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Georgia and the Russian invasions/annexations/Lebensraum (2008 & 2015)

There are larger issues and they go back to the ethnic cleansing in the former Yugoslav republics of Croatia,Bosnia and Kosovo.NATO/EU/US carved up a sovereign nation Yugoslavia. Today Russia using Nazi Germany rationale for being in S. Ossetia and Abkhazia to protect ethnic Russians. There are also ethnic Russians living on the Crimea and Ukraine and other regions of the former USSR. Using Kosovo and Bosnia as examples they could reinvade any former republic that Putin wants.
 
Today Russia using Nazi Germany rationale for being in S. Ossetia and Abkhazia to protect ethnic Russians.

Ossetians are not ethnic Russians.  They are of Iranian ethnicity and possess a distinct language and culture. 
 
Recce By Death said:
A bit different war....seeing that NATO was given a clear UN mandated mission and clearance.

But I digress...this thread is about Georgia and Russia.

Regards

Russia's peacekeeping role is UN mandated and mandated by a trilateral agreement between all sides. Not much different.
 
stegner said:
Ossetians are not ethnic Russians.  They are of Iranian ethnicity and possess a distinct language and culture. 

Then why did the Russians hand out Russian passports to anyone that wanted one ?
 
oligarch said:
To be dimplomatic on my part, I'll agree with the main idea of your message. However, calling Russia "thuggish" for going to war is a bit old fashioned given that the country we all live in is at war itself.

Going to war does not, in and of itself, make a country thuggish. We have been to war to defeat thugs and aggressors - it is the proper thing to do when international bullies stalk about, throwing out their chests and frightening the children.

It is, in my personal opinion, time we called Putin and Russia what they are: thugs. I think it is the appropriate word. They may be big, even fairly powerful thugs  but we've met and beaten their kind before; we'll do so again.
 
Then why did the Russians hand out Russian passports to anyone that wanted one ?

Because South Ossetians want Russian passports.  Here's an idea.  A well identified provision of international law is the right to self-determination.  If Kosovo can secede from Serbia so can South Ossetia from Georgia.  Wait a minute they already did back in 1991-1992.  Why not let this folks vote on the matter.  Why is the west not promoting that idea?  Primarily, because the West does not like democracy when it does not serve its interests.  I think the fact that a large majority of South Ossetia has Russian passports is indicative of a democratic voice.  Clearly, they do not want to be part of Georgia.  But let's ignore democratic interests when it interferes with US access to oil and gas in the Caucus.     

 
With regard to the oil issue:

A couple of years ago I was invited to sit in on a conference in China – the English sub-title was something like “The Race for Resources.”

The day was interesting: first there were projections (proving to be conservative) of how many cars and how many air conditioners China would have in 2010 and 2020 and so on and then a summary of where the necessary coal and oil and natural gas and, and, and, nearly ad infinitum, was to be found. Everyone in the room agreed that China would be best served by buying as much as it could from Russia and paying for it with income earned by selling the Russians all manner of consumer goods. That which Russia couldn’t supply could be bought from e.g. Canada.

In the hallways, however, there were different conversations. Several people expressed the opinion that Russia is a European power and ought not to be in Asia. Siberia – that treasure trove of resources – is Asian, they said; it should be part of Asia: part of China, to be precise.

I remain convinced that China is Russia’s main natural enemy and that the enmity will intensify in the 21st century. I think that IS bad news for Russia and may be bad news for China, too. But it might be good news for a US led West which seems a bit adrift, strategically, right now.
 
stegner said:
Because South Ossetians want Russian passports.  Here's an idea.   A well identified provision of international law is the right to self-determination.  If Kosovo can secede from Serbia so can South Ossetia from Georgia.  Wait a minute they already did back in 1991-1992.  Why not let this folks vote on the matter.   Why is the west not promoting that idea?  Primarily, because the West does not like democracy when it does not serve its interests.  I think the fact that a large majority of South Ossetia has Russian passports is indicative of a democratic voice.   Clearly, they do not want to be part of Georgia.  But let's ignore democratic interests when it interferes with US access to oil and gas in the Caucus.       

I agree, broadly, with your summary, stegner. As I said earlier, we are no strangers to hypocrisy when our interests are at stake. "Our" (broadly defined our) perceived interests have not proved terribly helpful to the peoples of the Caucasus.
 
Good idea - a vote - should that include all those who lived in that area in 1991 and their descendents... or earlier? That's the trouble with these votes - who should be included - The allied powers ran into this problem in 1919 regarding the messy partition of Silesia and Pomerania.. I believe the same problem was encountered in the Former Yugoslavia - who to include.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
I remain convinced that China is Russia’s main natural enemy and that the enmity will intensify in the 21st century.

Are you talking about the speculated "invasion" of Siberia by China using massive migration of chinese population that would repopulate regions left empty by the demographic crash?
 
Its not speculation the Chinese migration into Siberia is happening. A number of cities along the border have 50% of the population being Chinese.
 
Recce By Death said:
Haggis....didn't you work/ live in Georgia for a while?

Yup.

Still got some Georgian acquaintances that I correspond with occaisonally.  Hope they're OK.  Even so, I don't really have a dog in this fight, but I did see what the Russians left behind the first time they departed Georgia.  This, particularly around Poti, is starting to look familiar.
 
The incongruous said:
Are you talking about the speculated "invasion" of Siberia by China using massive migration of chinese population that would repopulate regions left empty by the demographic crash?

No, as T6 says, that's already happening - see, also, my speculation here. "Facts on the ground" do have weight, however.

I think China might have ambitions in Siberia - maybe from the Urals to the East, certainly from the Yenisey. If Russia decides that China cannot have enough oil then China might feel justified in taking some. Ditto for other resources.

Historically China and Russia have been at odds - China has usually had its way.
 
Recce By Death said:
A bit different war....seeing that NATO was given a clear UN mandated mission and clearance.

But I digress...this thread is about Georgia and Russia.

Regards
He does raise a point, however.  Our actions in Kosovo, which was part of a sovereign nation (Serbia), were not "UN Mandated".  So, Russia could argue, I suppose, that precedence was set.
 
I see the Guardian is still the one and only voice in western media that even allows itself to consider thing from the Russian point of view... sorta


--
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/aug/14/russia.georgia
--
This is a tale of US expansion not Russian aggression

War in the Caucasus is as much the product of an American imperial drive as local conflicts. It's likely to be a taste of things to come
--

The outcome of six grim days of bloodshed in the Caucasus has triggered an outpouring of the most nauseating hypocrisy from western politicians and their captive media. As talking heads thundered against Russian imperialism and brutal disproportionality, US vice-president Dick Cheney, faithfully echoed by Gordon Brown and David Miliband, declared that "Russian aggression must not go unanswered". George Bush denounced Russia for having "invaded a sovereign neighbouring state" and threatening "a democratic government". Such an action, he insisted, "is unacceptable in the 21st century".

Could these by any chance be the leaders of the same governments that in 2003 invaded and occupied - along with Georgia, as luck would have it - the sovereign state of Iraq on a false pretext at the cost of hundreds of thousands of lives? Or even the two governments that blocked a ceasefire in the summer of 2006 as Israel pulverised Lebanon's infrastructure and killed more than a thousand civilians in retaliation for the capture or killing of five soldiers?

You'd be hard put to recall after all the fury over Russian aggression that it was actually Georgia that began the war last Thursday with an all-out attack on South Ossetia to "restore constitutional order" - in other words, rule over an area it has never controlled since the collapse of the Soviet Union. Nor, amid the outrage at Russian bombardments, have there been much more than the briefest references to the atrocities committed by Georgian forces against citizens it claims as its own in South Ossetia's capital Tskhinvali. Several hundred civilians were killed there by Georgian troops last week, along with Russian soldiers operating under a 1990s peace agreement: "I saw a Georgian soldier throw a grenade into a basement full of women and children," one Tskhinvali resident, Saramat Tskhovredov, told reporters on Tuesday.

Might it be because Georgia is what Jim Murphy, Britain's minister for Europe, called a "small beautiful democracy". Well it's certainly small and beautiful, but both the current president, Mikheil Saakashvili, and his predecessor came to power in western-backed coups, the most recent prettified as a "Rose revolution". Saakashvili was then initially rubber-stamped into office with 96% of the vote before establishing what the International Crisis Group recently described as an "increasingly authoritarian" government, violently cracking down on opposition dissent and independent media last November. "Democratic" simply seems to mean "pro-western" in these cases.

The long-running dispute over South Ossetia - as well as Abkhazia, the other contested region of Georgia - is the inevitable consequence of the breakup of the Soviet Union. As in the case of Yugoslavia, minorities who were happy enough to live on either side of an internal boundary that made little difference to their lives feel quite differently when they find themselves on the wrong side of an international state border.

Such problems would be hard enough to settle through negotiation in any circumstances. But add in the tireless US promotion of Georgia as a pro-western, anti-Russian forward base in the region, its efforts to bring Georgia into Nato, the routing of a key Caspian oil pipeline through its territory aimed at weakening Russia's control of energy supplies, and the US-sponsored recognition of the independence of Kosovo - whose status Russia had explicitly linked to that of South Ossetia and Abkhazia - and conflict was only a matter of time.

The CIA has in fact been closely involved in Georgia since the Soviet collapse. But under the Bush administration, Georgia has become a fully fledged US satellite. Georgia's forces are armed and trained by the US and Israel. It has the third-largest military contingent in Iraq - hence the US need to airlift 800 of them back to fight the Russians at the weekend. Saakashvili's links with the neoconservatives in Washington are particularly close: the lobbying firm headed by US Republican candidate John McCain's top foreign policy adviser, Randy Scheunemann, has been paid nearly $900,000 by the Georgian government since 2004.

But underlying the conflict of the past week has also been the Bush administration's wider, explicit determination to enforce US global hegemony and prevent any regional challenge, particularly from a resurgent Russia. That aim was first spelled out when Cheney was defence secretary under Bush's father, but its full impact has only been felt as Russia has begun to recover from the disintegration of the 1990s.

Over the past decade, Nato's relentless eastward expansion has brought the western military alliance hard up against Russia's borders and deep into former Soviet territory. American military bases have spread across eastern Europe and central Asia, as the US has helped install one anti-Russian client government after another through a series of colour-coded revolutions. Now the Bush administration is preparing to site a missile defence system in eastern Europe transparently targeted at Russia.

By any sensible reckoning, this is not a story of Russian aggression, but of US imperial expansion and ever tighter encirclement of Russia by a potentially hostile power. That a stronger Russia has now used the South Ossetian imbroglio to put a check on that expansion should hardly come as a surprise. What is harder to work out is why Saakashvili launched last week's attack and whether he was given any encouragement by his friends in Washington.

If so, it has spectacularly backfired, at savage human cost. And despite Bush's attempts to talk tough yesterday, the war has also exposed the limits of US power in the region. As long as Georgia proper's independence is respected - best protected by opting for neutrality - that should be no bad thing. Unipolar domination of the world has squeezed the space for genuine self-determination and the return of some counterweight has to be welcome. But the process of adjustment also brings huge dangers. If Georgia had been a member of Nato, this week's conflict would have risked a far sharper escalation. That would be even more obvious in the case of Ukraine - which yesterday gave a warning of the potential for future confrontation when its pro-western president threatened to restrict the movement of Russian ships in and out of their Crimean base in Sevastopol. As great power conflict returns, South Ossetia is likely to be only a taste of things to come.
 
Hope this is the right place for this.

Quick little video of a reporter being shot (grazed) by a round while giving a report.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShPxp-oJqX8
 
The Guardian,Ha Ha, I wondered when you would get round to
quoting that Commie rag.Years of calling for the proletariat to rise
up and form a British soviet,apologising for the brutal Soviet policies.
What are you going to produce next as proof positive of Russian
innocence, quotes from Izvestia or Pravda?.Pathetic.
 
To open up an old question: What kind of Chinese?  Core Chinese (Han), or Fringe Chinese (Mongols, Manchus, Uighurs)?  Increased Centrifugal Forces or Decreased Centrifugal Forces?

Moscow and Beijing can't control those steppes.  They may be able to isolate them and deny the inhabitants the opportunity to exploit the resources themselves but I don't believe they can ever control those areas sufficiently to effectively exploit those resources to their benefit.  I just see Afghanistan writ many times over.
 
Mr. Kirkhill,

You forgot the Tibetans/Xi Zang Ren in your post about "fringe Chinese" groups. ;D

BTW, we have not heard much on the naval front in this Russia-Georgia War- I have heard about Russian naval forces encroaching on Georgian waters as well as this line from the following link:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080813/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_russia

In the Black Sea port of Poti, and Georgian television showed boats ablaze in the harbor. Georgia's security chief also said Russian forces targeted three Georgian boats, while Lavrov said Russian troops were nowhere near the city.

And this other report states that the Russian Navy is currently blockading Georgia's coast, IIRC.

http://www.wtop.com/?nid=105&sid=1452890

MOSCOW (AP) - A news agency says the Russian navy has deployed ships to blockade Georgia's Black Sea coast.

The Interfax news agency says the Moskva missile cruiser and other Russian Black Sea Fleet ships have been deployed to Georgia's coast to prevent any weapons supplies.

A Russian navy spokesman refused to comment on the report Sunday.

And yes, Georgia has a navy:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/georgia/navy-equipment.htm
 
You're right CougarD.  One of my many usual oversights.

And please, do me a favour and drop the Mr.  I appreciate the effort a politeness but round about here it seems to be superfluous.  ;)


WRT the Naval aspect I am fascinated as to when the USN last operated in the Black Sea.
 
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