General Vance - Inappropriate conduct?

Navy_Pete

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This is crazy; I figured out to not crap where I sleep and date co-workers when I was a kid doing manual labour jobs. Even dating a civilian at DND as CDS seems fraught with peril given the power imbalance, let alone anyone in uniform. I don't know how you square that as CDS when everyone is uniform is potentially under your Command or subject to your authority, even if they aren't directly in your chain.

Makes all the OP Honour messages that came out under his banner seem especially hypocritical, but does reinforce the importance of the program.
 

ArmyRick

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Following. I am interested to see how this plays out. Rest assured Trudeau will have no hesitation putting distance between himself and Vance if this gets more intense. To put it bluntly, Vance put himself in at the very least, a very awkward situation. Lets see what else comes out of this investigation.
 

QM

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I suspect that outside of CAF circles this will barely register. Trudeau can say he didn’t choose him and will plead ignorance that may or may not have some basis in truth.
Its already hard to find on any Canadian media sites beyond the original carrier, Global News, where it has amassed a meager 26 comments so far (and half of those are from nutbar gurus offering scam advice on how to make money on the internet). No one outside a small circle seems to care about some Army guy having a girlfriend, even if to us it seems like a bombshell.
 

Haggis

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Its already hard to find on any Canadian media sites beyond the original carrier, Global News, where it has amassed a meager 26 comments so far (and half of those are from nutbar gurus offering scam advice on how to make money on the internet). No one outside a small circle seems to care about some Army guy having a girlfriend, even if to us it seems like a bombshell.
Other outlets have run with the original story but only Global seems to have the follow-up from this weekend. What remains to be seen is how the opposition will run with this in the House. The Trudeau clan has a history to tolerating indiscretions and the Liberals may well say "m'eh…. look over there!". When PET died, both his ex-wife and his mistress attended his funeral.
 

FormerHorseGuard

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If only 50% of the facts given in that interview are true, there has to be a big change to the top level of the CAF. Flag Officers have to step up and do the right thing. Fully vetted investigation and maybe with help from an outside service, and not the RCMP as they are not far enough removed from Ottawa and the people involved. OPP or a large city police force from outside the chain of command. Other NATO forces charge officers and NCOs after retirement and use full power of their laws, orders, rules to get justice. But this is more than getting Justice this making sure everyone knows this sort of behaviour and actions are wrong and no more looking the other way. The MND, should forget he was a LCOL and be a Minister and call this action what it is and be demanding hats off standing in front of his desk with letters of punishment, resignations and charge parades, court martials. Jr Ranks would be charged, the top levels should face the same punishments. I am sure this falls in with the catch all 129 Conduct unbecoming...........

This almost sounds like a militia unit from the 80s and 90s and how officers and jr ranks dated and then worked together but this Top position issuing a set of orders and using the not with standing clause. No one can bust me, or address my failure because I am the boss. The CDS needs a strong RSM, and a strong 2IC who will tell him when he or she makes a mistake and how to correct it. He failed his position and failed his leadership.

To me this just proves no one has respect for themselves or those who serve below them if they allow this continue.
 

Bruce Monkhouse

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Mercedes has really got her teeth into this one.
Which is good I believe......from what I've seen she won't do it looking to smear the organization , but instead go after those folk who themselves smeared the organization by their actions, or lack thereof.
 

Jarnhamar

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Former military ombudsman claims DND vendetta drove him into retirement​

He also said the process gained significant traction only after a major, private falling out between him and Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan.

Walbourne refused to disclose the substance of his disagreement with the minister in the late winter of 2018, but said it was serious enough that Sajjan refused to speak or even meet with him for the remainder of his tenure.

"It was a stiff conversation between adults that got a little heated," he said. "Going into detail may breach some of the oaths I've taken as Order in Council appointee."

What do you suppose that disagreement was about?

I wonder what the topic was that upset the government so much and caused our MND to cover his ears and yell la la la la la la.

I guess we'll never know.
 

Bruce Monkhouse

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I wonder, if the 3 parties put forward a motion for a complete public inquiry , would the Liberals go full 'confident vote'?
 

HiTechComms

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Former military ombudsman claims DND vendetta drove him into retirement​



What do you suppose that disagreement was about?

I wonder what the topic was that upset the government so much and caused our MND to cover his ears and yell la la la la la la.

I guess we'll never know.
Well he is no longer an appointee and not bound by such an oath. Criminal activities should never be some how obfuscated by an oath.
 

Bruce Monkhouse

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Well he is no longer an appointee and not bound by such an oath. Criminal activities should never be some how obfuscated by an oath.
Whoa there Sunshine.......big leap into 'criminal activities" and oaths can last a lot longer then your term. I'd say most are forever.....ever had a lawyer, don't think the day he stops practice he can spill all your personal info.
 

HiTechComms

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Whoa there Sunshine.......big leap into 'criminal activities" and oaths can last a lot longer then your term. I'd say most are forever.....ever had a lawyer, don't think the day he stops practice he can spill all your personal info.
For Criminal activities? Again I am being specific. Oath to protect a criminal act a bit absurd. Government needs more transparency. Everything should be in public settings. The excuse of national security shouldn't ever be cover for criminal activities.

And people call me paranoid when I don't believe a single iota of what comes out of the government.
 

HiTechComms

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Most such oaths are not bound to a period of employment.
Oaths used to cover up crimes. That is insane. That is literally Fascism. Manifestly illegal activities do not and shouldn't be shielded by an Oath no matter what in a Democratic society.
Again I am very specific. Crimes!
 

lenaitch

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Well he is no longer an appointee and not bound by such an oath. Criminal activities should never be some how obfuscated by an oath.

What criminal activity? Not defending either side here. The problem with government 'ombudspersons' is they seem to seem to be expected to act like other political appointees and shuffle paper that doesn't ruffle feathers. If anything, they should be Officers of Parliament.
 

SupersonicMax

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Oaths used to cover up crimes. That is insane. That is literally Fascism. Manifestly illegal activities do not and shouldn't be shielded by an Oath no matter what in a Democratic society.
Again I am very specific. Crimes!
So, a lawyer should tell the court that their client is guilty, if the client confessed to their lawyer?
 

brihard

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Oaths used to cover up crimes. That is insane. That is literally Fascism. Manifestly illegal activities do not and shouldn't be shielded by an Oath no matter what in a Democratic society.
Again I am very specific. Crimes!
You’re deeply out of your depth, it appears, on the subject of privileged communication. There are many contexts in which this happens- there are privileged enjoyed by medical practitioners, by lawyers, by journalists... What you are essentially saying is that a victim of some sort of official malfeasance or of crime should not have access to helpful resources unless they are willing to have that resource immediately turn around and repeat to police what the victim discloses. That’s utterly out to lunch. Victims are almost never legally obligated to cooperate with an investigation or to report something in the first place. If they don’t want a matter to proceed through criminal or other investigation because of the additional harm to them, that’s generally respected.

Besides that, you’ve introduced the word ‘criminal’ to this when, as of yet, it’s not at all clear nor strongly implied that crime was committed. There can be tremendous abuses of authority that fall short of criminal culpability.

If a victim of something goes forward to an omnudsperson looking for help, the onbudsperson should, in nearly every case, respect that request for confidentiality, subject to the usual exceptions such as harm to children or threatened harm to oneself or to third parties. That is not ‘literally Fascism!’, no matter how twisted your knickers may be over it.
 

HiTechComms

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So, a lawyer should tell the court that their client is guilty, if the client confessed to their lawyer?
No, the ombudsman no matter what oath if they uncovered a crime should report it to Law enforcement but if they are gagged by an elected official from reporting on the crime because think about the OATH you took as an appointee as a threat/deterrent cannot be good in the long run for society.

Again this is hypothetical. If ombudsman discovered a crime that a CAF member committed they shouldn't be blocked by a minister from going to authorities ie RCMP or what ever because this person was high ranking. This literally encourages crimes to be committed by high ranking officials because they cannot be charged ever because of an oath. This is absurd and insane level of thinking.

People are not reading or at least understanding the message.

You are also jumping through some mental hoops here and grasping at straws. FYI an Ombudsman is not a Lawyer and even then a lawyer is not bound not to report a crime committed by their client.

Definition Ombudsman !=Lawyer

A man who investigates complaints and mediates fair settlements, especially between aggrieved parties such as consumers or students and an institution or organization.

A government official, especially in Scandinavian countries, who investigates citizens' complaints against the government or its functionaries.
 

MJP

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Besides that, you’ve introduced the word ‘criminal’ to this when, as of yet, it’s not at all clear nor strongly implied that crime was committed. There can be tremendous abuses of authority that fall short of criminal culpability.
This is something that many folks in the military have a hard time wrapping their head around is that misconduct is not necessarily breaking the law. Now the CSD & NDA have some catch alls but many things are administrative investigations things that would be handled by HR depts. in any other place of business.
 
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