Foreign Workers: Political/Labour effects (split from 2024 UK rioting thread)

[RangerRay]

There is some of that...look at how many "ads" are in small print but don't have details...run it for a couple of weeks and all of a sudden nobody applied so TFW

Then there are the games some larger operations are running....hire for one -> TFW -> move to a second location due to X reason.

I understand the need to get specialized knowledge. I don't see the need for waitresses, cashiers, and line cooks especially when you're laying off locals or not hiring them. And frankly...if a person can't live on the wage you're paying - based upon the single job you're offering (not working 3x jobs) - then maybe it's time to raise wages and/or costs instead of depressing your local economy and then wondering why nobody is going to your restaurant/business.

I have a hard time seeing an employer being altruistic and offer higher wages when they can easily get cheap labour via the TFW program. Until that program is scrapped or scaled back so that employers can only access it if they can show they can’t find the skilled labour within the country, employers will continue to use a program that intervenes in the labour market.

It’s a fallacy that business people are free-enterprisers. Most, if not all, will welcome state intervention if it benefits them, whether it’s by preventing competition, giving them access to cheap labour or handing out taxpayer lucre for keeping the lights on.

 

[lenaitch]

As Canadians are aging out of the workforce at an increasingly alarming rate, the main issue is a declining population of employable 'locals'. There are not enough people to do the work, and there won't be a sudden emergence of AI at a rate that will take up the slack, hence the need for immigrants, and we're lucky to have them ...

Couple that with the sea of lost souls cluttering downtowns across the land who's brains (and employability) are fried by opioids. Anecdotally, I don't see a lot of visible minorities in those crowds.

 

[Brad Sallows]

It’s a fallacy that business people are free-enterprisers. Most, if not all, will welcome state intervention if it benefits them, whether it’s by preventing competition, giving them access to cheap labour or handing out taxpayer lucre for keeping the lights on.

They are free-enterprisers, but part of free enterprise is exploiting legitimate advantages. If you want to see whether business people are free-enterprisers, end subsidies and policies which distort plain ordinary market functioning. I expect most businesses will adapt and remain, not disappear.

 

[childs56]

Just curious but what is a "swamper?"

Essentially an apprentice driver/picker operator.
They get to learn how to properly chain a truck up. Learn to use rigging for securing loads/ lifting loads.
Cleans maintains the equipment as required.
Scratches the commander driver behind his ears so he doesn't have to.
Move boards cribbing around as required on site.

All in all a great way to start out in the trucking world. Gets to learn how all the trucks and trailers work, how to secure/lift loads etc prior to becoming a driver/operator themselves.

Should be decent money but long hours and erratic ones at best.

 

[CBH99]

Add tipping culture to that too.

Yeah, tips means that you could make a ton more money than you would normally get. It also means that businesses can underpay claiming that tips will make up the difference.

The problem is what happens if a night is super slow and you end up losing money due to lack of tips?

Can employers pay less than minimum wage if there is a reasonable expectation that tips will make up the difference? (Re waitress)

(In my mind, minimum wage means minimum wage. But the world seems to be changing faster than my brain cab keep up with sometimes, so I figured it better to ask than assume)

 

[CBH99]

Canada can't rely on a steady stream of folks escaping North Dakota to provide underground labour on farms. The TFW program helps farms suppress labour costs and avoid developing mechanical solutions. Its expansion to suppress wages in urban areas as well is something government may make statements about, but will not likely address.

In the case of needing to find labour for jobs on farms where advertising just isn't attracting the kind of labour the industry requires, the TFW program makes sense.

But expanding the TFW program to such an extent that Canadian citizens (especially youth) can't get hired for legitimate jobs because the TFW program is being exploited & abused?

Government would be well advised to address the issue. It's a problem they created, and is yet one more nail in the coffin we're watching our economy die in.

(If Tim Hortons honestly can't find a local Canadian that is capable of working a bloody cash register, then we have bigger problems...)



Personally, I think Canadians are desperate enough that if the TFW program magically disappeared tomorrow, those positions would be filled by Canadian citizens in fairly short order.

Canadians don't have the luxury of a Harper-era economy to be snobbish about employment anymore.

Jobs pay money & money pays for food - for a country that's experiencing record high numbers of people relying on food banks, I'm thinking we could cut back on the approx 2.6 million TFW's we have here.

(That apparently aren't tracked very closely when looking at our immigration numbers, since they aren't expected to stay...)

 

[foresterab]

Can employers pay less than minimum wage if there is a reasonable expectation that tips will make up the difference? (Re waitress)

(In my mind, minimum wage means minimum wage. But the world seems to be changing faster than my brain cab keep up with sometimes, so I figured it better to ask than assume)

Legally...no. But if you are the employer...that controls the employment status of the individual and their working visa in Canada....it's very easy to tell them to stay late/early or not clock in all the hours or cut benefits that a Canadian would fight them on. When you're given no choice on which shifts/hours day length you're going to work and depending on the contract wording was that daily hours/average hours/weekly total?

So many ways to play games with the system some of which are well known. Don't know how many companies I know that used to start all the crews in BC until they hit the threshold for OT...then flip them to Alberta for another couple of days of regular wages before hitting the higher Alberta threshold for OT. Just one example that happens with non-minimum wage jobs.

 

[dapaterson]

Can employers pay less than minimum wage if there is a reasonable expectation that tips will make up the difference? (Re waitress)

(In my mind, minimum wage means minimum wage. But the world seems to be changing faster than my brain cab keep up with sometimes, so I figured it better to ask than assume)

As far as I know, most provinces have abolished lower minimum wages for tipped jobs. It's still a thing in large parts of the US, where under $3 an hour for servers is common.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

My daughter has dropped off resumes on a weekly basis for months. No returns on any part time work for a high school student. Which is fine. I want her concentrating on her boxing but it’s mildly concerning.

Same here, she finally got a job offer, but by that time had signed up for more summer school curses.

 

[The Bread Guy]

TONS of detailed discussion/pulling apart of this issue apart from whazzup in the UK, so feel free to masticate a bit more on it here.

Milnet.ca Staff

 

[foresterab]

Food And Beverage Server in Canada | Wages - Job Bank

People working as a food and beverage server in Canada usually earn between $$14.00/hour and $$26.00/hour. Whether you want to negotiate a salary, plan your career or track employment trends, you should know how much workers earn in your region. Visit Job Bank to learn more about prevailing...

www.jobbank.gc.ca

Interesting take on minimum wage, median wage and top wage advertised for the food server industry and broken down by province. Hint...almost all of them are minimum wage.

Comparison then to the "Cost of living wage". Rates

Difference between the two only looking at major centers:

Metro Vancouver - Median wage offered $18/hr. Living wage - $25.68. 70% of a living wage.
Calgary - Median wage offered $17/hr. Living wage - $23.70. 72% of living wage
Edmonton - Median wage offered $17/hr. Living wage - $22.25. 76% of living wage.
Regina - median wage -$14/hr. Living wage $17.80. 79% of living wage
Winnipeg - median wage $15.30/hr. Living wage $19.21. 80% of living wage
Ottawa - median wage $16.55/hr. Living wage $21.95. 75% of living wage
GTA - median wage $16.55/hr. living wage $25.05. 66% of living wage
Frediction - median wage $15.30 (2023). Living wage $23.45 (2022 value). 65% difference
Halifax - median wage $15.20. living wage $26.50. 57% difference.

While this is a very incomplete data set...with no checking for accuracy it highlights the differences in wages that would need to be offered for someone to work full time in this industry. The other part it highlights is where the cost of living has skyrocketed and wages have not kept pace (i.e. Maritimes)

So hypothetically speaking....what would happen if you had to pay a 20%? premium to the LIVING WAGE vs. minimum wage for employment of TFW? When I look at that sort of hourly wage now you're starting to cross into skilled employees and/or longer term employees needed.

 

[KJK]

So many people think that TFW are the greatest thing that ever happened to business but in my experience they are far from it. Back circa 2010 2 of my friends had businesses that had TFW and in both cases after a year or so they both sent them all home because they were far more trouble than they were worth.

In 1 case my friend bought a DQ in a small AB city that came with mostly Filipina women TFW. His experience was far less than spectacular and he asked me to help him straighten things out since he was working a camp job at the time which prevented him from being at the restaurant as much as he would have liked. Problems included but not limited to:

1 - the TFWs didn't like it when he would hire someone local and they would create a hostile work environment for any local person until they quit.
2 - they were always trying to get him to hire more of their family members and bring them to Canada
3 - inspite of being told not to many times, at the end of the day if there wasn't a local employee present they would cook up around a hundred dollars worth of food and take it home with them. He had been wondering why some days the profits were way down compared to others. We installed cameras one evening after they had left and had the answers pretty quickly.
4 - one of the ladies was extremely attractive and inspite of her being married, with a husband in the Philippines, she was constantly hitting on my friend who is happily married and telling him she would make a much better wife if he would only help her immigrate.
5 - inspite of the conditions of visa stating they could only work at this DQ, after being told for the umptheenth time not to steal food at the end of shift they all went over to the local Timmies and applied there. It paid $0.75/hr more than DQ. Unfortunately for them the owner of the Timmies was a friend and we knew about it almost as soon as their resumes hit the desk.

At this point my friend had interviewed and hired a couple of local teens but they hadn't started yet. He asked my what I thought and I said "plane tickets for all of them, if we temporarily reduce hrs until the new people are up to speed we should be fine." It worked and that was the end of his TFW experience.

I was less involved in the other business. It was an independent truck and trailer repair shop. I did hear quite a few things about his experiences trying to bring in mechanics and welders from former soviet union countries and it was pretty crazy. Mostly people so desperate they would lie about everything. He had the advantage of speaking Russian nearly fluently so he could communicate with them in their own language and it still turned out to be a disaster.

It sure isn't sunshine and roses if you are a small business owner.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Meanwhile, in Ontario...

Call to increase northern Ontario’s share of skilled immigration​

Municipalities in northern Ontario are being asked to support an effort to increase the north’s share of skilled immigration to 3,000 people a year.

Northern Ontario Chambers of Commerce, along with municipal economic development representatives and other groups, approved an initiative late last month to lobby the province to increase the region’s share under the Ontario Immigrant Nominee Program(opens in a new tab).

Currently, northern Ontario receives between 100-200 people each year under the program, with 90 per cent of all immigration centred in the Toronto area.

Ontario has 21,500 total spots in the program this year.

“We hear almost daily from some of the large and even smaller employers in the area that there are significant labour market demands and that immigration is definitely one of the solutions that they’re turning towards,” Timmins Mayor Michelle Boileau said at Tuesday’s council meeting where the issue was discussed.

Coun. Bill Gvozdanovic said while he supported the idea, he was concerned about the impact on an already tight housing market.

“The only issue I see with that is our vacancy rate is at a dangerous level and that is going to be an issue,” Gvozdanovic said.

“Where are people going to live?”

But Charles Cirtwill, head of the Northern Policy Institute, said one of the reasons the province can’t build homes more quickly is the lack of skilled labour.

“Part of the reason that we have a housing shortage is because we haven't trained enough people to build houses,” Cirtwill said.

“It's going to take some time to … get the people into those programs get them through and graduate. So a very quick short-term solution is to find those people with pre-existing skills and bring them, as we’ve done it hundreds of times in the past.”

The proposed annual immigration target would see Greater Sudbury receive 689 newcomers under the program, Thunder Bay 498, Sault Ste. Marie 310, North Bay 290 and Timmins 166.

Call to increase northern Ontario's share of skilled immigration

Municipalities in northern Ontario are being asked to support an effort to increase the north's share of skilled immigration to 3,000 people a year.

northernontario.ctvnews.ca

 

[The Bread Guy]

Meanwhile, in Ontario...

Call to increase northern Ontario’s share of skilled immigration​

Municipalities in northern Ontario are being asked to support an effort to increase the north’s share of skilled immigration to 3,000 people a year.

Northern Ontario Chambers of Commerce, along with municipal economic development representatives and other groups, approved an initiative late last month to lobby the province to increase the region’s share under the Ontario Immigrant Nominee Program(opens in a new tab).

Currently, northern Ontario receives between 100-200 people each year under the program, with 90 per cent of all immigration centred in the Toronto area.

Ontario has 21,500 total spots in the program this year.

“We hear almost daily from some of the large and even smaller employers in the area that there are significant labour market demands and that immigration is definitely one of the solutions that they’re turning towards,” Timmins Mayor Michelle Boileau said at Tuesday’s council meeting where the issue was discussed.

Coun. Bill Gvozdanovic said while he supported the idea, he was concerned about the impact on an already tight housing market.

“The only issue I see with that is our vacancy rate is at a dangerous level and that is going to be an issue,” Gvozdanovic said.

“Where are people going to live?”

But Charles Cirtwill, head of the Northern Policy Institute, said one of the reasons the province can’t build homes more quickly is the lack of skilled labour.

“Part of the reason that we have a housing shortage is because we haven't trained enough people to build houses,” Cirtwill said.

“It's going to take some time to … get the people into those programs get them through and graduate. So a very quick short-term solution is to find those people with pre-existing skills and bring them, as we’ve done it hundreds of times in the past.”

The proposed annual immigration target would see Greater Sudbury receive 689 newcomers under the program, Thunder Bay 498, Sault Ste. Marie 310, North Bay 290 and Timmins 166.

Call to increase northern Ontario's share of skilled immigration

Municipalities in northern Ontario are being asked to support an effort to increase the north's share of skilled immigration to 3,000 people a year.

northernontario.ctvnews.ca

Like businesses, municipalities gonna shake whatever tree’s out there that could help.

 

[foresterab]

Meanwhile, in Ontario...

Call to increase northern Ontario’s share of skilled immigration​

Municipalities in northern Ontario are being asked to support an effort to increase the north’s share of skilled immigration to 3,000 people a year.

Northern Ontario Chambers of Commerce, along with municipal economic development representatives and other groups, approved an initiative late last month to lobby the province to increase the region’s share under the Ontario Immigrant Nominee Program(opens in a new tab).

Currently, northern Ontario receives between 100-200 people each year under the program, with 90 per cent of all immigration centred in the Toronto area.

Ontario has 21,500 total spots in the program this year.

“We hear almost daily from some of the large and even smaller employers in the area that there are significant labour market demands and that immigration is definitely one of the solutions that they’re turning towards,” Timmins Mayor Michelle Boileau said at Tuesday’s council meeting where the issue was discussed.

Coun. Bill Gvozdanovic said while he supported the idea, he was concerned about the impact on an already tight housing market.

“The only issue I see with that is our vacancy rate is at a dangerous level and that is going to be an issue,” Gvozdanovic said.

“Where are people going to live?”

But Charles Cirtwill, head of the Northern Policy Institute, said one of the reasons the province can’t build homes more quickly is the lack of skilled labour.

“Part of the reason that we have a housing shortage is because we haven't trained enough people to build houses,” Cirtwill said.

“It's going to take some time to … get the people into those programs get them through and graduate. So a very quick short-term solution is to find those people with pre-existing skills and bring them, as we’ve done it hundreds of times in the past.”

The proposed annual immigration target would see Greater Sudbury receive 689 newcomers under the program, Thunder Bay 498, Sault Ste. Marie 310, North Bay 290 and Timmins 166.

Call to increase northern Ontario's share of skilled immigration

Municipalities in northern Ontario are being asked to support an effort to increase the north's share of skilled immigration to 3,000 people a year.

northernontario.ctvnews.ca

Or offer a wage that offsets the location and remoteness. I could go back to work in N. Ontario...for half the wage. And then add in the higher cost of living X hours from the nearest major airport (thunder bay or sault ste. marie don't count) and why???

I also wonder why the need to immigrate when you have how many local kids and especially First Nations folks leaving the region due to lack of opportunities. So where is the training to allow them to stay and succeed instead of hiring "immediate credentials" via immigration...and watch them leave for Toronto first opportunity?

 

[CBH99]

So many people think that TFW are the greatest thing that ever happened to business but in my experience they are far from it. Back circa 2010 2 of my friends had businesses that had TFW and in both cases after a year or so they both sent them all home because they were far more trouble than they were worth.

In 1 case my friend bought a DQ in a small AB city that came with mostly Filipina women TFW. His experience was far less than spectacular and he asked me to help him straighten things out since he was working a camp job at the time which prevented him from being at the restaurant as much as he would have liked. Problems included but not limited to:

1 - the TFWs didn't like it when he would hire someone local and they would create a hostile work environment for any local person until they quit.
2 - they were always trying to get him to hire more of their family members and bring them to Canada
3 - inspite of being told not to many times, at the end of the day if there wasn't a local employee present they would cook up around a hundred dollars worth of food and take it home with them. He had been wondering why some days the profits were way down compared to others. We installed cameras one evening after they had left and had the answers pretty quickly.
4 - one of the ladies was extremely attractive and inspite of her being married, with a husband in the Philippines, she was constantly hitting on my friend who is happily married and telling him she would make a much better wife if he would only help her immigrate.
5 - inspite of the conditions of visa stating they could only work at this DQ, after being told for the umptheenth time not to steal food at the end of shift they all went over to the local Timmies and applied there. It paid $0.75/hr more than DQ. Unfortunately for them the owner of the Timmies was a friend and we knew about it almost as soon as their resumes hit the desk.

At this point my friend had interviewed and hired a couple of local teens but they hadn't started yet. He asked my what I thought and I said "plane tickets for all of them, if we temporarily reduce hrs until the new people are up to speed we should be fine." It worked and that was the end of his TFW experience.

I was less involved in the other business. It was an independent truck and trailer repair shop. I did hear quite a few things about his experiences trying to bring in mechanics and welders from former soviet union countries and it was pretty crazy. Mostly people so desperate they would lie about everything. He had the advantage of speaking Russian nearly fluently so he could communicate with them in their own language and it still turned out to be a disaster.

It sure isn't sunshine and roses if you are a small business owner.

Wow! None of that is surprising, but at the same time it's still pretty...just...wow!

I have a buddy who opened a daycare a few years back (unfortunately Covid killed the business) and he too had to hire some Filipina TFW's. (He's Filipino, so they could communicate fairly easily)

Everything you mentioned is the exact same experience he had. Always pressure for him to hire one of their family members, and they'd complain about petty nonsense. And they absolutely would conspire to create a negative work environment to any local ladies who were hire.

 

[The Bread Guy]

The latest: closing the tap a bit as of 26 Sept ....

Minister Boissonnault reducing the number of temporary foreign workers in Canada - Canada.ca

The Temporary Foreign Worker (TFW) Program is designed as an extraordinary measure to be used only when qualified Canadians and permanent residents are not able to fill job vacancies.

www.canada.ca

More from MSM

Canada to reduce the number of temporary foreign workers: Liberals

The Liberal government says it plans to reduce the number of temporary foreign workers in Canada in an effort to fight 'fraud' and 'misuse' of the program.

www.ctvnews.ca

Justin Trudeau announces tighter rules for low-wage temporary foreign workers

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s government will be restricting eligibility to cut the number of low-wage temporary foreign workers. Read on

financialpost.com

Ottawa considering reduction to permanent resident numbers, further restricts temporary foreign worker program

Three main changes to the temporary foreign worker program will be implemented next month and will reimpose pre-pandemic rules

www.theglobeandmail.com

Ottawa to limit low-wage temporary foreign workers in Canada - National | Globalnews.ca

The federal government is moving to restrict the number of temporary foreign workers in Canada, with the exception of some sectors.

globalnews.ca

Let's see what happens, then ...

 

[suffolkowner]

Its amazing how incompetent this Trudeau government is at pretty much everything. Its always we didnt know or didnt expect

 

[The Bread Guy]

A brief overview of the evolution of immigration via the Library of Parliament ...

Recent Evolution of Canadian Immigration Policy - HillNotes

Under Section 94 of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, which came into effect 28 June 2002, the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration is required to table an annual report to Parliament on the immigration initiatives and actions of the previous year. The report to Parliament must also...

hillnotes.ca

Couple of key graphics ....


Also attached if link doesn't work.

 

[Edward Campbell]

David Parkins, drawing in the Globe and Mail, chimes in: