G Wagon C&R
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Tanner
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The Crew Comd has waayyy too many things to think about. He has to maintain situational awareness, comms, target aquisition, crew command, etc. By adding gunnery to the list of tasks a crew comd has to perform (as would be the case if the Crew Comd were in the Turret), you will deteriorate the effectiveness of the Veh/ Ptl. A designated gunner (not the Crew Comd) will allow the veh to maneouver, communicate, apply fire control and gunnery techniques, deal with IA's and stoppages, while maintaining the core functions of a recce platform.
:tank:
:tank:
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Tanner said:
Can't agree. Having been in one, the CC can't do any of the above effectively while sitting in the passenger seat. You can't tell the gunner what to lay on if you can't see it. You can't pick your next bound if you're below the crest and can't see. Comms is nothing, we do that all the time anyway. We did all the above and worked the MG while in the Ferret, and the .50 in the Lynx, we can do it here too. Also much easier for the Observer to dismount for his various tasks, without switching places. Besides, almost always, you shouldn't be firing unless you've done something wrong or made a mistake, which you will if you're inside and can't see or hear what's going on..
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Tanner
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Can't comment on the Ferret or Lynx. WRT the G Wagon, my SOP's dictate the Crew Comd dismounts for the various Recce drills (WSRP). My knowledge of the G Wagon also dictates that the Turret (read wpn) is for local security, if the CC dismounts, who maintains Security. I agree that Sit Awareness is better served with the Comd in the turret, but I cannot see it working from a practical standpoint. Moreover, I do not want to apply the old turret/ hull down techniques before I see this veh in action.
Yours..
Yours..
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Last time I was with you guys (SG 04) most of you didn't even have SOP's ;D Well, it's a step in the right direction anyway, guess the AAR process works! 
You'll find for most tasks the GIB, as we call him at the moment in Iltis, will be doing the dismount. As to the rest, I've had the veh course and all I can say is wait till you try command it from the passenger seat. I'm sure you'll change your mind, by the time you can see, you've exposed half the vehicle and the guy in the top. Envision telling your cougar driver to approach the crest until he can see over it. Where's that put you and your turret? The commander has to pick the next position, not the gunner. Otherwise, you're just a passenger. Personally, I want to see and hear everything that's going on 360 around me when I command. You won't even be able to control the junior car from inside, you won't know where he is. Sure it's just not the officer's aversion to being out in the elements
You'll find for most tasks the GIB, as we call him at the moment in Iltis, will be doing the dismount. As to the rest, I've had the veh course and all I can say is wait till you try command it from the passenger seat. I'm sure you'll change your mind, by the time you can see, you've exposed half the vehicle and the guy in the top. Envision telling your cougar driver to approach the crest until he can see over it. Where's that put you and your turret? The commander has to pick the next position, not the gunner. Otherwise, you're just a passenger. Personally, I want to see and hear everything that's going on 360 around me when I command. You won't even be able to control the junior car from inside, you won't know where he is. Sure it's just not the officer's aversion to being out in the elements
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Tanner
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We, unfortunately, have to make the veh fit the doctrine, tour, threat level. My hope is that the Army will allow flexibility within veh configuration for the mission specific threats (recce tactics in Kabul not the same as Germany circa 1980). The CC in Kabul dismounts repeatedly for recce's, chats with the populace (Humint). In fact, they hurried up the deployment of the G-Wagon because of the direct, local threat posed by the populace. Local security must be maintained by having someone in the turret at all times!!! I have to see this veh, but remain unconvinced that the CC will be in the Turret. I do acknowledge your point regarding Hull/Turret down positions. I think we must, both, keep an open mind on the practical and tactical considerations of operating this veh.
Cheers
Cheers
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When your in Kabul, things other than what we do here at home will dictate. While we're here at home and crossing Wainwright, Gagetown or Pet, I'm sure we'll be using the same SOP's we used this summer. Basically, what we've always used. The new doctrine still follows this lead. I'm well aware of the mission specific SOP's we operated in Kabul. I know how to suck eggs, I did it for six months, BTDT, got the shirt. We still train to operate in other than built up, populated areas. If you don't train your young CC's to the Corps \ school doctrine and SOP's, you only make it harder on them when they go on course. I'm not sure who voted up top, but given the armoured experiance on the board, I'd say you're in a minority. A characteristic of Recce is flexibility, I'm sure that won't change. We'll agree to disagree, with a points covered, wait and see approach.
BTW, you don't become a member by making yourself one in your profile. You need a certain amount of posts. Your still classified as a guest. You should really change it. It may be confusing for somepeople not familiar with the Forum rules. Welcome.
BTW, you don't become a member by making yourself one in your profile. You need a certain amount of posts. Your still classified as a guest. You should really change it. It may be confusing for somepeople not familiar with the Forum rules. Welcome.
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It is a bit unfair to compare the G-wagon to a Ferret or Lynx, since they were purpose designed Armourred Fighting Vehicles, and the G-wagon is not. Following from the other posts, it seems the G-wagon should be crewed according to the situation, so taking a G-wagon out in the field or doing a route recce might best be served with the CC up top, while urban patrols involving HUMINT should have the CC in the passenger seat.
Of course we could also wish for the AFV fairy to deliver a purpose built recce vehicle under our christmas tree...
Of course we could also wish for the AFV fairy to deliver a purpose built recce vehicle under our christmas tree...
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a_majoor said:
What I said. Though maybe not so succinctly ;D
look at how the other country's employ their cc's in their similar types of vehicles. CC in the turret means one less cc in a real op, gunner normally first one to bite the dust. although not the best posn in the passenger seat it is better then being exposed.CC needs to read map and maintain control, the story on being able to see around him better, yes but kind of hard to see your map when it is flapping in your face, or control the radio when you are standing on them. I think people look more into the LCF then they do the actual role they do. this is not to disrespect the cc, the person in the turret should be a senior person in the det that has shown experience and works closely with the cc to keep them informed of the terrain and situation as they see it.. but all personal should be trained to do this job as they are the eyes and ears of the cc, and thus would Carry out an important job.
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Tanner
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CTD,
There are many veh configurations available. A given configuration may be good in one instance, but bad in another. What is required is a vehicle that can be configured to the specific threat. We seem to always receive vehs that were intended for other purposes. Cougar (tank trainer), Iltis (staff car)- and I won't discuss the Milcot :rage:. We seem to make do with the equipment available. For instance, the Gizzily was used as an Infantry Recce Veh in Bosnia for many years with the CC located behind the driver. Why?? Because that was where the radio tray was located and, secondly, they weren't trained on the .50. When we get a new veh for Recce, we have to avoid the mindset that a person must be here or there. My experience leads me one way, Recceguy might see it otherwise. There is no right or wrong answer and I certainly hope that my discussion above will shed light on other considerations with the veh. Among the other considerations is the wpn system, type of turret, type of veh (ATV??). We will see what happens
There are many veh configurations available. A given configuration may be good in one instance, but bad in another. What is required is a vehicle that can be configured to the specific threat. We seem to always receive vehs that were intended for other purposes. Cougar (tank trainer), Iltis (staff car)- and I won't discuss the Milcot :rage:. We seem to make do with the equipment available. For instance, the Gizzily was used as an Infantry Recce Veh in Bosnia for many years with the CC located behind the driver. Why?? Because that was where the radio tray was located and, secondly, they weren't trained on the .50. When we get a new veh for Recce, we have to avoid the mindset that a person must be here or there. My experience leads me one way, Recceguy might see it otherwise. There is no right or wrong answer and I certainly hope that my discussion above will shed light on other considerations with the veh. Among the other considerations is the wpn system, type of turret, type of veh (ATV??). We will see what happens
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IMHO the fact that this discussion is occurring at all just points out the serious unsuitability of the hardtop version for the wheeled recce role. As discussed on other G-Wagen threads on this site, we need to buy the "SF" or "gun truck" version (or modify the hardtops) to get a vehicle that is really useful for recce. Cheers.
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Recce41 said:
It's a friggin TRUCK! Totally unsuited for the role of Recce. (Unless you take the top off and the windshield, mount the GPMG on a mount on the dash, and lose the roll bar, it will remain a REMF Truck.
GW
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Tanner
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Recce41 said:
Lets not get personal. Some of us may have friends who have been injured and/ or killed due to deployments in unsuitable vehs. The crew configuration has everything to do with veh survivability and, accordingly, warrants discussion. If you have something to contribute make your point.
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Tanner
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Perhaps I should not be so sensitive :-[
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Tanner,
Don't worry, it's all good discussion. Like sitting around in the mess. Your right though, this is not the right place to come if you have delicate sensibilities.
Recce41 is like the resident pit bull. He barks and growls at us once in awhile as a way of exercising his internal demons. He really does like us. ;D
Don't worry, it's all good discussion. Like sitting around in the mess. Your right though, this is not the right place to come if you have delicate sensibilities.
Recce41 is like the resident pit bull. He barks and growls at us once in awhile as a way of exercising his internal demons. He really does like us. ;D
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Dave
I only like you, HAHA. It's just disturbs me. We had this crap with the iltis here at the school, for courses. George, The GW is a truck so is the LF. But the Germains/Brits use it/them for Recce. The Hummer is the same. A hard top.
Tanner I have lost friends also. So your not special. We don't have to Rat Patrol style any more. The mod that was asked for though was another hatch over the passager side.
It's a good to great veh. It's better than a Iltis. I'd take it over a Coyote. For Recce. :evil: :tank:
I only like you, HAHA. It's just disturbs me. We had this crap with the iltis here at the school, for courses. George, The GW is a truck so is the LF. But the Germains/Brits use it/them for Recce. The Hummer is the same. A hard top.
Tanner I have lost friends also. So your not special. We don't have to Rat Patrol style any more. The mod that was asked for though was another hatch over the passager side.
It's a good to great veh. It's better than a Iltis. I'd take it over a Coyote. For Recce. :evil: :tank:
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Dave
Reference your last....it is still a REMF truck, even if you want to do a mod and put the hatch over the passenger seat. You can not do Recce in an enclosed vehicle like that. You have to completely remove the superstructure to have any semblance of a Recce Veh. Windshields give off glare. Doors, windows and roofs cut down on all round visability and hearing. Roll Bars raise the profile. On a whole, it is not a Recce vehicle in its current configuration.
GW
Reference your last....it is still a REMF truck, even if you want to do a mod and put the hatch over the passenger seat. You can not do Recce in an enclosed vehicle like that. You have to completely remove the superstructure to have any semblance of a Recce Veh. Windshields give off glare. Doors, windows and roofs cut down on all round visability and hearing. Roll Bars raise the profile. On a whole, it is not a Recce vehicle in its current configuration.
GW
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