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Georgia and the Russian invasions/annexations/Lebensraum (2008 & 2015)

Thucydides said:
The resurgence of Russian power and the growth of Chinese power are alarming developments for the West (see A Grand Strategy for a divided America), particularly since these are autocratic powers which do not have a history of or respect for the triad of ideas that underpin our civilization: Freedom of expression, Property rights and Rule of Law.

They do have a great deal of respect for power: political, economic and military.

While in the long run there may be a time when China and Russia confront each other over the resources of Siberia, for now they are in an alliance of conveinience against America and the West. They happily provide nuclear fuel to our enemies, support anti western regimes and are now flexing their economic muscles (the cutting of natural gas supplies to the Ukraine and the implicit threat to Western Europe is a pretty blatent example). This is similar to the unholy marriage of conveinience between the Iranians, militant Wahhabi's and secular Ba'athists in the Middle East. Only the Americans can prevent these groups from becoming regional Hegemons, so the Americans have to be defeated first before they can get down to the serious business of killing each other....

The US "Grand Strategy" of building partnerships throughout Asia may take a beating over this incident, but since the US is in the Caucus, the 'Stans and Mongolia, they may still be holding high cards in the game. As an Oceanic Power, the US and the West as a whole does not "need" these areas, but having the ability to shape and broadly influence the region will pay off in the longer term (say +35 years from now after the Russian demographic crash), so maybe we are not taking a broad enough view of things here.

I reiterate my long held position that we have no fundamental dispute with China. It is not and is not going to become a friend but there is no reason to make it into an enemy.

Russia is another matter. Geography and petroleum make it a potential threat. Its own disposition (a cultural predisposition to “thuggishness,” perhaps?) reinforces its threatening potential.

China sees the same (geographic and petroleum) threats from Russia as we should.

With regard to the ‘Stans’: I say let China have ‘em, and good riddance. They are a festering sore, I think, collectively a ’pimple on the prick of progress’ as one of my favourite NCOs used to say about a half century in the past. I’m guessing that the Chinese find them terribly frustrating ‘clients’: expensive, corrupt, even by China’s lax standards, and administratively inept. Thucydides is right, “we” (the West) still have an essentially maritime strategy – a variant of the one Elizabeth I pioneered. We don’t need to ‘hold’ too much ground – especially not in hostile regions like Central Asia.

If China and Russia return, as I am certain they will, to their traditional enmity it cannot be anything but ‘good’ for us – in the near to mid term. But: If, at the end of the process, China acquires large, ‘domestic’ (formerly Russian) oil and natural gas reserves then we would not be quite so happy – unless the ‘petroleum age’ is near its end, anyway.
 
And some more on ethnic cleansing: if you look at the referred-to Human Rights Watch - it is far from being pro-American in regard to the articles posted:

Georgia accuses Russia of 'ethnic cleansing'
MARGARITA ANTIDZE

Reuters

August 15, 2008 at 6:43 AM EDT

TBILISI — Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili appealed to the world to stop what he termed Russia's “barbaric, inhuman, treacherous” occupation, hours before U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice arrives to secure Tbilisi's signature to a French-led peace deal.

Amid reports of looting by militias, Mr. Saakashvili accused Russian troops of “ethnically cleansing” the rebel areas of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. He said Moscow wanted to force Georgia into a humiliation like the one suffered by Czechoslovakia at the hands of the Nazis.

Russia says its actions were fully justified by Georgia's “aggression” in attacking South Ossetia last week and maintains its troops must stay on the ground in Georgia to secure the situation and prevent further conflict.

“I accuse the government of Russia of a deliberate policy of ethnic cleansing,” Mr. Saakashvili said on Thursday night. “We've received 14,000 reports of brutal attacks, slaughter, rapes and internment of people in violation of the rules of the Geneva Convention and international humanitarian law.”



Moscow attacked Georgia with troops, tanks, planes and warships last week after Tbilisi sent a force into South Ossetia to try to take back control over the province, which threw off Georgian control in a war in the 1990s.

Russian troops and armour remained deep inside Georgian territory on Friday, in Moscow's biggest show of force outside its borders since the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991.

The United Nations has expressed alarm at lawlessness in war-torn areas. Witnesses in the area have seen Ossetian militiamen attacking villages and stealing cars.

The United States, a close ally of Georgia, has accused Russia of trying to “punish Georgia for daring to try to integrate with the West” and has threatened serious consequences for years to come unless Moscow steps back.

On Friday, Ms. Rice told reporters on her plane: "We'll try to get this formal ceasefire in place because the goal of this is to get a ceasefire and to get Russian forces to withdraw from the country ASAP".

In a move further souring Russia's ties with Washington, Poland agreed on Thursday to host elements of a U.S. anti- missile system on its land after Washington agreed to base a battery of Patriot missiles there amid the Georgia crisis.

Russia views the plans for an anti-missile system in Eastern Europe as a serious threat to its national security and has promised to respond.

A Moscow Foreign Ministry source on Friday told local agencies that the haste with which Poland and the U.S. agreed the deal “proved” that the system was targeted at Russia.

Diplomatic efforts to end the crisis, which has unnerved oil markets and alarmed the West, continued.

Georgia has yet to formally place its signature on a peace deal brokered this week by France, and Mr. Saakashvili appeared uncertain about it.

“We are still in the negotiating process ... Russians are trying to justify their invasion and to legalize their presence in Georgia,” Mr. Saakashvili told CNN. “I think we should take a closer look at it (the peace agreement).”

German Chancellor Angela Merkel will meet Russian President Dmitry Medvedev in Sochi, near Georgia's border, to urge Russia to embrace diplomacy in its showdown with its small neighbour.

Germany is Russia's biggest trading partner and has historically taken a balanced position towards Moscow, meaning the Kremlin pays close attention to Berlin.

On Friday, Russian tanks and armoured vehicles were again blocking the main entrance to the key Georgian town of Gori, 70 kilometres west of Tbilisi, a Reuters correspondent said.

Russian soldiers relaxing under trees at the Gori checkpoint said looters had been active in the town overnight.

The West is determined to stop the Caucasus sliding further into conflict, not least out of fear for the security of key oil supply routes through the region from the Caspian Sea.

On Thursday, witnesses said Russian tanks had rolled through the Black Sea port of Poti, accompanying trucks with troops to the port area. A large column of Russian troops was seen in the western town of Zugdidi, not far from the second pro-Moscow separatist region of Abkhazia.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy, architect of a three-day old ceasefire, said Mr. Saakashvili's signature to a six-point peace deal would “consolidate” the halt to fighting and lead to the withdrawal of Russian troops.

But Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said: “We can forget about talks on Georgia's territorial integrity because it's impossible to force South Ossetia and Abkhazia to agree that they can be returned into Georgia's fold by force.”

Russia has said the case of Kosovo, a breakaway province of Serbia whose self-proclaimed independence was promptly recognized by major Western powers, creates a legal precedent for Georgia's separatist regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

White House spokeswoman Dana Perino, responding to Mr. Lavrov, said Georgia's territorial integrity was not under debate.

“Georgia's borders have been reaffirmed by numerous Security Council resolutions. So the question of Abkhazia and South Ossetia will be the subject of international negotiations as they have been at the UN Security Council,” she said.

A U.S. human rights group on Friday accused Russia of dropping cluster bombs in populated areas of Georgia during its military offensive that began last week, but Moscow denied the charge.

Human Rights Watch said Russian aircraft had used cluster bombs in two separate raids on the towns of Ruisi and Gori on Tuesday, killing at least 11 civilians and injuring dozens.

Asked about the report, the deputy chief of Russia's General Staff, Colonel-General Anatoly Nogovitsyn, told a news conference: “We never use cluster bombs. There is no need to do so.”

The Gori strike killed at least eight, Human Rights Watch said, including a Dutch cameraman. An Israeli journalist was among the wounded and an armoured vehicle belonging to Reuters news agency was perforated with shrapnel.

The rights watchdog cited interviews with victims, doctors and military personnel, as well as photos of craters and video footage of the Gori attack, to support its assertion that Russia had used cluster bombs.

It said video showed more than two dozen simultaneous explosions during the attack, characteristic of cluster bombs. The munitions contain dozens or hundreds of smaller submunitions or bomblets and explode across a broad area.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080815.wgeorgia0815/BNStory/International/?cid=al_gam_nletter_newsUp

The Human Rights Watch site: http://www.hrw.org/

 
JackD said:
Asked about the report, the deputy chief of Russia's General Staff, Colonel-General Anatoly Nogovitsyn, told a news conference: “We never use cluster bombs. There is no need to do so.”
Of course they don't need cluster bombs.  Not when you have 9P140s!  >:D
 
I agree with Edward to this extent:  One at a time.

We can't take on both Russia and China and it doesn't serve us well to drive the two into each others arms.  Better by far to deal with the greater threat first.

Russia is the most obstreporous of the two and needs to be dealt with first.  The Chinese are more inclined to play a long game and so we can back burner them for a while.  Perhaps their own internal contradictions will bring them around before a confrontation is required.  Or they will end up in Edward's Siberian Conflict.

Russia, on the other hand, seems to be feeling desperate.  And that is a problem.

As to Turkey, Ukraine and Georgia: the last time that those territories were united into one polity the Byzantines and Khazars were the dominant hegemons and they were having to deal with Mohammeds Marauders.  The Vikings had not yet established their outpost at Kiev.

That is one alliance that the Russians would not stand for, and have enough ethnic allies in both Georgia and Ukraine to make it difficult/impossible.
 
Brookings Institute article.

http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/Files/events/2008/0814_georgia/20080814_georgia.pdf
 
Kirkhill said:
I agree with Edward to this extent:  One at a time.

We can't take on both Russia and China and it doesn't serve us well to drive the two into each others arms.  Better by far to deal with the greater threat first.

Forgive me if I disagree. I think it is only a matter of time before the PLA will take Taiwan if somehow the Guo Min Dang  and the CCP will not set aside their schism differences just for the sake of unification and mainly to spite the DPP. ROC President Ma and other Pan-Blue officials like James Song and Lien Chan may be implementing more links with the mainland, but they are no Beijing sycophants. I just don't see any "one country, two systems arrangement" happening to Taiwan as what happened to Hong Kong and Macao.

I do not think that this is a return to the bipolar world of the Cold War;  both Russia and China must be thought of as just major poles within this multipolar world in which the EU and India are also major poles as well to compete with the US/the UK/Canada/Australia (the Anglosphere=one pole).

And are we forgetting the SCO or Shanghai Six Alliance that includes Russia and China?
 
I am not forgetting the SCO - I just happen to see that as a very tenuous marriage of convenience.  Russia and China will agree to co-operate right up until the time that their vital interests are involved.  And in fragile states like both China and Russia, with overlapping territorial interests, I don't believe it takes very long for their vitals to be afffected. They are not robust societies capable of absorbing a lot of stress.

Russia only gets to sell gas to China because of the successful expanionist policies of the Tsars (especially the 19th century ones).  The CPSU merely managed to hang on to what the Tsars one while China was too weak and disinterested.  Now China is at least the equal of Russia, but rising - perhaps too fast, while Russia is on the downhill side of history (demographically).  China is probably better positioned to replace Russia between the Urals and the Pacific, if not the Dnepr, but as alluded to by both Edward and myself, that doesn't guarantee them control of the Steppes.

I don't disagree with your concern for Taiwan, in fact I agree that factions within Beijing might be encouraged by the Georgian adventure to try their luck if the West reacts as pusillanimously as it seems it might.  Unfortunately for Taiwan it isn't as strategically critical as Georgia (IMHO).  On the plus side, because of its maritime accessibility - and the Maritime Capabilities of the Anglosphere described by Thucydides and Edward Taiwain is easier to defend and more likely to be successfully supported simply by a demonstration of Aircraft Carriers.

Beyond that however, I see Taiwan as a Prestige Issue (is "face" the right word" for Beijing, while water, food and fuel are Essentials.  (And in invoking Lazlo's Hierarchy of Needs we might also add Brides as a rising Essential).

My sense is that while China and the Chinese by and large see a bright future and are generally optimistic in the face of their considerable challenges the Russians are contemplating a long dark night.  I fear that their pessimism breeds desperation which makes them more unpredictable.  That is as a nation.  Beyond the Russian nation, you have Thucydides's kleptocracy, who I believe has a much feeling for the Russians as the early Tsars had for the serfs.





 
0.02

Taiwan is a provience of CHina that has been occupied by one side of a civil war for generations - the UN backed that notion years ago, which is why China sits at the UN and Taiwan does not. It is only a matter of time before the gap between Taiwan and China is mostly non existant - with China opening up its economy a little, what will the gov.of taiwan have to offer than china can not provide?I think many Taiwanese, regular taiwanese would be releived to know that the anual exerciss of the storming of Taiwan and Chinese mssle tests will have no reason to continue. Of course this is as China slowly gains a little more acceptance in the west.

NATO is outside it's home ground a bit, if not for Turkey the legitimacy of action in Iraq would be much less. Afghanistan is very much removed from the NATO close sphere. Georgia of course borders both Turkey and Russia.


The conflict is winding down... ---- butI am very much saddened by how heavy the propaganda rolled out.
 
A further look at Russian motivations. As has been pointed out by myself and others, Russia might have the military muscle and the threat of nuclear and petro dollar blackmail to maintain its grip for a while, but the dysfunctional nature of the kleptocracy in the short to medium term will provide economic limits to how far Russia can really go (and also provides a lever to use against Russia, if we choose to implement aggressive measures against money laundering and limit investment into corrupt Russian enterprises). Edward has pointed out we have several diplomatic levers, and in the long run, the demographic crash will eliminate Russia as a Great Power (and it will take generations to recover, if that is even possible. No nation in history has ever gone into such steep decline. We should not be smug; Canada and the EU are also in sinking demographic boats...)

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htwin/articles/20080815.aspx

The Empire Struggles Back

August 15, 2008: The Russian empire is being rebuilt. The Russian people demand it. Russian politicians are using this popular attitude to placate the people, and distract them from the fact that Russia is turning into a dictatorship. And so Russia is pressuring its neighbors to do what they are told by Moscow. In support of this, the Russian government has re-established control over key industries, as well as all the major mass media.

While the 1917 revolution destroyed the ancient Russian monarchy and simultaneously rejected democracy and the market economy, the 1917 revolution didn't work. The overbearing and inept czarist aristocracy eventually returned in the form of overbearing and inept Communist Party officials and state-appointed industrial managers. The second revolution in 1991 was less bloody than that of 1917, but the huge Communist bureaucracy was not dismissed, only reduced.

Unlike the 1917 revolution, 1991 one saw the dismemberment of the czarist empire, something even the 1917 Reds were not willing to tolerate. Territories that had been Russia's for centuries, like Ukraine and Belarus, plus others that had only been conquered in the 19th century (Central Asia and the Caucasus), were suddenly independent once more.

But not completely free. The Russians called their new neighbors the "Near Abroad" and treated them more like prodigal children than sovereign nations. In the early 1990s, the Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS) was formed by Russia. The CIS was sort of a successor of the Soviet Union. But after he 1990s, the CIS began to fall apart. Some members, especially Armenia, Ukraine, Georgia and Turkmenistan, drifted away. Or at least tried to. Apparently you could join the CIS, but not leave it.

The New Russia of the 1990s faced serious economic and political problems internally, as well as unrest on its new borders with these new neighbors. Russia sought to solve all these problems to its advantage, Thus the Near Abroad nations are increasingly hostile to Russian interference. During all this, Russians grew increasingly nostalgic for the old empire. Russian politicians played on this by talking of rebuilding the empire.

There were other considerations. For over a thousand years, Russians have lived in fear of invasion. Thus it has always been popular to absorb or subdue neighbors, to provide a buffer zone between the core Russian (mainly Slavic) territories, and potential invaders. The Golden Age was the post World War II period, when Russia still had all the czarist conquests, while Eastern Europe, Mongolia and North Korea were run by communist governments that were basically satellites of Russia. Memory here has been selective. The empire was expensive, in terms of cash, diplomatic ill-will and poor public relations. But only the good things are now remembered, which is how nationalistic memories usually work.

Ironically, the Russian military industries were saved in the last decade by India and China. These two nations kept Russian weapons manufacturers alive with large orders. More importantly, the booming economies in China and India drove up the price of oil, of which Russia is a major exporter. The billions in oil wealth propped up the Russian economy and allowed the armed forces to be rebuilt. Now Russia talks openly of reclaiming its status as a superpower and dictating the fate of its neighbors. But Russia remains a second rate military power, with a second rate arms industry and a collection of very hostile, and fearful, neighbors.

The war in Georgia comes on the heels of threats (of violence) made to Ukraine. Before that, Russia cut off energy supplies to Ukraine to show who was really in charge. Russia makes more threats to the Baltic States and East European countries over membership in NATO and the construction of a U.S. anti-missile system. The bear is back in a fighting mood, and the world wonders how far this reassertion of empire will go.

Western Europe is paralyzed by fear of losing a quarter of its natural gas supplies. When Russia set up those gas pipelines during the Cold War, somber pledges were made that gas deliveries would never be used for political purposes. After seeing what happened to Ukraine, and other East European customers, no one can be sure anymore. After Georgia, no one can feel safe from Russian violence anymore either.
 
What happened to the Ukraine with the gas supplies. They started being normalized with global gas prices rather than giving them gas for a fraction of the world market cost? Then those who had to pay the actual free market rates started whining..
 
A 1995 Russian strategy to ally with Iraq, Iran and Algeria?
Iraq stabilizing?
Russia in Georgia?
Tehran playing for time with Russian help?
EU and the US upping the ante against Tehran?
US topping up the strategic oil reserve?
Israel practicing long range air missions?
US/UK/Fr gathering naval forces at the Straits of Hormuz (Roosevelt, Reagan and Lincoln, Peleliu, Iwo Jima and Ark Royal with Roosevelt carrying French Fighters)?
US pushing naval forces into the Baltic to aid Georgia?


TIMMERMAN: Global strategy harbinger?

Friday, August 15, 2008

…A 1995 Russian national security memo, obtained by Rep. Curt Weldon, Pennsylvania Republican, who had it translated by the CIA, identifies the United States as "the main external force potentially capable of creating a threat to the Russian Federation military security and to Russia's economic and political interests."
The memo, written by a top adviser to the Russian defense minister and stamped "approved" by the defense minister's office, sketches out a new Russian policy to contain the United States in the Persian Gulf. "And in case Russia is persistently driven into a corner, then it will be possible to undertake to sell military nuclear and missile technologies to such countries as Iran and Iraq, and to Algeria after Islamic forces arrive in power there," the memo states.
"Moreover, Russia's direct military alliance with some of the countries mentioned also should not be excluded, above all with Iran, within the framework of which a Russian troop contingent and tactical nuclear weapons could be stationed on the shores of the Persian Gulf and the Strait of Hormuz."
Just idle talk? Consider the following facts:
c Just one month after he was briefed on this memo, Defense Minister Pavel Grachev went to Iran to discuss military cooperation. His visit paved the way for a sweeping 10-year cooperation agreement the two countries signed Dec. 28, 1995.
c Two months after the briefing, Russia began shipping to Iraq gyroscopes scavenged from dismantled SS-18 strategic nuclear missiles.
c Within four months of the briefing, the Russian government authorized Russian missile experts to travel to Iran, to work on jointly developing a new generation of nuclear missiles for Iran. Those missiles became the Shahab-3, which Iran parades about the streets of Tehran with signs in English that read "Israel will be wiped off the map." ..

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2008/aug/15/global-strategy-harbinger/

By: Richard the First
Lets see now, we have Russia’ incursion Georgia’ South Ossetia Provence as well as Russian war ships along their Black Sea coast. We have Iran’ continued threats to wipe Israeli off the face of the map. The Israeli air force makes a 1,500 mile fly over of the Mediterranean Sea in June and the US has its strategic oil reserves at 92+ % and is expanding its capacity. This does not give one a warm fuzzy feeling.

August 15, 2008 at 1:03 p.m.  | (From the comments on the above article)

Is war in air in the Gulf?
Claude Salhani UNITED PRESS INTERNATIONAL
Thursday, August 14, 2008

No sooner was there an end to Operation Brimstone - a joint U.S., British and French naval megaexercise held in the Atlantic Ocean, where the allies practiced enforcing an eventual blockade on Iran - than, according to numerous reports, the armada set sail for Gulf waters and a potential showdown with Iran.
The move came shortly after the European Union issued a decree Friday authorizing the imposition of stronger sanctions against Iran, on top of existing U.N. Security Council sanctions, over its refusal to back down from its controversial nuclear program.
Leading the joint naval task force is the nuclear-powered carrier the USS Theodore Roosevelt and its Carrier Strike Group 2. In addition to the 80-plus warplanes the Roosevelt normally transports, it is carrying an additional load of Rafale fighter jets from the French carrier Charles de Gaulle, currently in dry dock.
Also reportedly heading toward Iran are another nuclear-powered carrier, the USS Ronald Reagan, and its Carrier Strike Group 7; the USS Iwo Jima; the Royal Navy aircraft carrier HMS Ark Royal; and a number of French warships, including the nuclear hunter-killer submarine Amethyste.
Once on site, the joint naval force in the Persian Gulf region will be joining two other U.S. battle groups already in position: the USS Abraham Lincoln and the USS Peleliu, the Lincoln with its carrier strike group and the latter with an expeditionary strike group.
Meanwhile, Tehran seems undeterred,….

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2008/aug/14/is-war-in-air-in-the-gulf/

And then there is this:  A bit of light comic relief to remind everybody that Canada actually DOES have a dog in this fight.  Its outcome matters to us.

Canada's front line for Arctic sovereignty is a lone research vessel in Beaufort Sea
 
Randy Boswell and Andrew Mayeda
Canwest News Service
Friday, August 15, 2008

Next week, in the remote Beaufort Sea 400 kilometres north of the Yukon-Alaska border, a team of Canadian government scientists aboard the Coast Guard icebreaker Louis S. St-Laurent will embark on this country's latest assertion of sovereignty in the Arctic.

For 42 days, the ship will mow through the ocean, running back and forth as a raft of pricey instruments being towed behind scans the sea floor to create a profile of its composition and contours. The intent is to demonstrate, under the terms of a UN treaty, that Canada's offshore boundaries should be extended beyond the traditional 370-kilometre coastal economic zone to include "natural prolongations" of our continental shelf -- in the Beaufort Sea and north of Ellesmere Island.

http://www.canada.com/components/print.aspx?id=b77810f5-8976-4c24-b3a5-1ca5c3db70de&sponsor=


 
And there is this from "that commie rag" the Guardian ;D

Turkey delivered a humiliating snub to Iran's visiting president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, yesterday by backing out of a lucrative energy deal under pressure from the US government, which feared it would enhance Iranian nuclear ambitions.

Signing the £1.87bn agreement to provide Turkey with Iranian natural gas - on which memoranda of understanding had already been agreed - was to have been the crowning achievement of Ahmadinejad's two-day visit to Istanbul, which Turkish officials had agreed to after intense Iranian lobbying. Iran is Turkey's second-biggest energy supplier after Russia and has been seeking to woo Turkish investment in its South Pars gas fields.

But as Ahmadinejad met his Turkish counterpart, Abdullah Gül, at Ciragan Palace in Istanbul, it emerged that US intervention had effectively torpedoed a deal.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/15/turkey.iran

That puts a crimp in the Iranian Plan -and the Putin-Kazakh connection.

This is all getting more and more interesting.  Has Putin overplayed his hand?  How do you believe a Professional Liar (KGB Agent)?

 
Dang... so much for all that Hearts and Minds training.

Russian soldiers rob Georgian bank:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1563317.ece
 
The Russians have let their Chechens and the Vostok battalion run loose as well as the irregulars of the Ossetian paramilitary troops.

610xrf6.jpg


610xpq8.jpg

Detained ethnic Georgians sit in a truck with coffins as they are made to collect the bodies of dead Georgians soldiers in the South Ossetian capital of Tshinvali August 15, 2008.

 
The scenes displayed and activities shown are very much like those I am reading about as i deal with translations of the German and early Russian occupation of Poland. Mankind hasn't changed much.

The Russian government seems to play international brinkmanship games, but their investment in Russia - especially in Siberia doesn't seem to be much - air corridors, two national railroad links - only one recently completed, no national highway linkage east probably no fiber-optic network, no new mine development - and certainly no concept of pollution control: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2512697.stm , http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3007228.stm; http://artsonearth.com/2008/08/40-most-dangerous-roads-in-world.html

By the way, is Canada still subsidizing the heating costs for Siberian cities? Are the Americans still payingRussians to guard their nuclear weapons? Are the Americans still paying the salaries of the Russian nuclear scientists?
 
I would hope that after this the Canadian Government seriously reconsiders leasing any Russian helicopters.  A message needs to be sent to Russia and IMHO it would be inappropriate to be signing deals with them now to purchase military equipment.
 
Some more on the accusations of genocide:
Mythmaking in Moscow
Georgia wasn't committing 'genocide,' and the Russians aren't keeping the peace.


Saturday, August 16, 2008; A14



THE EVENTS of the past week in the small Caucasus republic of Georgia will prompt animated debates about Russia and U.S.-Russian relations. We view the events as confirmation of the dangerous challenge posed by an authoritarian regime unwilling to recognize the sovereignty of its former imperial possessions. Many will take issue with our interpretation, and that is as it should be. But the debate should be based on facts. Instead, assertions of the Russian leadership that have proved contrary to fact continue to circulate. For example:


· Georgia committed genocide against the people of South Ossetia. This charge was initially leveled by Prime Minister Vladimir Putin and has been taken up by others, including President Dmitry Medvedev, who on Thursday came up with the interesting formulation that South Ossetians "had lived through a genocide." Mr. Medvedev has referred to "thousands" killed, and Russian officials frequently have cited 2,000 South Ossetians killed (out of a population of 70,000). They have said Georgia razed the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali. These purported depredations are given as the main motivation for Russian military intervention.

A researcher for Human Rights Watch who visited Tskhinvali reported as follows: "A doctor at Tskhinvali Regional Hospital who was on duty from the afternoon of August 7 told Human Rights Watch that between August 6 to 12 the hospital treated 273 wounded, both military and civilians. . . . The doctor also said that 44 bodies had been brought to the hospital since the fighting began, of both military and civilians. The figure reflects only those killed in the city of Tskhinvali. But the doctor was adamant that the majority of people killed in the city had been brought to the hospital before being buried, because the city morgue was not functioning due to the lack of electricity in the city."

Independent journalists back up the account provided by Human Rights Watch. The Wall Street Journal, for example, yesterday reported finding Tskhinvali, where most of the fighting took place, mostly intact and with "little evidence of a high death toll."


· Russians in Georgia are "peacekeepers" on a humanitarian mission to protect civilians. This formulation has alternated with repeated Russian statements, repeatedly disproved, that Russian forces were not in Georgia at all, or were leaving, or were about to leave. In fact, journalists, human rights observers and others have documented that Russian troops have ranged far into Georgia, including the city of Gori and the port of Poti. They have razed, mined and looted Georgian army bases and destroyed civilian houses and apartment buildings.

Militia forces under Russian control include South Ossetians and others brought in from Russia itself -- what Deputy Assistant Secretary of State Matthew Bryza described as "the North Caucasus irregular forces that the Russian military inexplicably encouraged to enter South Ossetia to murder, rape and steal." They have attacked civilians in Gori and engaged in ethnic cleansing of Georgian-populated villages in South Ossetia. Remarkably, the Russian-allied "president" of South Ossetia acknowledged the ethnic cleansing yesterday in an interview with the Russian newspaper Kommersant, although he did not acknowledge the killings of Georgian civilians that others have documented. Eduard Kokoity said that his forces "offered them a corridor and gave the peaceful population the chance to leave" and that "we do not intend to allow" their return.

A war crime, yes; but at least he was honest about it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/15/AR2008081503319_pf.html



 
JackD said:
Georgia wasn't committing 'genocide,'

Ok what would you call mass murder of an ethnic population , while forcing more than 50% of the population of a fairly large region to flee their homes? With about 60% of the population directly effected, and no signs showing that the process would stop without intervention?
 
PS here is a slightly unbiased report from yesterday - although the body count is very much unsubstantiated, however bearing the populations of the border villages razed by Georgia you would think the number to be more than 45. For that mater the bear minimum is 45 with Russia's estimate being 1500 - bearing that you would expect that number not to be greater. You would hope that number not to be greater.

http://www.businessweek.com/blogs/russia_oil_politics/archives/2008/08/the_genocide_in.html

 
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