"First Nations told to attest to ancestry................."

[the 48th regulator]

It wasn't even my bleeping anecdote and I sourced it.  I didn't think there was an argument.  Nothing I would care to dispute unless you believe that the Ashkenazi Jews were a population isolate with no admixture over time.  I'd argue against that.  They are the most DNA'd people in the world.

You made a statement.

I found it absurd.

I challenge you.

You present further facts, to strengthen your argument.

I retort, with facts as well, and prove your statement odd.

You admit that it was anecdotal, which proves, that heresy should be left at that.

Now you are pulling pole and throw your "friend" under the bus....

A phack... I fell into one of your traps

I pull away. 

dileas

tess

 

[mariomike]

throw your "friend" under the bus....

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Listen to Tess.  While nominally European the Jews from the Iberian peninsula were ethnically Sephardic, ie. from the Mediterranean latitudes.  They differ from the Ashkenazies not only culturally (food, music, etc. )  but religiously too as their liturgies are shorter. 
Furthermore, the Sepharidm who fled the Inquisiton tended to go to the British Isles or the New World.  There is no tradition of Sephardim in Eastern Europe which is why they wouldn't know the Ashkenazie Yiddishisms  that Tess quotes so eloquently. ;D

From the wiki article on Sephardim:  "Following the 1492 expulsion from Spain, and the subsequent expulsions in Portugal (1497), these Jews, the nascent Sephardim, settled mainly in Morocco, the Ottoman Empire (the modern-day Balkans, Anatolia, the Levant and North Africa - see also History of the Jews in Turkey), southern France, Italy, Spanish North America, (Southwest United States New Mexico, Texas (Tejano), Arizona, and Mexico), Spanish South America and the Philippines and Portuguese Brazil, as well as the Netherlands (whence a number of families continued on to the former Dutch possessions of Curaçao, Suriname and Aruba), England (as well as English colonies such as Jamaica), Germany, Denmark, Austria and Hungary".

No mention of any traveling to Eastern Europe.

 

[tango22a]

Guys:

All I want to know is: Which one of you guys took my picture after "recceguy" threw me under the bus on another thread??


tango22a

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

No mention of any traveling to Eastern Europe.

Don't know what the problem with your search engine is?

http://www.avotaynu.com/sephardim.htm

http://www.khazaria.com/westernjews.html

Some Sephardic Jews from Spain, Portugal, and Turkey also found their way to Poland and Romania and intermarried with Ashkenazic Jews. This has been confirmed by investigating numerous individual families' genealogies, some of which have Sephardic surnames and oral traditions of Sephardic ancestry. The Rappaport families came from northern Italy to eastern Europe, but one theory contends that they originated in Oporto, Portugal. Other Sephardic surnames include Peretz and Basson. The existence of Sephardic Jews in Poland and Russia is briefly cited in the famous genealogy books by Dan Rottenberg (Finding Our Fathers) and Arthur Kurzweil (From Generation to Generation). An example of a town where Sephardic Jews settled is Zamosc in Poland.

http://www.polishjews.org/history1.htm

Among the new arrivals there were not only the Ashkenazim, banished from the countries belonging to the Habsburg monarchy, that is Germany, Bohemia, Hungary and Lower Silesia (in the 1580's the whole of Silesia had only two Jewish communities, in Glogow and Biala), but also the Sephardim who were driven away from Spain and Portugal. Moreover many Sephardic Jews from Italy and Turkey came to Poland of their own free will.

http://ha-historion.blogspot.com/2006/12/sephardim-and-yiddish.html
[/quote]The founders of the Zamocz Jewish community were Sephardic Jews, in fact King Casimir of Poland only permitted Spanish and Portugese Jews (mostly merchants from the Ottoman empire)to settle there.
[/quote]

http://ha-historion.blogspot.com/2009/01/calahora-remarkable-sephardic-family-in.html

Dr. Solomon Kalahora, Personal Physician to the Polish Monarch Sygmund August(1520-1572) and his successor King Stephen Bathory (1533-1586), was a Sephardic Jew (in some sources a converso/anus) who settled in Cracow, Poland in the 16th century[1]. Though the Kalahoras (The name would later undergo many variations and changes including: Kolhari, Kolchor, Kolchory, Kalifari, Calaforra, Kalvari, Landsberg Posner, Zweigenbaul, Rabowsky, Olschwitz and Misky) had come to Poland from Italy, the family name was based on the name of the Spanish town of Calahorra from where the family originated.

http://www.zchor.org/heritage/history.htm

Towards the end of the Middle Ages Jews lived in 85 towns in Poland and their total number amounted to 18,000 in Poland and 6,000 in Lithuania, which represented merely 0.6 per cent of the total population of the two states. The 16th and the first half of the 17th century saw increased settlement and a relatively fast rate of natural population growth among both Polish and Lithuanian Jews. The number of immigrants also grew, especially in the 16th century.

Among the new arrivals there were not only the Ashkenazim, banished from the countries belonging to the Habsburg monarchy, that is Germany, Bohemia, Hungary and Lower Silesia (in the 1580's the whole of Silesia had only two Jewish communities, in Glogow and Biala), but also the Sephardim who were driven away from Spain and Portugal. Moreover many Sephardic Jews from Italy and Turkey came to Poland of their own free will.

Poland and Lithuania had only 24,000 Jews 500 years ago.  A relatively small influx with hundreds of years of population growth shows why so many Ashkenazi Jews claim some Iberian ancestry.

These search results are from the first Google page.  There are 3,600 more.  I thought Iberian ancestry among Ashkenazi Jews was common historical knowledge.  Was I ever wrong!

People often tend to discount the amount of travel done in days of 2 feet transportation.  In 1766/1767 some my ancestors did a couple thousand mile trek accross Europe.  The Gypsies move from India into the Mediterranean and Europe.  We need only look to Paul of the Bible who regularly travelled around the Empire.

Maybe this guy had Sephardic ancestry.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shimon_Peres

 

[Shec]

People often tend to discount the amount of travel done in days of 2 feet transportation.  In 1766/1767 some my ancestors did a couple thousand mile trek accross Europe.  The Gypsies move from India into the Mediterranean and Europe.  We need only look to Paul of the Bible who regularly travelled around the Empire.

True enough and exemplifies the stereotypical "wandering Jew".  But it is the culture that is the deteminant of one's ethnic origin so we are really talking about social history.  And it is what one eats that often defines one's ethnicity.  So, I direct you to Claudia Roden's excellent The Book of Jewish Food: An Odyssey from Samarkand to New York which is as much a  social history as it is a cookbook.  While arguably it is a "pop" reference  rather than a learned, academic,  work it traces the ethnicity of Jewish communities  the world over, clearly and accurately distinguishing by ethnic/cultural base, Ashkenazie and Sephardic.  Furthermore, as I said earlier the liturgies  in  religious services sublty differ, Ashkenazie  readings being noticeably longer .

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/product-description/0394532589/ref=dp_proddesc_0?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books

May I recommend the stuffed Hungarian peppers (pg. 168)

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

True enough and exemplifies the stereotypical "wandering Jew".  But it is the culture that is the deteminant of one's ethnic origin so we are really talking about social history.  And it is what one eats that often defines one's ethnicity.  So, I direct you to Claudia Roden's excellent The Book of Jewish Food: An Odyssey from Samarkand to New York which is as much a  social history as it is a cookbook.  While arguably it is a "pop" reference  rather than a learned, academic,  work it traces the ethnicity of Jewish communities  the world over, clearly and accurately distinguishing by ethnic/cultural base, Ashkenazie and Sephardic.  Furthermore, as I said earlier the liturgies  in  religious services sublty differ, Ashkenazie  readings being noticeably longer .

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/product-description/0394532589/ref=dp_proddesc_0?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books

May I recommend the stuffed Hungarian peppers (pg. 168)

Most Spanish Jews that ended up in Eastern Europe were thoroughly assimilated into the Ashkenazi population.

Shimon Peres may have a Spanish name but is a Belarus born Ashkenazi Jew, just like I have a German name but am a thoroughly Heinz 57 Canadian.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Fascinating stuff, but it has as much to with the topic as the Battle of Baden Hill.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Don't know what the problem with your search engine is?

Actually I never thought of using a search engine - bad on my part. However, we seem to be wandering from the original subject. I would like to discuss this subject so may be this should split this off into another thread?