All Things First Nations - CF help, protests, solutions, residential schools, etc. (merged)

[lenaitch]

What do remote dwellers more or less by themselves do?

What do communities that don't even have "village" status do?

What do company towns do when there is no company?

These problems have all been solved before. No-one has to be forced off "their land". Everyone has the responsibility to make a go of it where he wants to live, or to move to where he can.

If we managed to remove any 'special' status or treaty rights, then you are correct. The concept of "their land", or traditional territories, flow from the treaties.

 

[The Bread Guy]

What do remote dwellers more or less by themselves do?

What do communities that don't even have "village" status do?

How many of said communities have a contract of sorts signed by the Crown saying, "hey, don't sweat - let us use the land and we'll take care of you?"

 

[The Bread Guy]

I don't want to turn this into a thread about First Nations ...

You don't have to - since a lot of the discussion is more about FNs and less about how FNs might affect the current gov't, I've moved the "how FN do things" stuff here

Army.ca Staff

 

[Kirkhill]

What do remote dwellers more or less by themselves do?

What do communities that don't even have "village" status do?

What do company towns do when there is no company?

These problems have all been solved before. No-one has to be forced off "their land". Everyone has the responsibility to make a go of it where he wants to live, or to move to where he can.

What do the retired do?

Make hay while the sun shines.

 

[Lumber]

I recall a story of a very very small band, can't remember if it's in Ontario or Alberta, where they were going through a conundrum and were requesting the Fed's help. Basically, when the band formed as an independent self-governing body a few decades ago, they decided that they would have a Chief who is appointed by a council of elders to serve something like 23 year terms. The Chief has a lot of power, and there was no mechanism for "impeachment". In fact, I think the Chief even had the power to appoint the members of the council of elders; not clear on that part. Anyways, it started off well, but then the Chief slowly started appointing all his friends and family to all the key power positions and they are basically running it like an autocracy. The people wanted him out, but they literally control everything. From what I recall, the Feds basically washed their hands and said "hey, this is the system of government you wanted." Not sure what ever happened in the end, but I don't recall any stories about a Chief's head on a pike, so hopefully they came to an amicable solution.

Found an update! The Chief was removed and that decision was upheld by a federal court.

It was actually appointment "for life" with just a "review" after 21 years.

Federal Court Affirms Removal of First Nations Chief and Councillors Appointed for Life

www.mccarthy.ca

 

[Colin Parkinson]

As a Canadian taxpayer, are you sure you want to be ultimately responsible for wells dug by individuals in remote communities, digging them on (essentially) Canadian government property (reserve lands are held in trust by the Crown, but still ...)?

The more things we get them to do for themselves, the better off everyone is.

 

[lenaitch]

The more things we get them to do for themselves, the better off everyone is.

Fair, but the discussion just becomes great big circles. If we want them to drill their own wells (or build their own houses, etc.), we have to give them the financial capacity to do that, and in order for them to have the financial capacity to do all that stuff, they need either the title to the land and what's on it/under it or the financial ability to benefit from it (taxes, royalties, etc.). How much national income are we willing to forego? Would be more or less than the money we currently spend to keep FNs as federal 'wards'? Is revenue-sharing or title what they want? I'm not convinced that is settled within the multiple FN communities.

It might be a little easier for a FN community near the populated south, where they could maybe convince a company to plunk a factory down in the territory, but for remote communities, 'the land' is all they have. Even in the south, corporations are reluctant to invest on FNTs without federal government invention because the application of business law WRT to FNTs is a bit of grey zone.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Fair, but the discussion just becomes great big circles. If we want them to drill their own wells (or build their own houses, etc.), we have to give them the financial capacity to do that, and in order for them to have the financial capacity to do all that stuff, they need either the title to the land and what's on it/under it or the financial ability to benefit from it (taxes, royalties, etc.). How much national income are we willing to forego? Would be more or less than the money we currently spend to keep FNs as federal 'wards'? Is revenue-sharing or title what they want? I'm not convinced that is settled within the multiple FN communities.

It might be a little easier for a FN community near the populated south, where they could maybe convince a company to plunk a factory down in the territory, but for remote communities, 'the land' is all they have. Even in the south, corporations are reluctant to invest on FNTs without federal government invention because the application of business law WRT to FNTs is a bit of grey zone.

Took the words right out of my keyboard

The more things we get them to do for themselves, the better off everyone is.

What kind of time frame are you looking at for the transition, though?

There's still people in what used to be INAC saying, "our job is to work ourselves out of a job" re: handing over more services. Since some form of the department's been around for about 270 years, and the Indian Act's been around for about 150 years, to borrow a quote from "Yes, Minister" talking about other long-running processes resistant to change/reform, "I think perhaps it may be coming towards the end of its trial period now."

Also, there's a number of interests that benefit from prefer the status quo, which does the communities and organizations who want to charge ahead no favours. It ain't just The Federation dealing with Alberta/Quebec-style tugs of war

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The number of bands taking up responsibility is growing, it's a slow process, but eventually there will be a major shift in mindset and the one complaining and doing nothing for themselves will get their arse kicked by the more active ones. We need a Federal police force made up of Indigenous members, likley attached to the RCMP, but with their own uniforms and badges, that can go into a Reserve and help them deal with gangs and drugs.

 

[brihard]

We need a Federal police force made up of Indigenous members, likley attached to the RCMP, but with their own uniforms and badges, that can go into a Reserve and help them deal with gangs and drugs.

Why should they be federal, with all the clunkiness that entails? That sort of policing generally doesn’t fall in the federal sphere, that type of stuff is squarely municipal/provincial policing.

 

[dapaterson]

Why should they be federal, with all the clunkiness that entails? That sort of policing generally doesn’t fall in the federal sphere, that type of stuff is squarely municipal/provincial policing.

RCMP contract policing be all

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Why should they be federal, with all the clunkiness that entails? That sort of policing generally doesn’t fall in the federal sphere, that type of stuff is squarely municipal/provincial policing.

Federal, so they can go across the country and assist the existing police forces and removes the "White man factor" . Of course the gangs and corrupt officials will stay claim they are lackeys. But they hopefully will impact the youth and give them an idea there is a better future than what the gangs offer.
They need support from the national FN associations and Provincial or Treaty associations to have a lot of authority when they enter. Some Indigenous bookkeepers and accountants coming along would be useful in some cases.

 

[The Bread Guy]

The number of bands taking up responsibility is growing, it's a slow process, but eventually there will be a major shift in mindset and the one complaining and doing nothing for themselves will get their arse kicked by the more active ones. We need a Federal police force made up of Indigenous members, likley attached to the RCMP, but with their own uniforms and badges, that can go into a Reserve and help them deal with gangs and drugs.

Methinks Club Fed, which in some provinces funds ~1/2 the costs of Indigenous police services (that's the approximate breakdown in Ontario, anyway), may be underwhelmed by that option

RCMP contract policing be all

 

[Booter]

Keep them unattached to the rcmp please.

Federal, so they can go across the country and assist the existing police forces and removes the "White man factor" . Of course the gangs and corrupt officials will stay claim they are lackeys. But they hopefully will impact the youth and give them an idea there is a better future than what the gangs offer.
They need support from the national FN associations and Provincial or Treaty associations to have a lot of authority when they enter. Some Indigenous bookkeepers and accountants coming along would be useful in some cases.

none of this needs the RCMP.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Federal, so they can go across the country and assist the existing police forces and removes the "White man factor" . Of course the gangs and corrupt officials will stay claim they are lackeys. But they hopefully will impact the youth and give them an idea there is a better future than what the gangs offer.
They need support from the national FN associations and Provincial or Treaty associations to have a lot of authority when they enter. Some Indigenous bookkeepers and accountants coming along would be useful in some cases.

Don't start duplicating federal agencies because "white man factor". This is just another apartheid-like solution which would perpetuate apartheid-like problems.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Keep them unattached to the rcmp please.

none of this needs the RCMP.

I am hanging it on the RCMP HR and training side, to prevent having to build a complete organization, but different roles, uniform, badging and reporting structure. Just like CCG is a Special Operating Agency under the DFO. How much support the RCMP gives could be negotiable.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I am hanging it on the RCMP HR and training side, to prevent having to build a complete organization, but different roles, uniform, badging and reporting structure. Just like CCG is a Special Operating Agency under the DFO. How much support the RCMP gives could be negotiable.

How about the St Roch?

 

[lenaitch]

I am hanging it on the RCMP HR and training side, to prevent having to build a complete organization, but different roles, uniform, badging and reporting structure. Just like CCG is a Special Operating Agency under the DFO. How much support the RCMP gives could be negotiable.

If they truly want to be self-governing, then a complete and distinct organization should be the the long-term goal. In Ontario, there are 12 FN police services; some individual community service and some deployed or treaty based. There is a small number of FNTs that opted to continue to be policed by the OPP. All still use provincial resources such as the Ontario Police College, Ontario Coroner and Pathology Services and the Centre of Forensic Sciences and all are operationally supported by the OPP as required.

Having said that, I see no operational benefit for some kind of pan-Canadian FN police service. They are not a single block of peoples.

 

[Booter]

like any small police service they will require an MOU for specialized services. Which can be the RCMP or anyone else.

Part of the issue for FN is the institutional baggage of the RCMP. They need to be broken off from it and control their policing. And deal with the issues they encounter with their own services

 

[RangerRay]

Federal, so they can go across the country and assist the existing police forces and removes the "White man factor" . Of course the gangs and corrupt officials will stay claim they are lackeys. But they hopefully will impact the youth and give them an idea there is a better future than what the gangs offer.
They need support from the national FN associations and Provincial or Treaty associations to have a lot of authority when they enter. Some Indigenous bookkeepers and accountants coming along would be useful in some cases.

The Manitoba First Nations Police has been growing by leaps and bounds, taking over detachments from the RCMP.

Community Detachments | MFNPS | First Nations Police

Learn about the communities and detachments served by MFNPS - Manitoba First Nations Police Service. Find contact information and locations for each detachment.

www.mfnp.ca