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Georgia and the Russian invasions/annexations/Lebensraum (2008 & 2015)

uncle-midget-boyd said:
Here's downtown Grozny, by the way.
Grozny.jpg
And here's downtown Caen after we got done with it.
caen2.jpg


Meanwhile in Georgia:
Russian jets resume air strikes within Georgia
"Swarms of Russian jets launched new raids on Georgian territory Monday and Georgia faced the threat of a second front of fighting as Russia demanded that Georgia disarm troops near the breakaway province of Abkhazia.
While a senior Russian general insisted that Russia has no plans to press further into Georgian territory - its troops are now in two breakaway provinces - the order to disarm carried the threat that Russian-sponsored fighting would spread."
 
oligarch,
Every one of your "proofs" were according to Russian officials.

By the way, I've visited your school site [among others], you are far from objective on any matter pertaining to Russia.
I think what is pissing me off is your wording of "your media" whilst you attend one of our finer educational institutions.............maybe its just me though.
 
Whats new here? Russia's best diplomatic weapon has always been
the tank, East Germany 57,Hungary,Czechoslovakia,Afghanistan,Chechnya.
But it seems that they have discovered a new one, energy,they have
already cowed most of Western Europe with this new weapon and to
insure their continued energy domination, Tsar Putin has decided to
use his old favorite weapon, the tank.This will insure that no gas or
oil will get to Europe without the say so of Gaspron.
 How soon we all forget.
                                 Regards
 
This may be the limit of direct US military support.

US begins flying Georgian troops home from Iraq
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/10/AR2008081000920.html
By KIM GAMEL The Associated Press Sunday, August 10, 2008; 12:48 PM

BAGHDAD -- The U.S. military began flying 2,000 Georgian troops home from Iraq on Sunday, military officials said, after the Georgians recalled the soldiers following the outbreak of fighting with Russia in the breakaway province of South Ossetia.

The decision was a timely payback for the former Soviet republic that has been a staunch U.S. supporter and agreed to send troops to Iraq as part of the U.S.-led coalition.

Georgia was the third-largest contributor of coalition forces after the U.S. and Britain, and most of its troops were stationed near the Iranian border in southeastern Iraq.

The U.S. military has played down concerns about the redeployment, saying it may have "some impact" in the near term but no significant long-term effect on Iraq's security.

"We want to thank them for the great support they've given the coalition and we wish them well," military spokesman Rear Adm. Patrick Driscoll said earlier Sunday at a news conference.

Georgia, which borders the Black Sea between Turkey and Russia, had asked the U.S. military on Friday to provide transportation.

"We are supporting the Georgian military units that are in Iraq in their redeployment to Georgia so that they can support requirements there during the current security situation," said Col. Jerry O'Hara, another military spokesman in Baghdad. "Flights have in fact begun today and Georgian forces are redeploying."

He declined to disclose flight details. But another senior U.S. official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he wasn't authorized to release the information, said the military would fly the troops back "to the republic of Georgia.

The officials also said American units had been shuffled in their area of responsibility to compensate for the departure of the Georgians.

O'Hara said that even though the loss of forces was unexpected, "we can and are accommodating the changes."

Most Georgian troops moved last year from the relatively safe Green Zone in Baghdad to an area southeast of the capital to help interdict supplies allegedly being smuggled to Shiite extremists from Iran. More than 100 remained in Baghdad to help secure the Green Zone.

At least five Georgians soldiers have died in Iraq since the U.S.-led invasion in 2003.

Some Iraqis welcomed the Georgian withdrawal, saying they're tired of the presence of U.S-led foreign troops.

"God willing, not only the Georgian forces will withdraw but all other troops will leave our country and security and stability will come back to our land," Baghdad resident Ghada Adnan told Associated Press Television News.

Georgia, whose troops have been trained by American soldiers, began an offensive to regain control over South Ossetia overnight Friday, launching heavy rocket and artillery fire and air strikes.

In response, Russia, which has granted passports to most South Ossetians, began overwhelming bombing and shelling attacks against Georgia and Georgian troops.


 
Blackadder1916 said:
This may be the limit of direct US military support.

US begins flying Georgian troops home from Iraq
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/10/AR2008081000920.html  

Given that the US will be providing an aerial autobahn to deploy troops AND their equipment will probably, IMHO, be considered an extremely hostile act by the russians.  Troops going home is one thing BUT, in this case, I imagine that all their figthting and support vehicles will be accompanying.  That makes an additional Brigade (minus) available to the Georgian government.  Not much when facing the might of the Russian federation BUT, enough to get their dander up.  I just hope the russians don't decide to shoot anything down - create escalation beyond what's already happened.
 
Russian Response to US transporting Georgians from Iraq back to Georgia

Russia-US tensions overshadow conflict peace bid


TBILISI (AFP) — Heightened US-Russian friction over Georgia overshadowed progress in a European peace drive Monday despite Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili signing up to an EU peace deal.

After US President George W. Bush said he had told Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin that the violence in Georgia was unacceptable, Putin accused the United States of trying to undermine Russia's operation by transporting Georgian troops from Iraq into the conflict zone, said Putin.
 
One of the aspects of interest in this conflict is the American government response - it seems they were caught flatfooted  (please note: I say it seems - as of course I am not privy to inside information). If so,  this would be another failure of the CIA or in liaising with the CIA - whose role is to inform and predict long term and short term events... Even the government's reaction is strange - President Bush is still in Peking - yet they do have Marine instructors in the conflict zone.... The wider implications of this conflict are in my view, that the uselessness of the United Nations is apparent (in the first place, how did Russian Forces - obviously not neutral - become designated a peacekeeping force which is supposed to be neutral). The muted response by members of NATO is also evident that this organization is tattered as well. It's August.. August and September are months of ill fortune when it comes to international diplomacy... Would anyone care to comment?
 
The Russians have captured Gori and a Georgian military base.Gori is 40 miles from Tbilisi and the Russians seem intent on driving to Tblisi and ousting the government. This operation seems well planned and executed.The so called peacekeeping force rebuilt a vital railway that enabled the Russian invasion.
 
COMPARISON TABLE (before the conflict, of course)

GEORGIA:

Total personnel: 26,900
Main battle tanks (T-72): 82
Armoured personnel carriers: 139
Combat aircraft (Su-25): Seven
Heavy artillery pieces (including Grad rocket launchers): 95

RUSSIA:

Total personnel: 641,000
Main battle tanks (various): 6,717
Armoured personnel carriers: 6,388
Combat aircraft (various): 1,206
Heavy artillery pieces (various): 7,550

Source: Jane's Sentinel Country Risk Assessments

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7552012.stm

Does this seem familiar?
 
tomahawk6 said:
The Russians have captured Gori and a Georgian military base.Gori is 40 miles from Tbilisi and the Russians seem intent on driving to Tblisi and ousting the government. This operation seems well planned and executed.The so called peacekeeping force rebuilt a vital railway that enabled the Russian invasion.

The Russians are already there!  The Vaziani garrison, 18 km from Tbilisi, has had Russian peacekeepers as next-door neighbours for many years.  Vaziani has an airfield and several training facilities large enough for a battalion.
 
I dont know about that except the Russians claim to have withdrawn all froces from Georgia in Nov of last year.Essentially they withdrew to S.Ossetia and Abkhazia.

Pullout confirmed

Early on Thursday, General Alexei Maslov, a top Russian military official, confirmed that Russia was pulling out its troops from Georgia.

"There are no more Russian troops in Georgia, there remain only peacekeepers ... in Abkhazia, and those that are part of the combined forces in South Ossetia with the participation of Georgia," the RIA-Novosti quoted him as saying.

Maslov's aide, Colonel Igor Konashenkov, said the final convoy of troops and equipment based in Batumi in southwest Georgia had already crossed into Armenia to set up base in the northern town of Gyumri.

Russia pulled out its troops from the Akhalkalaki base in June following increased scrutiny and criticism of its activities in Georgia.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2006/11/mil-061123-rianovosti01.htm

Second trainload of equipment leaves Russian garrison in Georgia
RIA Novosti

23/11/2006 12:57 TBILISI, November 23 (RIA Novosti) - A second trainload of equipment and ammunition left a Russian garrison outside the Georgian capital, Tbilisi, on Thursday, in keeping with Russia's commitment to withdraw from its military bases in the post-Soviet Caucasus state by the end of 2008.

Russia's South Caucasus Command said the train set off from the suburb of Vaziani at 5 a.m., and is heading for Russia through Azerbaijan.

The Vaziani garrison will be pulled out before the end of the year, ahead of the earliest of the withdrawal deadlines for Russian forces in the South Caucasus state, set for 2007. The defense minister decided on an early pullout in mid-October, amid a diplomatic feud between the former Soviet allies.

The Vaziani base had about a hundred items of equipment and 350 metric tons of ammunition before the first consignment was withdrawn a week ago for redeployment to a base in neighboring Armenia.
 
Blackadder1916 said:
This may be the limit of direct US military support.

US begins flying Georgian troops home from Iraq
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/10/AR2008081000920.html  

Shoot them down!

With regard to another poster, I think it already got answered by another individual with an example from Cayen. The other individual who talked about my 'school site', i'm not quite sure what he meant. Pictures of downtown Tsihinvali are pictures of downtown tshinivali, regardless of where they came from, Russia or the much more objective BBC, or even CNN, which got called out even by the Russian media for mixing up footage from Tshinivali and presenting it as footage from Gori. Even BBC confirmed 1400 deaths. And Michel Chousudovsky is CANADIAN. Besides, the shelling of Ossetia I've watched on television live all evening untill about 3am when I went to sleep, and Russia entered the war only by the time I woke up the next day. With regards to 'your media', I'm sorry for the wording. I didn't know army folk would be so darn sensitive.
 
T6:  to my knowledge (which I'll freely admit is dated), the Russians never completely left thier garrison near Vaziani.
 
oligarch said:
Shoot them down!

How Friggin Patriotic of you.  What are you anyway?  Your profile is empty.  You profess to have knowledge, yet don't provide "links" or proof of.  Are we to assume that you are some juvenile Troll come here to bait people and have your "jollies"?  If so, kindly leave.  If not, kindly fill in something in your profile so as to give yourself some credibility.  Right now it is sadly lacking.
 
Haggis said:
The Russians are already there!  The Vaziani garrison, 18 km from Tbilisi, has had Russian peacekeepers as next-door neighbours for many years.  Vaziani has an airfield and several training facilities large enough for a battalion.

Haggis said:
T6:  to my knowledge (which I'll freely admit is dated), the Russians never completely left thier garrison near Vaziani.

If you believe the BBC, Russians left the Tbilisi HQ just before Xmas 2006.  When it comes to Vaziani (Google map), though, can't find OS sources (yet) definitively showing Russians left or Russians still there.  A few weeks ago, Ex IMMEDIATE RESPONSE 2008 happened there, and I can't find any public or official reference to Russian troops being on the base.  I'm guessing if there were Russian troops there:
1)  MSM would have mentioned that, or
2)  the ex may not have happened there because of possible issues.

However, there's always been more than just a few Russian "peacekeepers" (including, according to public reports, paratroopers with BMD-2s) were among the additional troops in Abkhazia.

Also, FYI, here's a good month-by-month summary of political/security happenings in Georgia, courtesy of the International Crisis Group.

Edit Update: According to the Arms Control Today (September 2001), Russia reportedly "officially handed over control of a Russian military base in Vaziani, Georgia, to Tbilisi on June 29."  According to Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (2 Mar 2004), "In Georgia, Russia has already withdrawn from two bases at Vaziani and Gudauta."  More recently, according to Voice of America said, "Experts say another irritant for Russia is the fact that Georgian and U.S. troops are conducting (Ex IMMEDIATE RESPONSE) at the Vaziani training area outside of Tbilisi," without mentioning the presence of any Russian troops on the base.

- edited to add more references -
 
oligarch said:
Shoot them down!

Nice...blatant trolling.

With regards to 'your media', I'm sorry for the wording. I didn't know army folk would be so darn sensitive.

Seeing as you're posting from Toronto, it's your media as well.

If you have an axe to grind here....leave before you are shown the door.

If not, suck back and re-think your approach.

The Army.ca Staff
 
oligarch said:
Shoot them down!

I must admit that I brought up the subject as a possibility of Russian reaction to US transport assistance for Georgian troops changing TOs.

Oligarch just latched onto it......
 
geo said:
I must admit that I brought up the subject as a possibility of Russian reaction to US transport assistance for Georgian troops changing TOs.

Well called - while you're just raising the possibility of one view of the situation.....

geo said:
Oligarch just latched onto it......

....and used it to troll.
 
milnewstbay said:
If you believe the BBC, Russians left the Tbilisi HQ just before Xmas 2006.  When it comes to Vaziani (Google map), though, can't find OS sources (yet) definitively showing Russians left or Russians still there.  A few weeks ago, Ex IMMEDIATE RESPONSE 2008 happened there, and I can't find any public or official reference to Russian troops being on the base.  I'm guessing if there were Russian troops there:
1)  MSM would have mentioned that, or
2)  the ex may not have happened there because of possible issues.

NATO held a large, multinational exercise at Vaziani in 2002 in full view of and to the great consternation of the Russians. 

milnewstbay said:
Edit Update: According to the Arms Control Today (September 2001), Russia reportedly "officially handed over control of a Russian military base in Vaziani, Georgia, to Tbilisi on June 29."  According to Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (2 Mar 2004), "In Georgia, Russia has already withdrawn from two bases at Vaziani and Gudauta."   More recently, according to Voice of America said, "Experts say another irritant for Russia is the fact that Georgian and U.S. troops are conducting (Ex IMMEDIATE RESPONSE) at the Vaziani training area outside of Tbilisi," without mentioning the presence of any Russian troops on the base.

I'm referring to two separate areas, as described below.  I'll post the Google Earth coordinates of the Vaziani garrison when I get home.

In September 2001, Russia did hand over a large part of the Vaziani base to Georgia, but not all of it.  Just outside the main base complex was a heavily guarded, concrete walled separate complex which housed, IIRC, a Russian peacekeeipng transport/logisitics unit.  Georgia controlled the general Vaziani garrison site, a former fighter base with ranges, barracks and other accomodations refurbished with US/Turk assistance and an adjacent refugee camp known as Vaziani City.
 
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