the provinces would be akin to going back to the days when the RCMP handled FNTs in Ontario and Quebec.

The issue of band council corruption is little different than municipal corruption. If a complaint is raised, the local FN PS/detachment would likely defer to an adjacent one.

In the remote Ontario FNs I operated on, the 'family mafia' effect was strong. Most only had a handful of families. I don't see flying in a Mohawk team from Tyendinaga to conduct an investigation on a northern Cree territory as going all that well.