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Foreign Workers: Political/Labour effects (split from 2024 UK rioting thread)

Edward Campbell said:
Who should determine the value or worth of a job?
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Likely not the large business/interests that have influence over the people who make decisions about how much cheap labour is allowed to be imported form the developing world.

Unless you want your kid/grandkids living 6 or more in a two bedroom apartment, like TFWs will do. Making minimum wage working multiple 20 hour a week jobs, so the businesses don't have any obligations to the employee.
 
Edward Campbell said:
Who should determine the value or worth of a job?
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The employer.

Bringing in more unskilled labour, or people whose higher skills aren't recognized and are forced to work at lower skill levels, is just a way of depressing the earning potential of jobs at lower skill levels. Economically it makes sense; socially it does not.
 
Edward Campbell said:
Who should determine the value or worth of a job?
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Jointly, it is the employer and the employed

Unless the government puts their finger on the scales, eventually employers will pay enough/change the job conditions/employ technology to either attract workers or do away with the workers either in part or altogether.

The employed decide, based on a number of factors, whether it is worth working and for how long.

Some jobs are just low skilled, entry level jobs. They are not career fields. Yet, they are vital for teen-agers to get experience in the job market.

You take all of those away and give them to TFWs, you create two problems: teen-agers can’t get their first job and are maybe locked out of the job market. You also have now imported an under-class that is literally locked to their employer. It suppresses wages and it kills innovation. And it creates resentment, all around.
 
SeaKingTacco said:
Jointly, it is the employer and the employed

Unless the government puts their finger on the scales, eventually employers will pay enough/change the job conditions/employ technology to either attract workers or do away with the workers either in part or altogether.

The employed decide, based on a number of factors, whether it is worth working and for how long.

Some jobs are just low skilled, entry level jobs. They are not career fields. Yet, they are vital for teen-agers to get experience in the job market.

You take all of those away and give them to TFWs, you create two problems: teen-agers can’t get their first job and are maybe locked out of the job market. You also have now imported an under-class that is literally locked to their employer. It suppresses wages and it kills innovation. And it creates resentment, all around.
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you might also add that you import another whole series of court cases when the TFW files to stay in Canada, bumps a legitimate immigrant who has followed the rules.
SeaKing hit it right on: eventually employers will pay enough or they won't get workers. Even with skilled trades employers generally won't pay any more than they absolutely must. Consider trucking. Before 2020 a freight company could start drivers at 15 to 18 an hour. Coincidental with covid that figure took a 20% jump right off the bat and just about every rig sported a job available sign many offering bonuses and free training.
 
Brad Sallows said:
The employer.

Bringing in more unskilled labour, or people whose higher skills aren't recognized and are forced to work at lower skill levels, is just a way of depressing the earning potential of jobs at lower skill levels. Economically it makes sense; socially it does not.
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The employer and the employee. It is a contract that engages both. The employer makes the offer if the employee is considered suitable. The employee accepts the offer if the employer is considered suitable. The wage is the variable.

Edit - beaten to it by @SeaKingTacco
 
Kirkhill said:
The employer and the employee. It is a contract that engages both. The employer makes the offer if the employee is considered suitable. The employee accepts the offer if the employer is considered suitable. The wage is the variable.

Edit - beaten to it by @SeaKingTacco
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I would argue that money, while important, is not the only factor. Working conditions certainly play a part.
 
SeaKingTacco said:
I would argue that money, while important, is not the only factor. Working conditions certainly play a part.
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A key element would surely have to be what does it take to break the contract and walk away from the job. Or are you bound to the employer?
 
Kirkhill said:
A key element would surely have to be what does it take to break the contract and walk away from the job. Or are you bound to the employer?
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I think that is one of the key criticisms of the TFW program in Canada. For once, the UN may actually be correct in it’s critique that Canada is running a virtual slavery program…
 
SeaKingTacco said:
I would argue that money, while important, is not the only factor. Working conditions certainly play a part.
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I'd say that working conditions matter almost as much as wages in most cases.

I've mentioned it before, but before my brother joined the CAF he worked for a local fish processor. He was paid a couple of dollars over minimum wage, and worked 60-80 hours a week without OT, because he was a "seasonal worker". The workers in the plant worked 9-10 months of the year like that, as each "season" would have a week or two of lay-off time between them. After a while the plant couldn't get locals to work there, so they started bringing in TFWs from China, Mexico and Russia. The TFWs come up for a few months, work like dogs for the time they are in Canada, and send almost every penny home to their families.

If the plant had offered reasonable working hours, and proper compensation for working long hours when required, they would still have lots of locals working there.

That's just the story from one industry in small town PEI. I'm sure there are many similar stories all over the country, where employers treated the locals poorly, then cried to the government that nobody wanted to work.
 
Furniture said:
I'd say that working conditions matter almost as much as wages in most cases.

I've mentioned it before, but before my brother joined the CAF he worked for a local fish processor. He was paid a couple of dollars over minimum wage, and worked 60-80 hours a week without OT, because he was a "seasonal worker". The workers in the plant worked 9-10 months of the year like that, as each "season" would have a week or two of lay-off time between them. After a while the plant couldn't get locals to work there, so they started bringing in TFWs from China, Mexico and Russia. The TFWs come up for a few months, work like dogs for the time they are in Canada, and send almost every penny home to their families.

If the plant had offered reasonable working hours, and proper compensation for working long hours when required, they would still have lots of locals working there.

That's just the story from one industry in small town PEI. I'm sure there are many similar stories all over the country, where employers treated the locals poorly, then cried to the government that nobody wanted to work.
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I think the roots of that fisheries problem may have been in the "seasonal workers" programme. Processors originally had captive labour sources in the outports and the locals lived off the land as much as they did off the pay. They caught their own food and built their own houses.

When Joey drew down the outports and initiated a modern economy the workers unionized and demanded a decent wage. But the fish didn't co-operate. The Federal government established a moratorium on cod (and seals) and killed the local economy.

The solution was the seasonal workers programme. Funded out of the national Unemployment Insurance programme. Effectively the government and the processors colluded to ration the jobs. 10 weeks labour bought you a year of benefits. 4 adults, including grown children, in a house rotated their 10 week jobs. 40 weeks labour bought them 200 weeks of benefits. The processors got cheap labour.

Soon there was no fish of any kind and they were importing Alaskan fish by rail to Newf and the Maritimes and sticking them into cardboard boxes for sale to the US. The locals were still getting seasonal benefits and the government was buying votes subsidizing jobs that would otherwise have followed the US jobs and gone to China.

Now, it seems, that the Chinese have followed the jobs and taken up Canadian jobs as those Canadians who are not retired have headed to Alberta for jobs in the oil patch. And TFWs are working the oil patch 7-11s.
 
SeaKingTacco said:
I think that is one of the key criticisms of the TFW program in Canada. For once, the UN may actually be correct in it’s critique that Canada is running a virtual slavery program…
Click to expand...
you can walk away, at least in the agricultural end of things but, you cannot seek out another employer. You have to go home
 
SeaKingTacco said:
I think that is one of the key criticisms of the TFW program in Canada. For once, the UN may actually be correct in it’s critique that Canada is running a virtual slavery program…
Click to expand...
And the indentured servants from Britain etc in the late 1800s early 1900s -
 
Kirkhill said:
I think the roots of that fisheries problem may have been in the "seasonal workers" programme. Processors originally had captive labour sources in the outports and the locals lived off the land as much as they did off the pay. They caught their own food and built their own houses.

When Joey drew down the outports and initiated a modern economy the workers unionized and demanded a decent wage. But the fish didn't co-operate. The Federal government established a moratorium on cod (and seals) and killed the local economy.

The solution was the seasonal workers programme. Funded out of the national Unemployment Insurance programme. Effectively the government and the processors colluded to ration the jobs. 10 weeks labour bought you a year of benefits. 4 adults, including grown children, in a house rotated their 10 week jobs. 40 weeks labour bought them 200 weeks of benefits. The processors got cheap labour.

Soon there was no fish of any kind and they were importing Alaskan fish by rail to Newf and the Maritimes and sticking them into cardboard boxes for sale to the US. The locals were still getting seasonal benefits and the government was buying votes subsidizing jobs that would otherwise have followed the US jobs and gone to China.

Now, it seems, that the Chinese have followed the jobs and taken up Canadian jobs as those Canadians who are not retired have headed to Alberta for jobs in the oil patch. And TFWs are working the oil patch 7-11s.
Click to expand...
I was going to buy some frozen fillets that other day, haddock or sole, I can't remember, marketed by Highliner Foods - a venerable Canadian company, until I saw Product of China on the box.
 
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