Food [and a little of everything else] at Stalwart Guardian 04

[Infanteer]

There is the first problem, a dumbed down enemy force.  Truely effective unit training requires force-on-force free play.  One can't judge one's abilities unless he puts them up against a reactive, thinking opponent.

 

[Pikache]

Honesty, nothing annoys me more then the "half-tactical" situations - like when the OC says "Stay in that muddy hole and be quiet, we're tactical" and then goes into the well lit and heated mod tent down the road. Its either go hard or go home.

Like having a coy hide with cammed up hooches, but have a CQ right beside it with white light and full generator going. Odd tactical situation, if you ask me.

Enemy Force, with suitable WES (MILES), should be put in its area, told to attack the enemy, and act accordingly.  If this means attacking admin areas and taking prisoners and supplies in the process, leaving the guys at the front without beans and bullets, then the Enemy Force commander scores points for attacking the cohesion of his opponent through indirect methods.  I think Rounder makes a good point when he states that "Exercises are not just for combat arms."

For FIBUA portion of SG04, the enemy force was RCR FIBUA specialists, at least some of them were. It showed as first coy attack ran into a meat grinder in the middle of the village. Second attack, enemy force tried a counterattack on firebase but got chewed up. It was certainly more refreshing than traditional dumbed down enemy force.

A dedicated, skilled enemy force during exs would improve the training tremendously.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

PPCLI GUY, Next time hire Slim and myself for $100,000 to keep the not requirings out.We have a little experience that might help and a net savings of.....oh wait Slim and I have to eat. ;D

Slim and Bruce - The Mess Hall Enforcers...

 

[PPCLI Guy]

If field kitchens, as part of a logistical support unit is part of our Army, and I'm sure they are, when do they exercise???? Ex SG was apparently the be all to end all exercises, so Mark, where were they?.

Read my previous post - there were not enough cooks or field kitchens to go around.  Those that were there got exercised - in all aspects of their profession, including self-defence. 

Exercises are not just for combat arms

True enough.  Whenever a CBG goes on Ex, they should exerfice their cooks.  Whnever a unit goes on Ex, it should ask for cook support.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

PPCLI guy,

   I thought that the Area Comd forbid anyone to go into Normandy Court, or was this 300K a VIP expenditure. Quite frankly sir I am appalled that this happened. No failure of leadership from my POV.

Yes, the policy was very clear.   No, it was not a VIP expense.   Meals for visitors were budgeted for separately.   This was officers, NCOs and soldiers who would drive onto the base and eat fresh rations.   Most of that expense was incurred during the first couple of days of the exercise (during the setup, prior to the arrival of the main body), when we had hayboxes in the field.

 

[rounder]

Who issued the meal cards????

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Someone should ambush the Field Kitchens and carry off the Wonderbread to sustain future insurgency operations.

Enemy Force, with suitable WES (MILES), should be put in its area, told to attack the enemy, and act accordingly.   If this means attacking admin areas and taking prisoners and supplies in the process, leaving the guys at the front without beans and bullets, then the Enemy Force commander scores points for attacking the cohesion of his opponent through indirect methods.   I think Rounder makes a good point when he states that "Exercises are not just for combat arms."

Infanteer,

In the purest sense, you are right of course.  Having said that, an exercise of the magnitude of SG must be designed to focus on specific Battle Task Standards, for both the Primary and the Secondary Training Audiences, and a ruthless focus must be maintained on those activities and audiences.  By concentrating on doing some things well, you have to accept that some other things wont be done quite as well.  The sync matrix for this exercise was unbelievably complex, and I literally could not afford to have any disruptions in CSS, even though the coys of the Composite Service Battalion were part of the Primary Training Audience.  And so we had to make some compromises. 

Let's not forget that it is an Exercise, and hence a learning opportunity.  When the Diesel refuelling point was set up in the open, with no cam, and the crew were told by their Coy Comd that they didn't need weapons because CSS was too important to be screwed with, I directed that if the problem wasn't fixed in 24 hrs, the enemy would capture or destroy the refueller.  I could have had it snapped right away, but the impact of the loss of refuelling capability for the Composite Brigade would have been severe, and many soldiers would have been affected. 

You have heard the bitching about having to eat IMPS for 6 days out of 7 - imagine if there was no fuel, or no food.  No one would show up for the next SG - which brings up another compromise that has to be reached when designing an ex for the Reserves - they don't have to come, so you have to make them want to come.  In other threads related to SG, you can see soldiers stating that they would not go on the ex, "cus last year was a dogs breakfast" etc etc.

So, in a perfect world, the level of training of the troops, comds and staffs would be high enough that you could have true force on force, but if those conditions don't exist, then you have to make compromises, or risk failing to achieve even limited training objectives.

Dave

 

[rounder]

When the Diesel refuelling point was set up in the open, with no cam, and the crew were told by their Coy Comd that they didn't need weapons because CSS was too important to be screwed with, I directed that if the problem wasn't fixed in 24 hrs, the enemy would capture or destroy the refueller.

Wow...

PPCLI guy you must go through some frustrating things. I also, as a reservist, often forget that "We don't have to go". But for me that is not an option, except in extreme emergencies. Could diciplinary action be taken against this Coy Comd? Did you advise whoever was responsible for his assessment?

 

[PPCLI Guy]

PPCLI guy you must go through some frustrating things.

:-X

Could diciplinary action be taken against this Coy Comd? Did you advise whoever was responsible for his assessment?

No, and yes.  Some times you have to force the horses head into the water and knee it in the b%%s to get it to drink...

 

[AmmoTech90]

Dave,

While I realize the army is just getting back into the brigade level exercises has any thought been given to having an exercise where the CSS could be targetted to a realistic extent.  Ensuring that CSS troops follow a proper defensive routine is one thing, how about testing it?
Would the cost of having the combat arms troops sitting around because they have no ammo, fuel, recovery, batteries or food and therefore no training going on be too high to reinforce the fact that CSS troops must be able to fight too?
I realize that with the Op tempo being what it is many of the larger exercises are designed to prepare a battle group for deployment and if all arms don't get to train it could have real life consequences.  But had we deployed a battle group to Iraq without the CSS being properly tested (possibly to failure) it could have even worse consequences.
Could CSS troops be trained up to a level where they could survive in an environment such as Iraq within the timelines we are mandated to deploy the MCF?

Doug

 

[rounder]

Would the cost of having the combat arms troops sitting around because they have no ammo, fuel, recovery, batteries or food and therefore no training going on be too high to reinforce the fact that CSS troops must be able to fight too?

Doug,


    Good point, but like the man said we're reservists and you make us sit around with no fuel or food then NO ONE will show up next time. Shitty thing but it's true.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Dave,
While I realize the army is just getting back into the brigade level exercises has any thought been given to having an exercise where the CSS could be targetted to a realistic extent.  Ensuring that CSS troops follow a proper defensive routine is one thing, how about testing it?

Great question.  I have to confess that I approach most training problems from the perspective of  the Combat Arms, and so I have never looked at it that way before.  I know that CSS exercises have a tendency to become "self-licking ice cream cones", because a Svc Bn needs to feel the weight of a Bde on its back in order to be properly exercised at its core competency.  Perhaps a two phased Ex, where the CSS types get put through their tactical paces (with a small dedicated cbt arms OPFOR)  then the "customers" show up and they conduct sustainment ops?

Could CSS troops be trained up to a level where they could survive in an environment such as Iraq within the timelines we are mandated to deploy the MCF?

 

First, the MCF is no more, but I understand what you are getting at.  The answer is "I sure hope so".  We train our NSEs fairly well prior to ops...

Dave

 

[AmmoTech90]

I know that 2 Svc used to do something like this in Wainwright and the surrounding area during their annual Rough Rider ex but without much enemy force.  The exercise was largely viewed as a bit of joke, the most challenging part being a long road move around AB and SK...

I agree that CSS must work under a load to develop its core competencies.  Exercising without a brigade but faced with a good enemy force would be helpful, but might not drive home the effects of loss of CSS to anyone except the themselves.  If the Brigade Commander is watching his combat arms units sitting not even able to spin their wheels I think the point would be driven home much quicker.  It would be costly both in dollars and training time for the combat arms, but might raise awareness of our vulnerbilities.
As you said yourself, and I have observed, most planning is done by combat arms pers whose main desire is improve the sharp end.  This is definately a worthy objective.  However any arguments about the tail wagging the dog or the dog wagging the tail become moot when there tail is amputated.

This should probably go its own topic if the conversation going to carry on...

When did the MCF and Vanguard vanish, is Strategy 2020 gone?  Can I expect to see shiny new brochures and pamphlets in Maple Leaf and floating around the office with a new vision?

 

[Jarnhamar]

Who issued the meal cards?

Meal cards don't get issued.
All someone needs to do is get their food, walk to the cash and say "I'm with excersise whatever" and they ring the total up. Impossible to track people.

 

[Devlin]

Great question.   I have to confess that I approach most training problems from the perspective of   the Combat Arms, and so I have never looked at it that way before.   I know that CSS exercises have a tendency to become "self-licking ice cream cones", because a Svc Bn needs to feel the weight of a Bde on its back in order to be properly exercised at its core competency.   Perhaps a two phased Ex, where the CSS types get put through their tactical paces (with a small dedicated cbt arms OPFOR)   then the "customers" show up and they conduct sustainment ops?


Dave

As a CSS type person please forgive my initial reaction to the "self-licking ice cream cone" metaphor.  I am from a Northern CSS unit that is fortunate to get plenty of opportunity to go play silly bugger in the woods. Sharing an armoury with an infantry unit also aids in this. Part of the problem I observed from a CSS perspective this year was when the larger southern CSS units get into the woods they decide it's time to play "Gravel Tech" no offence to you real infantry types while they have their week in the woods. There were more friggin stand to's (an out of date tactic by the way) at the CSS area than you could shake a stick at.

On the food and feading perspective the combined efforts of the SVC BN's delivered enough IMP's during this EX to feed one man 3 meals a day for 28 years. So yes were busy people figuring out DP's, Road Moves, and RRR (Repair Recovery Requests) would we welcome the chance to play silly bugger and get attacked not a problem and bring it on.

As far as being put through our tactical paces we do this but in a slightly different way than the Combat Arms types would think of. Some examples, Black out driving (yes I know other trades do it - but not as well as we do  8)), Night-time DP's, etc...

No it's not the same thing at all, but what both sides (The Combat Arms and The Support Trades) need to understand is that we need each other to do our jobs effectively. It's hard for most reserve infantry units to understand the value of a SVC BN because the reserve infantry unit is typically doing a Friday night, Saturday and Sunday training event where they are self-sufficient for those three days. Most don't get to interact with the SVC BN's until a major EX like SG04.

 

[Infanteer]

There were more friggin stand to's (an out of date tactic by the way)

Are you sure about?

 

[rounder]

Ghost 778,

    The Normandy Mess staff should have been advised of the Comd's policy, don't you think?

 

[rounder]

There were more friggin stand to's (an out of date tactic by the way) at the CSS area than you could shake a stick at.

Are you kidding!! Obviously you've never been a Pl 2i/c (That's a platoon second in command) in case you don't get it. Stand to is a NOT out dated, it is a tool used to test readiness by coy / pl leadership. Buddy, thanks for your comments but that was a loaded thing to say, and if your mind hasn't changed then stick to DP's and resups.

Come on man!!

 

[Jarnhamar]

Rounder, I honestly don't think they care. It's not them who are going to pay for it, their making money so it's no sweat off their back.

Maybe the mess could find a way to enforce the policy more but I don't see how. Theres way too many people going in and out of the mess for them to keep track of who's who. I don't see a way (for the mess) to tell if a reservist is entitled to a meal or if they are trying to sneak a free one in.  
They could issue meal cards to all those who are entitled to meals but I think that would be a nightmare. You have guys showing up for advanced party then moving into one of the companies, certain people who are supposed to show up but at the last minute cancel and someone else takes their place. Someone gets injured and has to spent 2 days eating mess food while on bed rest or something.  
I think it would be next to impossible to keep everyones name on some kind of roll simply because in the reserves a lot of it is shoot from the hip and whoever shows up shows up.

In the end i can see them simply saying "It's your job to police and account for your troops actions, not ours".

It's hard for most reserve infantry units to understand the value of a SVC BN because the reserve infantry unit is typically doing a Friday night, Saturday and Sunday training event where they are self-sufficient for those three days. Most don't get to interact with the SVC BN's until a major EX like SG04.[/quote I think thats very true. On week-end ex's the infantry companies usually support themselves and don't see the bigger picture when it comes to service and support.

I've found that 80% of the time the service guys actually want to get in there and do the infantry training. They want to try out the jungle lanes, go on a patrol, fire big weapons and get dirty. They want the good trainingjust as much as the infantry does. It's fun stuff. I've found when a service guy gets attached to us and we do something like fibua, a patrol, get ambushed or whatever their morale is through the roof. "Fuck i love this!"
I think the problem (and I've seen it a few times) is that when they express an interest to do this their command says no.   "Your here to fix broken weapons or your hear to resupply the companies, it's not your job to do what their doing".    
It does make sense too. These guys are here to do a specific job. It may not be as "fun" as other jobs but it needs to be done. They brigade can't really afford for them to all stop supporting the combat arms and do their own thing.

I think with some hard work and and luck, we could find a way to slide these guys (a little bit at a time) into positions where they can brush up on their soldier skills. Here and there they can be attached to the infantry or armored and get some exposure to war fighting training while their unit remains functioning, supporting the brigade and doing it's job.

 

[Devlin]

Perhaps I could have been more clear they (Command Staff) had the CSS guys doing the traditional and predictable stand to's at first and last light. Which for anyone in the area made for some pretty easy targets. My bad for not being more clear about what specifically was out of date.