Fish fight left a stench

[Acorn]

Thankfully it never came to shots fired in anger, however, I submit that the Spanish would have come off badly had they tried to project any military force into our waters.

Acorn

 

[Infanteer]

Funny, if we would have traded shots with either Spain or Denmark over our waters in the last 10 years, it would have shot the "Democratic Peace" (Democracies don't fight) theory to bits.

Could you imagine Canada being responsible for wrecking a key piece of Liberal IR doctrine?

 

[Slim]

Funny, if we would have traded shots with either Spain or Denmark over our waters in the last 10 years, it would have shot the "Democratic Peace" (Democracies don't fight) theory to bits.

Could you imagine Canada being responsible for wrecking a key piece of Liberal IR doctrine?

TeeHeeHee...! ;D

 

[TCBF]

"Thankfully it never came to shots fired in anger, however, I submit that the Spanish would have come off badly had they tried to project any military force into our waters."

Out of my arcs.

Okay, all you Sailors dig out Janes and your slide rules and tell us who would have won.  Any wargamers out there?  How about developing a wargame "A Fish Too Far" or somesuch.

Factor in our odds of beating the Spanish in an all out Air/Sea war scenario, bearing in mind the size of;

1.  The entire Spanish fleet.
2.  The Canadian East Coast fleet.
3.  Whatever aviation either side could bring to bear, include Spanish F-18s with mid air refueling from the Azores.  (?)
4.  Special Purpose Forces, used to destroy/deny shore based assets.
5.  Anything else for interesting options.

Tom

 

[Acorn]

It might surprise you to know that some of us may have done that Tom (professionally or not). The Spanish lose. (Hint one: projecting F/A-18s across the Atlantic with a combat load is only one of the little absurdities when considering Spanish superiority - don't forget we also have them, and know full well their capabilities and limitations).

The Spaniards would have been embarrassed in a very costly (human and treasure) way had it come to a shooting war.

Acorn

 

[childs56]

my comment was not to be taken sereiously about the Newfies. the majority of my family is from Newfoundland, most of whom are or were fishermen. I myself am a Bluenoser. They themselves have joked about this matter of them taken out the fishing fleets of other countries with a few shot guns and such. It is the same as shooting the S^%&, if you took offence to it then well not really my problem. I am glad the whole situation did not esculate as a small war would have been an embarrasment for both countries. cheers

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

What's a Bluenoser?

 

[jmacleod]

A complex question. Go to the site of the Nova Scotia Archives and Records Management
Halifax Nova Scotia for "Bluenose: A Canadian Icon" to the paragraph "How The Bluenose
Got It's Name". There are a number of opinions of where the original term came from to
define a Nova Scotian, which has been in the public domain since at least 1760. MacLeod

 

[Island Ryhno]

A couple of things about this whole discussion. 1) Brian Tobin was a very intelligent man and extremely politically savvy, hence his near becoming prime minister of Canada. What he did during the "turbot wars" was draw attention to a situation that was then devastating and is now still devasting to the Newfoundland economy. Understanding that everything a politician does is to his political benifit. I wonder what the reaction would be had it been, say foreigners taking lumber out of BC, do you think that any politician who stood up there would be mocked? 2) Have any of you seen St.John's? The entrance to St.John's harbour is called the narrows, it is flanked on both sides by extremely high hills (Signal Hill and Fort Amherst) and was the traditional harbour defence site. Bringing todays firepower into those positions would make it highly unlikely that any unwanted ships could reach the city. 3) Why is people figure that they can throw the word "Newfie" around whenever they want and assume it's not their problem if people from Newfoundland get offended? I had a discussion with TSN columnist Alex Walling when he wrote the article "Newfie Soap Opera" in regards to the QMJHL team coming here etc. He explained to me that since he had lived here for 10 years it gave him the right to call us Newfies  :-\ I guess then if you live in Toronto for 10 years you are entitled to use derogatory names for black, chinese, greek, italian, sikh people also. I was suprised when Coleen Jones lost her curling title that he didn't title it "Bluenose goes down again" But then that's just me.

 

[TCBF]

"It might surprise you to know that some of us may have done that Tom (professionally or not). "

Thanks.  As I said, I'm out of my arcs on that one.

Tom

 

[Cloud Cover]

It might surprise you to know that some of us may have done that Tom (professionally or not). The Spanish lose. (Hint one: projecting F/A-18s across the Atlantic with a combat load is only one of the little absurdities when considering Spanish superiority - don't forget we also have them, and know full well their capabilities and limitations).

The Spaniards would have been embarrassed in a very costly (human and treasure) way had it come to a shooting war.

Acorn

Maybe, if we really had our ships and aircraft working together for coordinated attacks.

These are only my thoughts, as I have been out of the Navy for quite some time, and I seriously doubt the guys still in are going to comment on this to any degree.

The only practical anti surface weapon the Navy has is the Harpoon, which the Spanish also have. If the outcome was predicated on that weapon alone, the issue would be very much in doubt.  Both sides have guns, but if the ships were that close, it would be because they are going to VERTREP beer in exchange for Sangria or Amaretto ...

If, by chance, the Cf-18 had a go at a Spanish ship, the CRV 7 in the anti shipping role would be rather devastating, and there is no effective shipboard countermeasure other than good armour and fire fighting skills. If the attack went via Dawn Patrol ["Out of the Sun"!!!], especially if launched while the Chorizo is being thrown into the frying pan, the whole thing might be over before the line up at Timmies gets too long. A very low level supersonic run up to about 3 kms the ships would be required, then the Hornet would have to hit the brakes, climb slightly, then dip the nose down to aim and fire the rockets, release counter measures, take off on afterburners to escape the SM-1 response.  Bear in mind, a ship is always moving and the attack would be more successful if it was rendered such that the 76mm Oto on the Perry or the 5" on the Knox were either obstructed [a head on attack on the former and a stern attack on the latter.] 
or could not train fast enough to engage the inbound.

I don't think we had any PGM's at the time. A CF-18 pilot flying at any altitude over a Perry class frigate for an unguided bomb run would be a very brave pilot since the direction of the aircraft is predictable. I served  a stint on HMAS Darwin, a Perry class frigate, and I can tell you that after the USS Stark took an Exocet, the more professional Navy's that operate the class of ship routinely drill for AAD against that sort of attack ... and they are damn good at it.  Any weapon that requires the aircraft to loiter on station while guiding it would likely have an interesting day, to say the least. 

Without a good plan and well trained pilots, those SM-1's on the Perry and Knox frigates could punch the CF-18's right out of the sky if they come in at anything other than low altitude for a CRV attack without other factors working to optimize the attack. The PDMS would finish off those that get too close. It would be critical to make sure the Spanish would not get into a tactical position to set up a missile trap, ala RN in the Falklands [when they finally figured out how to deny the airspace to the A4's.] The known presence of a SSK might take care of that, as they would want to put some distance between ships.

A CPF Harpoon attack, or multiples thereof, might be a good decoy for a CF-18 attack. Vice versa woul be interesting as well .... 

I don't know how good the Spanish ESM and ECM were at the time, but they are probably on par with us now. Their new AAD destroyer would be problematic, but they didn't have it back then. 

On the other hand, a Harpoon attack from an SSK, and it's game over for the opposing surface fleet. Unfortunately, that is a game for which the powers in charge of the Canadian Navy have chosen not to equip the boats.

For the life of me, I don't know why we also don't fit a dozen of the CF-18's with the hard points and related electronics for Harpoons. Nobody would think seriously of fooling around on the surface in the 200 mile EEZ zone, and the overall cost is not very high.

At the end of the day, I agree Jack T would be due for a good run ashore if he had really to TCB. At least, the ones still alive. I don't know what jet jockeys do for amusement ....

 

[GK .Dundas]

Does anyone know where Spain's carrier was during this fracas?
As for the air launch version of the harpoon as I recall for the 18 all that is required is a software download.( I think, it's been a long time since I've had to deal with this)

 

[Acorn]

The fact of the matter is that Spain would have been trying to project force into our back yard. IIRC they didn't have Perrys or Knoxs at the time (they have them now, of course) and their carrier was a "through-deck cruiser" type Harrier platform. At the time they didn't have SM-1, and their sub capabilities were pretty pathetic (even compared to our three O-boats).

The point is moot anyway.

Acorn

 

[TCBF]

"The point is moot anyway."

Heck, most of our threads are moot. That's why this aint on the DWAN. ;D

Tom

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Actually the Spanish navy did have the Knox's and Perry classes back then. My impressions of the Spanish navy back then was not that high. While they were good they were no where near as good as they are now. We had 3 working O boats back then that carried MK48s that would have seriously put a crimper in what escort forces with Sm1 that the Spanish could deploy not to mention posing a credible risk to the Principe de Asturias . Although we still had a steamers in the navy that I still feel without extensive mods would have been of questional combat utility we know these waters. Our CF18s would have the benefit of locale while the Spanish would have no guarantee that the Portuguese would allow them to refuel at the Azores. In the long run, a shooting battle would have been costly but in the end I think it would have been the Spanish that would have been the ones that would have lost.

 

[Cloud Cover]

11 Spanish ships carried the SM-1 in 1995, according to Janes Fighting Ships, 1996 Military Edition. The Spanish surface fleet had a total of 17 vessels carrying Harpoon  missiles, and every one of those ships carried a SAM capability of either the SM-1 or the Aspide. There were also a number of patrol vessels available, such as the Serviola class, but they were of little military consequence.

In addition, the entire Galerna class of submarines [4] was operational and fully worked up at the time. The sub, which is capable of being refuelled underway, carries Exocet sub launched SSM missiles, torpedoes and mines. 

The SPS 52C (3D) and the the SPS 49(V)5 comprised the principle air search radar throughout their fleet. In addition, the Spanish Santa Maria {Perry Class} carried 2 LAMPS III helo's, and significantly, the SQR-19(V)2 tactical towed array sonar. I note that the Spanish navy is also the only operator in the world of the Praire masker hull/noise blade rate suppression system on this class of vessel. As a result, their ability to sense, detect and identify was at least equal to our own in 1995. The Baleares {Knox} class also carried the ASROC launcher. 

Clearly, this is a navy which was outfitted at the time in question for intensive ASW and AAW operations to protect the carrier, with an anti-surface capability which, at worst, matched our own. Arriving on station off the Grand Banks with enough fuel to fight would be the principle limitation of the Spanish Navy in 1995.  Assuming they deployed half of the available numbers of each class of surface combatant and 2 of the subs, they could defend themselves adequately from the Canadian Navy. Without increased numbers, it doesn't appear as though they could launch a decisive attack against the Canadian fleet without their carrier and additional submarines.

       

 

[Slim]

I think that even if we had hit them at the time, they would have responded at a later date with some sort of retaliation. Perhaps in the form of a raid on something of ours whether at sea or perhaps on the Newfoundland itself.

Anyway you look at it, mulching one of their fishing boats would not be the way to do business...If we were really that upset we could have impounded the thing and held the crew for a couple of days before sending them home on Air Canada (minus the boat) with no lasting harm done.

Slim

 

[TCBF]

"... sending them home on Air Canada (minus the boat) with no lasting harm done."

Now there'a a contradiction.  Like saying 'Pulling out all of their teeth, with no harm done.'

Tom

 

[Glorified Ape]

Just an interesting tidbit:

Canada's naval forces have a higher combat value than Spanish naval forces circa 1995, according to James F. Dunnigan (from "How to Make War 3rd Edn). http://jimdunnigan.com/bio.htm#top

Supposedly he's quite the expert, but who knows.

 

[Infanteer]

The problem with Dunnigan's data sets is that they are almost purely quantitative.  Read Biddle's Military Power and you'll see an excellent argument that deflates the importance of Technology (systemic or dyadic) or Preponderance in IR theory.