Forces struggling to recruit...

[kincanucks]

There have been some changes to reduce the number of Pre-Secs currently being processed.  It may be, I repeat may be, possible for waivers to be given for people coming from one of the original NATO countries (those from the USA still require a FBI check), people coming to Canada at <16 years old and don't have any immediate relatives out of country, people who already hold a a Canadian security clearance from another federal department, and any cases that the CO/Det Comd is worthy of risk management (people who have done missionary work, etc.).  All on-going pre-secs will be reviewed to determine if they can be waived.  Note that this waiver policy will be applied on a case by case basis.

 

[17thRecceSgt]

Security clearances are conducted in conjunction with other agencies.  So we are bound by their red tape.  Also CF recruiting isn't high on the priority list when these agencies are trying to get soldiers cleared for deployments, foreign service members cleared for foreign postings, essential workers cleared for their line of work etc etc.

Also 2 years for a pre-sec is the exception more than it is the norm.

It's sad to say but we need to get smarter about it.  Target countries of concern, facilitate people from traditional allied countries.

Now they say there are no stupid questions but this could be one...wouldn't soldiers already be cleared?  Maybe I am misreading this point...you mean, updating to Lev II or what-have-you?

 

[17thRecceSgt]

I just heard today that YRAP is expanding in NS to 2 platoons of instructors...heard it from the soon to be Sgt-Maj there.
I think that little camp is gonna be busy.

 

[pbi]

Now they say there are no stupid questions but this could be one...wouldn't soldiers already be cleared?  Maybe I am misreading this point...you mean, updating to Lev II or what-have-you?

Not necesarily. The original clearance may not have been adequate for the new security level the person requires (ie going to Top Secret), or the clearance may have lapsed after a time period. Unfortunately, experience has shown us that soldiers who previously passed a clearance can later on get involved with criminal activities or other things that risk their clearance.

Cheers

 

[17thRecceSgt]

PBI,

roger that, it was what I thought was meant, updating from ERC to Lev II or whatever the case is.  I  had that happen with one of my Cpl's, requirement for Lev II and some bad stuff came out of it.

Mud

 

[navymich]

Not necesarily. The original clearance may not have been adequate for the new security level the person requires (ie going to Top Secret), or the clearance may have lapsed after a time period. Unfortunately, experience has shown us that soldiers who previously passed a clearance can later on get involved with criminal activities or other things that risk their clearance.

I know there are certain "special" clearances out there that are only in place while you are in a certain job or position, but I have always been under the impression that your regular clearance cannot lapse.  Yes, you require an update (every 10 years for Conf and Secret, every 5 for Top Secret), but unless you have done something to warrant it, you cannot lose your clearance as soon as that time period has passed.

 

[Jarnhamar]

My opinion on why the CFis having recruiting problems.

1)  Reservists getting jerked around when trying to join the regular force.  There are a LOT of reservists anxious to join the regular force.  Some of them may be able to component transfer right into the regs, others can skip basic training.  Seems like a good way to save money time and man power.  I don't know how many reservists I know are waiting on paperwork and crap to transfer to the regular force.  I've been waiting over 2 years.

2) Recruiting ads.  Their for pussies, simply as that. Have you seen the American ads?  You watch them and you get excited. They look pretty bad ass with soldiers doing some seriously cool shit with good music pumping in the backround.  Then you see the CF ads. They look like some highschool debate team ad.  Strong, proud!  Sorry, that's not cutting it.  Hard to be proud of something that comes across as wishy washey, recruiting commercials and ads seem pretty fake.

3) Support for combat arms.  I'd say 99% of the people I've spoke with, many recruiters included, tried to talk me out of going combat arms. Sure I appreciate that they want me to get a trade and schooling and such but what happens when we have NO compat arms? All we have are clerks and computer guys.  People need to realise that combat arms is an important area of the Canadian Forces and should stop being looked at like the red headed stop child.

4) Tougher recruiting.  New recruits can't polish their boots but they sure as hell know the harassment policy inside and out and know exactly when they can bend that sucker to their will and get off with being idiots.  How many of us have a story about some new guy or girl milking the harassment policy. Those jerks should be punted.  Same with people who join the military injured.  Sure, props to you for wanting to serve the country but your not very much good when you join the army needing special boots, allergic to the sun, metal and grass and you need this this and that special diets and personal admin.  Lets stop recruiting citizens who ask what their country can do for them.

 

[17thRecceSgt]

My opinion on why the CFis having recruiting problems.

1)  Reservists getting jerked around when trying to join the regular force.  There are a LOT of reservists anxious to join the regular force.  Some of them may be able to component transfer right into the regs, others can skip basic training.  Seems like a good way to save money time and man power.   I don't know how many reservists I know are waiting on paperwork and crap to transfer to the regular force.  I've been waiting over 2 years.

4) Tougher recruiting.  New recruits can't polish their boots but they sure as hell know the harassment policy inside and out and know exactly when they can bend that sucker to their will and get off with being idiots.  How many of us have a story about some new guy or girl milking the harassment policy. Those jerks should be punted.  Same with people who join the military injured.   Sure, props to you for wanting to serve the country but your not very much good when you join the army needing special boots, allergic to the sun, metal and grass and you need this this and that special diets and personal admin.  Lets stop recruiting citizens who ask what their country can do for them.

I am not sure why you would be over 2 years.  I am CTing as well, and it was one month total from 1st visit to CFRC and to my CFAT/Medical/interview (last week).  2 of those weeks was putting the paperwork together (college transcripts, etc) and then I was in 2 weeks after my completed application went in.  My MCpl is also CTing, same trade.  He went in a day after me to hand in his completed application and he ASLO did his CFAt/med/interview, one day after me.  So, I guess, if nothing else, we can say "job well done" to the folks at CFRC Halifax.  I know the recruiter who is handling CTs, he processes about 10 a week from Halifax.  I don't think it is safe to say "across the board CTs are messed up".  What is taking 2 years for you?  Does your CoC support your CT?  I just can't see what would take 2 years.  There is a missing piece to that puzzle.

You just said you are CTing.  Now you are saying new recruits can't polish their boots?  Are you talking about recruits from CFLRS?  Or are you talking about PRes recruits that you Bde is training.  The point I am trying to make is, who are you directing the "faulty instruction" of the recruits at?  I know in my unit, we put our OWN people thru BMQ/GMT/FELT, whatever you want to call it.  So...for my unit (PEIR), if we have "crappy recruits", we have to look in the mirror to point the finger at the training cadre to messed up...if that was the case.

If the only thing with a potential recruit is they need special boots, but aside from that they will make a SUPER pilot/gunner/infanteer/AVS Tech/Bosun or whatever trade, I say sign they up, and get them some friggin' boots.

I do agree with SOME of what you said in Para 4, there is potentially some people getting in that don't meet the cut for the CF, but, hey, I wear special boots.  Should I be put to pasture because of fallen arches from the kickass issued black slippers I wore for 14 years??

Mud

 

[pbi]

Reservists getting jerked around when trying to join the regular force.

Agree. This is a bit better than it was, but it still seems to be a painfully slow system. Since the person is already in the CF, it should be faster than bringing somebody in off the street. Going the other way (Reg to Res) can be pain in the a** too;

Recruiting ads.  Their for pussies, simply as that.

IMHO it depends. In past few years I have seen two very good ads: one was for Navy, the other more Army oriented. In the last while I haven 't seen any advertising, period. (But then maybe I don't get out enough). I think we are a hell of a lot better than we were in the days of the geek coming down the gangway of the destroyer with a briefcase.

Support for combat arms.  I'd say 99% of the people I've spoke with, many recruiters included, tried to talk me out of going combat arms

Based on comments I have heard from Comd CFRG, this is probably because Cbt Arms recruiting is doing very well: this is not where the shortages are. Inf, in particular, is doing very well. IMHO our biggest limiting factor in the CF is not the availability of Cbt Arms: it is the fact that there are so few deployable CSS folks left that we have had to do radical surgery in the Army to keep our support functions going. No support: no operations-period. And, by the way, as an Inf soldier myself, I do not want folks joining the Inf who don't have at least a complete high school diploma, which these days is the bare minimum standard of public education;

Tougher recruiting.  New recruits can't polish their boots but they sure as hell know the harassment policy inside and out and know exactly when they can bend that sucker to their will and get off with being idiots.

I think we should be careful here. A bunch of guys running around in the deserts of Afghanistan right now only joined the Army in the last two-three of years. By all accounts I have heard, they are doing pretty well;

Same with people who join the military injured.  

Are there really all that many of these? My experience dealing with CFRG during the period 2002-2005, covering Reserve recruiting in MB, MAN and NWONT (via our supporting CFRC and dets) was just the opposite. The medical restrictions were so tight that recruits were rejected for having old football injuries (healed years before), acne, etc. We fought a number of cases that we believed were too restrictive: without any doubt it was this medical aspect that was the most frustrating to deal with. Given the Fed Govt (ie: Treasury Board) reluctance to take on any liability in the pension area, I would be very surprised to see that we are actually recruiting many people with any significant medical problems. As far as I know, we are even cracking down on the accomdation policy that allowed people to remain in service with low medical categories.

Cheers.

 

[Kirkhill]

Based on comments I have heard from Comd CFRG, this is probably because Cbt Arms recruiting is doing very well: this is not where the shortages are. Inf, in particular, is doing very well. IMHO our biggest limiting factor in the CF is not the availability of Cbt Arms: it is the fact that there are so few deployable CSS folks left that we have had to do radical surgery in the Army to keep our support functions going. No support: no operations-period. And, by the way, as an Inf soldier myself, I do not want folks joining the Inf who don't have at least a complete high school diploma, which these days is the bare minimum standard of public education;

How successful is internal recruiting?  ie.  Once troops have joined as infanteers and done a tour in Afghanistan how many release, go to reserves, continue as reg inf or remuster as engineers, medics, gunners etc?

As I understand the old Regimental system everyone came in as a rifleman and then as they progressed in service they moved up in rank but they also moved "to the rear" as support numbers, progressing through support to service support.  Is this being successfully applied across the CF?

Is there any mileage to be gained out of taking advantage of all of these youngsters that join to go on patrol but then discover the realities of soldiering - the boredom and action thing, but more importantly discover the value of all of the support trades?  If there is a surplus of 031/011 candidates is it feasible to bring them in in any case and then recruit them to the trades after they're in?

I am not in favour of bait and switch, but if the Regiments were filled and the prospect was of two or three years regimental duties or a deployment in 3 months as a truck driver would there be takers?


More random thoughts.

Cheers

 

[Jarnhamar]

Hey ya mud recce man,

What is taking 2 years for you?

A clerk at a unit I was with dropped the ball big time. Took almost a year for my paperwork to be sorted out and leave the regiment I was with.  When I transfered they sent it within a week.  I then had a mix up with my medical which could have easily shit canned me but an amazing officer from NDMC went out of his way to take care of me.  They had an offer for me in January but no one told me so I signed a year long class C contract and can't back out now.  I know it can be chalked up to a case of good luck or bad luck, I just feel more importance could be placed on CTs from reserve units.  (I can't complain about my current one however, it is indeed a case of luck when CTing)

Now you are saying new recruits can't polish their boots?

Too literal.  I simply meant brand new recruits with zero time in the military.  "Don't know how to polish their boots yet"would have been better wording on my part for sure.

"crappy recruits", we have to look in the mirror to point the finger at the training cadre to messed up...if that was the case.

The feeling I get from many instructors is that they CAN'T fail students who by all rights should fail.

I do agree with SOME of what you said in Para 4, there is potentially some people getting in that don't meet the cut for the CF, but, hey, I wear special boots.  Should I be put to pasture because of fallen arches from the kickass issued black slippers I wore for 14 years??

Rhetorical question
Of course you shouldn't. key phrase is you wearing those slippers for 14 years.  Big difference between someone like yourself and some guy off the street who knows he can work the system to get himself $400 high speed boots at the militarises expense.
We argued this not too long ago actually, stemming from a military mother practically demanding her recruit son be given a chit for the CF to pay for vibram soles or boots or whatever.

PBI,

The medical restrictions were so tight that recruits were rejected for having old football injuries (healed years before),

That could very well be the case and I'm basing my opinion off out dated info.

I think we should be careful here. A bunch of guys running around in the deserts of Afghanistan right now only joined the Army in the last two-three of years. By all accounts I have heard, they are doing pretty well

Oh for sure, I don't disagree.  My argument was that now it seems like recruits know how to milk the system and all the ins and outs of harassment policies and what they can get away with before they know how to soldier.  I could be out in left field here, just feels like we could use a more mission before self mentality instilled in these guys and girls sooner.

 

[paracowboy]

My argument was that now it seems like recruits know how to milk the system and all the ins and outs of harassment policies and what they can get away with before they know how to soldier.  I could be out in left field here, just feels like we could use a more mission before self mentality instilled in these guys and girls sooner.

"I could be out in left field here" you are not. There is a systemic problem with it.

 

[17thRecceSgt]

"I could be out in left field here" you are not. There is a systemic problem with it.

Well, had no idea it was that bad.  I remember discussing this stuff on a thread about "St Jean vs. Cornwallis" and I got the impression that it WASN'T a problem.

Is it at the CFLRS level?  Surely not the Battle Schools?  Or just...the "new and not-improved" CF mentality (we should all not offend anyone, hug trees yadda yadda)

 

[Long in the tooth]

"A clerk at a unit I was with dropped the ball big time."

Of course it would have nothing to do with the chain of command, changing circumstances, or the fact that reserve admin takes 30 times as long to get done as reg f admin?  I could get a reccomendation from the CSM, approval from the Adj and walk paper over to 1 CMBG HQ in one day... like that's ever gonna happen in the RSS world.

 

[paracowboy]

Well, had no idea it was that bad.  I remember discussing this stuff on a thread about "St Jean vs. Cornwallis" and I got the impression that it WASN'T a problem.

Is it at the CFLRS level?  Surely not the Battle Schools?  Or just...the "new and not-improved" CF mentality (we should all not offend anyone, hug trees yadda yadda)

I don't know where it starts, but the end-product is troops that know exactly what to do in order to get off an Exercise, but don't know how to operate a C6. In the past 3 years, I've had troops complete their entire BE without ever once getting in the weeds for more than 24 hours. No exaggeration.

 

[17thRecceSgt]

Holy shite.  Not on at all.  I had no idea things were like that (my head has been inside the HQ far too long).

You would think that those types get weeded out at Battle School.

The C6 is an excellent weapon, you would think they would WANT the thing, not avoid it.

Maybe we should give them those electric throat collars, and at the first sign of weakness...ZAP!  (just kidding of course...sort of)

 

[paracowboy]

You would think that those types get weeded out at Battle School.

nope. We had one guy who had been committed to an asylum (TWICE) that we not only could not fail from his Battle School course, but couldn't get rid of from BN, until his BE was done.

 

[17thRecceSgt]

hmmmm

back to that electric throat collar idea...

 

[paracowboy]

kids struggle and wait years to get in and serve their country, and junk can't be ditched. What happened?

 

[George Wallace]

What happened?

Charter of Human Rights.  SHARP Training.  Differential Training.  Training in what the Harassment Policy is in detail.  Barrackroom Lawyers.  Too many Redress of Grievances by the 'weak' who had Failed, but the Staff hadn't documented well enough.  Soft Commanders at the Schools who allowed the Students yet another chance, against the advice and documented Shortcomings of the Crse Instructors and Crse Officers.  What Happened?  We became the Chretien "Softer, Kinder, Gentler Army" where everyone has the 'Right' to join and serve.