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SFontaine
Guest
Then maybe disband the Air Force 
Friendly fire' pilot given reprimand and fine
- Thread starter Scoobie Newbie
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Hawaii Mike
Guest
You must have an appreciation for the US military's penchant for writing between the lines. Basically, this guy has been cast out by the Air Force. He'll never fly anything again and the FAA will probably pull his civilian endorsements as well. This is as far as the USAF can go; at the end of the day, they armed him, gave him a commission and let him fly. They've done evrything they could to hammer him yet save themselves from more liability. Anything more would call into question the judgment of his superiors in allowing him to get into the cockpit in the first place.
I must add, as a partisan for Marine Corps CAS doctrine, that the Air Farce has never been particularly good at that mission. They fly too high and too fast for effective support. "Low and Slow" is the way to go, as it were. Recall also that the AF tried for years to delay, forestall, cancel, kill and abandon the A-10. They only kept it to save their turf from the Army. Sickening, actually. Fifty-seven years after they were mistakenly given birth, and they still haven't realized that they are, at best, a supporting arm. Not a very good one, at that. In comparison, all USMC officers are trained as riflemen first. Navy and Marine Corps officers serve as ground-based FACs in the ANGLICO and infantry battalion fire support coordination center. Air Force pilots don't serve as FACs on the ground, as far as I know. They fly FAC missions from F-16s! How? I don't know. Not well.
If ANGLICO sailors and Marines had been with your lads, this never would have happened. If it'd been AV-8B or F/A-18 above, this could've been avoided. I apologize for my country's inept air force.
I must add, as a partisan for Marine Corps CAS doctrine, that the Air Farce has never been particularly good at that mission. They fly too high and too fast for effective support. "Low and Slow" is the way to go, as it were. Recall also that the AF tried for years to delay, forestall, cancel, kill and abandon the A-10. They only kept it to save their turf from the Army. Sickening, actually. Fifty-seven years after they were mistakenly given birth, and they still haven't realized that they are, at best, a supporting arm. Not a very good one, at that. In comparison, all USMC officers are trained as riflemen first. Navy and Marine Corps officers serve as ground-based FACs in the ANGLICO and infantry battalion fire support coordination center. Air Force pilots don't serve as FACs on the ground, as far as I know. They fly FAC missions from F-16s! How? I don't know. Not well.
If ANGLICO sailors and Marines had been with your lads, this never would have happened. If it'd been AV-8B or F/A-18 above, this could've been avoided. I apologize for my country's inept air force.
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I don't know about current American doctrine, but during the Ia Drang campaign of Vietnam in 1965, an air force pilot was assigned to LCol Moore's men to coordinate the many airstrikes that were conducted during the battle at LZ X-Ray. As well, many air force planes flew sorties in the battle, including Skyraider prop planes that were good for ground attack because of their slow speed and high payload.
We Were Soldiers Once... And Young is a very good book. Moore states that the airstrikes and other firepower support were invaluable in preventing the NVA from overruning the Air Cav units.
We Were Soldiers Once... And Young is a very good book. Moore states that the airstrikes and other firepower support were invaluable in preventing the NVA from overruning the Air Cav units.
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Hawaii Mike, I would hope that the biggest difference between Air Force pilots and Marine aviators would be that a Marine would stand tall and take his licks graciously and show remorse for any wrongdoing UNLIKE this oxygen bandit from the Air Force. I believe that the Marines, as a group, instill that in their men. Correct me if I am wrong.
I have read that over 70% of the Boston Fire Department are former Marines. As a member of the Fire Service, this states something very important to me: That Marines have the core values that are essential in the emergency services, honesty, integrity and performance for the greater good, not the individual. I have alot of respect for ANY Marine.
God forbid this ever happens again.
Cheers
I have read that over 70% of the Boston Fire Department are former Marines. As a member of the Fire Service, this states something very important to me: That Marines have the core values that are essential in the emergency services, honesty, integrity and performance for the greater good, not the individual. I have alot of respect for ANY Marine.
God forbid this ever happens again.
Cheers
devil39
Sr. Member
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Hawaii Mike said:
I doubt that ANGLICO types on the ground would have made a difference. Our FOO/FACs are very competent troops, and I would soldier anywhere with them. Transitting a/c, targets of opportunity, etc.
The USAF is not inept. I am certain that their very presence saved a hundred times the friendly lives that they took in that theatre.
I am certain the sentiment is appreciated. This post in no way excuses the actions of a rogue who took the lives of some great soldiers.
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Hawaii Mike
Guest
I believe you are correct in your assessment of the situation. Nobody on the ground that night could've prevented this idiot from doing what he did. And I do recognize the inherently good qualities of most ground controllers, USAF CCTs amongst them. I am trying to illustrate the USAF notion that CAS are the bastard stepchildren of that service.
For over half a century, politics associated with first the post-WWII "bomber" AF, and then the McNamara-era-onward "Fighter" AF have dominated USAF policy. CAS has always been given short shrift by the blue suiters. USMC/USN doctrine is exactly 180 opposite. We all know that air power has never won a war. Always been bayonets and balls. However, Gen. Curtis Lemay and his ilk, post-WWII, managed to convince the nation that strategic airpower brought the Germans and Japanese to their knees. BS, and we all know it. Both countries had industrial capacity at or in excess of 1941 levels by the time the war ended. This jerkoff in Afghanistan is a direct product of that thinking. Just as a good rifleman will never use un-aimed fire, sh should a pilot be at least a bit more sure of what is on the ground below him. He probably ignored the "deconfliction" portion of his pre-flight mission brief.
A1-D "Spads" and A-10 Warthogs? Great, beautiful aircraft. Wish we had more of 'em. But you'll never see a CAS pilot as chief of staff or even as CG TAC (or whatever it's called these days).
By the way, love this board. Thoughtful, reasoned, gentlemanly dialogue. Reminds me of the Canadians I worked with here a few years ago. Frightfully polite arguments. I went and bought a six-pack of Labatt's in honor of you guys tonight. Also have fond, if hazy, memories of port call in St Johns. Screech!
For over half a century, politics associated with first the post-WWII "bomber" AF, and then the McNamara-era-onward "Fighter" AF have dominated USAF policy. CAS has always been given short shrift by the blue suiters. USMC/USN doctrine is exactly 180 opposite. We all know that air power has never won a war. Always been bayonets and balls. However, Gen. Curtis Lemay and his ilk, post-WWII, managed to convince the nation that strategic airpower brought the Germans and Japanese to their knees. BS, and we all know it. Both countries had industrial capacity at or in excess of 1941 levels by the time the war ended. This jerkoff in Afghanistan is a direct product of that thinking. Just as a good rifleman will never use un-aimed fire, sh should a pilot be at least a bit more sure of what is on the ground below him. He probably ignored the "deconfliction" portion of his pre-flight mission brief.
A1-D "Spads" and A-10 Warthogs? Great, beautiful aircraft. Wish we had more of 'em. But you'll never see a CAS pilot as chief of staff or even as CG TAC (or whatever it's called these days).
By the way, love this board. Thoughtful, reasoned, gentlemanly dialogue. Reminds me of the Canadians I worked with here a few years ago. Frightfully polite arguments. I went and bought a six-pack of Labatt's in honor of you guys tonight. Also have fond, if hazy, memories of port call in St Johns. Screech!
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Hawaii Mike
Guest
Mr Baker: Under United States Code, all service members' records are considered public documents, with the exception of those portions that deal with classified matter. A Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request to DoD will get you anybody's service records. That's how PJ Burkett (Stolen Valor) manages to expose pathetic wannabe Vietnam veterans. Next time you hear some fat loser in the VFW bragging about his "classified" unit or "secret" commendation, the red flags should go up. Units, personnel records, commendations and punishments are not classified. Only the "where" and "how" and "when" might reasonably be considered sensitive. To stretch a point, military members in the US are considered public servants. Their pays, assignments, qualifications, disciplinary records and awards are open to scrutiny.
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Well shabong..if you want people to understand your point at least try to get the facts straight or use emotes. :
Jarnhamar
Army.ca Myth
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If that is accurate Hawaii Mike (Very informitive posts as well thank you) Then i can't see this pilots lawsuit going very far regarding the release of his reprimand. This guy is like that dumb kid when your going up that everyone picks on. He just doens't know when to quit.
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Very good post, Mike. I didn't know that about American Service Records. Thank you. And I do agree that if that is the case then this guy probably has no shot of winning his lawsuit and will just be disgraced more, but he seems like the sort who will just sue again for something else, and then when he loses that he will sue for yet another thing. Guys like this have no remorse because they have never been taught about it and this fella is too stooooooopid to realize that he should quit while he is ahead. He's just pi**ed because he got his precious wings yarded away from him. F*** him
Sorry for the ignorance of my post but I cannot believe the ignorance of that man!
Cheers!
Sorry for the ignorance of my post but I cannot believe the ignorance of that man!
Cheers!
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I always appreciated the USMC doctorine that absolutely everyone was a ground pounder first. that way a pilot or tanker could appreciate teh infantry and there needs.
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SFontaine
Guest
*Crickets*
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Hawaii Mike
Guest
Mr. Baker,
Why would I want to see your service records? I'm confused.
www.usdoj.gov/oip/foia_updates/Vol_XVII_4/page2.htm
Why would I want to see your service records? I'm confused.
www.usdoj.gov/oip/foia_updates/Vol_XVII_4/page2.htm
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Hawaii Mike
Guest
And....
www.archives.gov/facilities/mo/st_louis/military_personnel_records/foia_info.html
www.archives.gov/facilities/mo/st_louis/military_personnel_records/foia_info.html
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commando_wolf63
Guest
This jetjock what an ego he was told not to fire yet, he did as he darn well pleased. Insubordination or what. What is more galling is the fact he's showing no remorse, and is concidering suing the USAF. If the shoe were on the other foot and a Canadian pilot killed a bunch of US soldiers his butt would have been raked over the coals been handed a dishonerable discharge and would be sitting in prison. Not to mention the U.S. would be asking for his head on a platter (excuse the pun)
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SFontaine
Guest
commando_wolf63 said:
You have any evidence that would happen or are you just speculating?
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commando_wolf63
Guest
to SFontaine I guess it would be a speculation then. But that's not the point Our soldiers were either killed or injured and This USAF pilot is showing no remorse for disobeying orders and has the B***s to sue his Gov't for stripping him of his flight status :
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cpl forrester
Guest
there is no greater deed in the calling to lay down ur life for ur country...........but blue on blue is a real problem we have lost many of our friends in such misstakes (a10 attack strafing 9 of over boys) miss directed arti and mbt fire but all this is down to one thing mistakes it all about do they know were u r i think multi coalition forces sould allways be aware of where others r many tanks m.r.v. and fcp" foward command posts " r the ones at fault as they ultimately give the weapons free comands. so in that respect thy are the persons with the shame for lack of appreciation of the facts and info under there noses and there respons ( u will always have blue on blue on a fast moving fast changing battle field ) i say crock of s**t no plane tank or infantry unit is as fast as radio and satellite................but a side that my heart will allways go out to the loved ones who r never told the whole truth as they sould.
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Yard Ape
Guest
Friendly fire pilot loses appeal
Associated Press
Barksdale Air Force Base, La. â †A U.S. fighter pilot found guilty of dereliction of duty in the mistaken bombing that killed four Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan in 2002 has lost his appeal.
Lieutenant-General Bruce Carlson, who handed down the verdict against Major Harry Schmidt, said in a letter of reprimand that Major Schmidt â Å“acted shamefullyâ ? and exhibited â Å“arrogance and a lack of flight disciplineâ ? in the bombing.
Major Schmidt, who was ordered to forfeit more than $5,000 (U.S.) in pay, had appealed the ruling, saying the reprimand was issued as a â Å“desire to mount a public relations campaign rather than actually attempt to see justice done.â ?
Major Schmidt said he mistook the Canadians' gunfire for an attack from Taliban fighters. The pilot said his superiors never told him that the Canadians would be conducting live-fire exercises near Kandahar airport that night.
The U.S. Air Force announced Monday that Gen. Carlson had rejected Major Schmidt's appeal. The case will be forwarded to General Hal Hornburg, commander of the air force combat command, for a final decision, the air force said.
Looks like it is still not over.
Associated Press
Barksdale Air Force Base, La. â †A U.S. fighter pilot found guilty of dereliction of duty in the mistaken bombing that killed four Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan in 2002 has lost his appeal.
Lieutenant-General Bruce Carlson, who handed down the verdict against Major Harry Schmidt, said in a letter of reprimand that Major Schmidt â Å“acted shamefullyâ ? and exhibited â Å“arrogance and a lack of flight disciplineâ ? in the bombing.
Major Schmidt, who was ordered to forfeit more than $5,000 (U.S.) in pay, had appealed the ruling, saying the reprimand was issued as a â Å“desire to mount a public relations campaign rather than actually attempt to see justice done.â ?
Major Schmidt said he mistook the Canadians' gunfire for an attack from Taliban fighters. The pilot said his superiors never told him that the Canadians would be conducting live-fire exercises near Kandahar airport that night.
The U.S. Air Force announced Monday that Gen. Carlson had rejected Major Schmidt's appeal. The case will be forwarded to General Hal Hornburg, commander of the air force combat command, for a final decision, the air force said.
Looks like it is still not over.
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