G8/G20 June 2010 Protest Watch

[vonGarvin]

I bet more protesters are injured by less than lethal munitions than police by... rocks? They're in riot gear and only a very small segment of idiots throw rocks at the police.

This ain't no rock.  But as for throwing rocks at police, I agree with you: they are idiots, the rock throwers.

Plus, police want nothing more than for a few idiots to throw some rocks so they can silence the masses.

Source for this, please?

Need you be reminded of the cops in quebec playing dressup to try and incite from violence from the protesters there?

I remember that quite well, actually.  Those police were indeed in amongst the masses.  I agree with you that that was idiotic on their part; however, I hardly think that using this one case to universalise it is applicable.
I mean, given the photo below, does this mean that all they are saying, is give pieces of glass a chance?

 

[Kat Stevens]

"Silence the masses" ?      :rofl:

Been boning up on your Lenin, Mao, and Guevara,  I see

 

[Flavour Country]

Source for this, please?

Source: myself. Can you think of a reason police would dress like radical protesters and have rocks in their hands? They couldn't even get the costumes right, did you see that guys sidewayzzz hat.

 

[PuckChaser]

Can you think of a reason police would dress like radical protesters and have rocks in their hands? They couldn't even get the costumes right, did you see that guys sidewayzzz hat.

Just because someone dresses like a retard, it makes them an undercover cop? Are all the rock throwers cops trying to get people in trouble? Maybe the RCMP staged the Ottawa bank firebombing just to justify their presence at the G20 protests.

More and more your posts are showing just how out of touch with reality you are. You've really jumped onto the wrong forum and tried to spout your anarchist BS. Nobody here is buying it.

 

[Teeps74]

Question.

http://www.rabble.ca/babble/national-news/royal-bank-firebombed-ottawa-part-three

Read that and the other two threads. Then answer this question.

Do you feel that the security apparatus is going too far when supposed peaceniks are advocating violent action openly? Many long time posters on that board are not only making excuses on behalf of the bombers, but they are pushing for more such "action".

Sadly, with the wanton destruction wrought during Seattle, the security apparatus is now here to stay.  The police have offered to communicate with and come up woth solutions HOWEVER, the protest groups want nothing to do with "the man".

I have zero sympathy for the protestors. None. Until they get rid of altogether the violent factions that crash their party. Unfortunately, that will not happen, as, apparently, the "peaceful" protestors WANT that violent faction there.

Oh, and sources, well. Try a credible verifiable source.

 

[mariomike]

National Post:
"G20: Toronto to clear out bus shelters, trash cans, newspaper boxes: The City of Toronto is removing all transit shelters, garbage cans and newspaper boxes on streets within the G20 security perimeter and traffic-calming zone.
Overall, 1,000 pieces of street furniture will be removed, according to city spokesman Rob Andrusevich, for the purpose of “ensuring a safe G20 experience for everyone” during the summit happening later this month.":
http://news.nationalpost.com/2010/06/01/g20-toronto-to-clear-out-bus-shelters-trash-cans-newspaper-boxes/

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Like was said folks. Just variations of the same old, same old. Is it really worth it?

 

[mellian]

The security planned is to stop people from harming the leaders of the most powerful nations in the world... whackjobs that firebomb local branches of a bank will probably not think twice about throwing the same molotov cocktail at another human being. Preventing idiots from smashing windows just because they can in the name of "anarchy" is just a positive side effect.

Do not need 1 billion dollars to do that for a two day event.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Should not need 1 billion dollars to do that for a two day event.

I fixed that for you.  It would be great if we didn't need to spend any money on extra security, unfortunately the "extreme sport of rioting" gang have a different plan for keeping thousands of cops and soldiers entertained during the Summit.

Also, we have yet to see any breakdown of that reported "1 billion". How much of it is wages and other costs that would have been spent anyway, but now get cost captured to the event?

 

[mellian]

I fixed that for you.  It would be great if we didn't need to spend any money on extra security, unfortunately the "extreme sport of rioting" gang have a different plan for keeping thousands of cops and soldiers entertained during the Summit.

Also, we have yet to see any breakdown of that reported "1 billion". How much of it is wages and other costs that would have been spent anyway, but now get cost captured to the event?

The amount of police officers they had when Bush came to Ottawa or even G8 or Montebello was much less than for G20 in 2001 with the formers resulting in being more all around peaceful, and the size of the protest was about the same with the unfortunate usual amount of the "direct actions" folks. Yes, Toronto protests will be much bigger and quite possibly more intense....but 1 billion?

It would be great to get the break down, but it has already been suggested in various articles that they are using the event as an excuse to acquire some new tech and equipment that can be use beyond just protests they normally would not be able to get under their regular annual budgets. Otherwise, if it is all wages and overtime, then it would suggest they are trying to outnumber the protesters which has proven to not be all that effective in previous protests (at least the ones I was at).

Battle of Seattle was a disaster mainly because no one expected to go that out of control nor were ready for it. Been over ten years and multiple meetings and protests since, one would think much have been learned to provide security without ballooning the budget. Especially after Quebec, which I believe police tried to hard and ended up helped causing the fiasco there and then too. Deal with protests and all the aspects involved requires balance and escalations/de-escalations in small increments. I believe Ottawa Police was getting it right.

 

[Michael OLeary]

....but 1 billion?

Well, perhaps if you could explain exactly what level and activities are being planned for protesters, and guarantee it, then we could scale back the arrangements.  Without that information and assurances, planning for less than worse case and failing is not an acceptable approach.

 

[mariomike]

There is some discussion of overtime in the National Post:
"Oliver, like many Canadians and many journalists, wonders why the government just didn’t use the army to guard world leaders rather than pay overtime, etc. to unionized police forces like the RCMP and OPP. Toews presents an odd argument: If we went with the soldiers, the Liberals would have got upset":
OLIVER: You’re spending hundreds of millions of dollars here on RCMP overtime.
TOEWS: Yes."
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2010/05/31/vic-toews-tries-to-explain-1-billion-g20-tab/

Globe and Mail:
"Most of the city's 5,000 uniformed officers are expected to work during the G20 weekend next month."
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/g8-g20/news/toronto-police-to-take-up-to-100-million-of-g20-security-funds/article1583548/
Likewise, Toronto's 800 Paramedics. All vacations have been cancelled for the month of June.

National Post:
"promising double-time pay for 12-hour shifts, for nine days straight in the days leading up to and during the summit.":
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2010/05/25/torontos-g20-plan-is-a-paranoids-dream/
“It’s a good deal for us,” said an officer. “We’ll make some good money.”

Globe and Mail:
"Toronto Police to take up to $100-million of G20 security funds":
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/g8-g20/news/toronto-police-to-take-up-to-100-million-of-g20-security-funds/article1583548/

National Post:
"One has to wonder what message Toronto is trying to convey — or, rather, what message Ottawa is trying to convey, since the city of Toronto urged Ottawa to hold the summit at the CNE grounds,  where it could easily be ringed off without entirely disrupting normal life. But no. For some bizarre reason, the Conservatives insist on holding it in the centre of the city, perhaps to impress all the other political heavyweights with Ottawa’s ability to bring the country’s biggest city to a screeching halt on a summer weekend."

If you are going to host a riot potential riot, the EX is a better venue for it.
I remember being sent into this one. Folding metal chairs were flying through the air like frisbees!:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scrIUhGUQuo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXO-lBDadzc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZiJ5WwO3do&feature=related

CITY-TV:
"The federal government will not be compensating any business owners during the summits.":
http://www.citytv.com/toronto/citynews/news/international/article/77936--protesting-the-g20-with-graffiti

National Post:
"G8/G20: How the money is being spent":
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/canada/politics/money+being+spent/3104265/story.html

 

[mellian]

Well, perhaps if you could explain exactly what level and activities are being planned for protesters, and guarantee it, then we could scale back the arrangements.  Without that information and assurances, planning for less than worse case and failing is not an acceptable approach.

This sort of mentality is part of why communications and relations between the police/security and protest groups/main organizers tend to always breakdown, and in turn risk fiascos of Seattle and Quebec.

Most of the organizers and their groups/organizations involved in the planning of the G20 have the goal of peaceful protest, and will do whatever they can to make that happen, and keep it away from any more violent actions and confrontations. They will also try to keep reason with any groups planning 'direct actions' to not do so among the peaceful majority, if not doing them at all. Meanwhile, they will also try to plan and be ready for the worse. Medics, marshals, monitors, lawyers on standby to deal with arrests, food areas, etc. They will know they will be able to predict or be able to anything about the 'direct action' folks apart from discouraging and try to keep them separate.

All this organized by committees that usually operate in consensus manner and comprise mainly volunteers. Then in the day or so before and even during, there will be larger meetings for those interested that provide the  'Plan' , with some questioning it and being against it (usually from some 'direct action' folks). Hopefully this 'Plan' will be communicated online and flyers.

To help encourage peaceful protest, police need to be able to tell the difference between peaceful crowds and the few 'direct action' folks. Keep the riot squads and heavier gear in reserve and only deploy them against the actual troublemakers and not peaceful protesters. Police at the front lines may get stress, but at least they have organized discipline. Protesters do not. They stress and freak, and stupid shit may happen. Beyond that, 'friendly' faces and surveillance. Also request whoever the main organizers to for police liaisons and information on who will be marshals, planned routes, and etc while avoiding to be bossy and trying to tell them what to do. Providing the security borders, what streets are blocked, etc would be enough for the organizers to work around, so need to force them into "zones".  Also enough to warn the public to avoid people getting stuck in the 'crossfire'. Sound cannons, tear gas, and rubber bullets should only be absolute last resort, and limited only among the few that are committing violence and trying to start a riot. Oh, and do not get goaded. While all the protest groups like to go on about agent provacateurs, there are the few real life trolls that will try to provoke the police to make the first actual violent moves to somehow justify their own.

So yes...I need to go to bed before I go on more. I wish I still had that email I wrote to Chief of Ottawa Police (before the present one) who actually asked me about my thoughts. I provided list of stuff both the police and protest groups in Ottawa could do better in regards to protests.

 

[Michael OLeary]

All that verbiage and you offer no solution to how the peaceful protesters will keep the "direct action folks" out of their areas in order to avoid giving the police a need to be deployed.

Do you not see that the security forces react to existing threats?

The police being there do not make the protesters start breaking windows and throwing firebombs.  The rioters choose to commit those crimes.

What is the plan of the "peaceful mass" to separate themselves from the "direct action folks"?


Edit to add:

Why even call it "direct action", that implies that you accept it as being part of the overall protest movement. Why don't the legitimate protesters work harder to separate themselves from these CRIMINALS? 

And can you explain this: "direct action" against who?  The taxpayers that have to see government money spent to provide the security forces that are only needed because of escalating "direct action" CRIMINAL activity, and also to repair the damage these CRIMINALS do?

 

[Kat Stevens]

And round and round we go...again.

 

[Flavour Country]

it wouldn't be so expensive if they weren't catering expensive food and putting all the security staff up in nice hotels...


all this to protect corporate interests....


Maybe they're pulling a haliburton and supplying $500 nuts and bolts to erect the security perimeter fence

 

[The Bread Guy]

Flavour Country:  The basic question, no matter how much you and others want to play the anti-capitalist card, has been repeated by more than one person - here's the latest iteration:

What is the plan of the "peaceful mass" to separate themselves from the "direct action folks"?

As long as we have groups saying very clearly they encourage "diversity in tactics" (translation:  we can't/won't stop the small number of arsonists/provocateurs/black bloc-ists), one prepares for the worst.

 

[Teeps74]

it wouldn't be so expensive if they weren't catering expensive food and putting all the security staff up in nice hotels...


all this to protect corporate interests....


Maybe they're pulling a haliburton and supplying $500 nuts and bolts to erect the security perimeter fence

To be blunt. The tactics you refuse to acknowledge, let alone stop, are an absolute barrier to us understanding anything to do with your view point. I may have been willing to listen prior to Seattle, but now, all I see at these things is a bunch of infantile thugs, throwing a massive temper tantrum, and doing serious damage to small businessmen and women (note, McDonald's restaurants for instance are independently owned and operated. Burn one down, and all you do is harm the working class, the corporate offices feel ZERO effect)

 

[The Bread Guy]

...preparation continues for the "Human Summit Project" - highlights mine - with a news conference next Monday, and a bit more in the Toronto Star:

On Sunday, June 27, The Human Summit – A mass meditation will be held in Toronto, Canada and in cities around the globe to coincide with the Toronto G20 Summit.

The Human Summit was born out of the desire to have a civil engagement response to the G-20 Summit in Toronto that is both spiritually and politically conscious.

As world leaders meet in Toronto to discuss the future of the global economy, there will be many voices clamoring for attention. Some of these voices will originate in chaos and fear and result in protests and civil disobedience. This meditation will offer a peaceful, non-violent alternative for conscious civil engagement to the residents and visitors to Toronto during the G-20 Summit.

The organizers of The Human Summit believe that the loudest and clearest voice will come from the silence of a large group of people sitting in meditation here in Toronto, while joined in consciousness by tens of thousands of others connected in silence simultaneously around the world.

Less may be more - interesting concept (although not great radio, admittedly).

Good on them showing concern/dissent =/= violent/criminal

 

[Danjanou]

Well here's where some of the Billion is going

http://www.contemporarysecurity.ca/

Hmmm so the guys checking the ID of those allowed access to the area will have been hired a whole week before hand. Yeah and who checked them out? :

I think i'll start digging a bunker in my East York backyard.