Germany & France to jointly develop Main Ground Combat System (MGCS) - AKA "Leopard 3"

[a_majoor]

It would be interesting to contemplate the various new threats to tanks, ranging from distributed sensor systems to various forms of top attack munitions, as well as the ever increasing potency of "conventional" weapons, and work out what a new tank design would need based on the ability to counter these threats while still being able to deliver a punch on the modern battlefield.

I'm starting to think that developments in self seeking, long range munitions might convert the tank to a form of better protected self propelled artillery (rounds like LAHAT or the Korean KSTAM allow tanks to attack targets from 13 and 8km away respectively), and advanced communications and networking will also work in favour of the tanks, especially if the tank troop and squadron (platoon and company) can collaberate with dispersed sensors and tanks that are normally out of the fight due to terrain or distance can add fire with their NLOS munitions.

This is a consideration since "more of the same"  is increasingly costly (A Korean K-2 tank is supposed to cost $8.8 million dollars a unit). Making tanks more versatile and more deadly might be the key to making them relevant farther in the future.

 

[daftandbarmy]

It would be interesting to contemplate the various new threats to tanks, ranging from distributed sensor systems to various forms of top attack munitions, as well as the ever increasing potency of "conventional" weapons, and work out what a new tank design would need based on the ability to counter these threats while still being able to deliver a punch on the modern battlefield.

I'm starting to think that developments in self seeking, long range munitions might convert the tank to a form of better protected self propelled artillery (rounds like LAHAT or the Korean KSTAM allow tanks to attack targets from 13 and 8km away respectively), and advanced communications and networking will also work in favour of the tanks, especially if the tank troop and squadron (platoon and company) can collaberate with dispersed sensors and tanks that are normally out of the fight due to terrain or distance can add fire with their NLOS munitions.

This is a consideration since "more of the same"  is increasingly costly (A Korean K-2 tank is supposed to cost $8.8 million dollars a unit). Making tanks more versatile and more deadly might be the key to making them relevant farther in the future.

How about 2000 armed drones at a cost of about $50,000 each instead?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Collaboration on what works and what didn't is great. A frank assessment of the political and industrial landscape is required. Is the UK ever going to build another MBT? Can it accept politically that if not, then it must buy from the Germans, French or the US? Without a realistic domestic assessment, then anything beyond lessons learned will fail.
 

 

[a_majoor]

How about 2000 armed drones at a cost of about $50,000 each instead?

For this generation that is actually artillery rather than a substitute for tanks, but increasing powers of computer algorithms, technical advances in the art of building drones and increases in their capabilities (and adding in other related technological factors and changes in doctrine, TTP's etc.) might make that the replacement for tanks in the next generation. Or something even more "out of the box" might come along.

 

[tomahawk6]

Its a nice looking design.But in the interim the Leo will be upgraded in stages.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/get-ready-russia-european-power-has-plans-lethal-new-tank-15251

The first step will be to upgrade the Leopard 2 with a new digital turret core system, new situational awareness system and an Active Defense System (ADS).

The tank will also need a new high-pressure 120mm cannon and new ammunition. Papperger expects that the new gun and ammunition will yield twenty percent better performance than the current L55 120mm cannon. However, it’s not clear how much further the weapon can be extended. There are significant drawbacks to a longer cannon—which is one of the reasons the U.S. Army retains the shorter L44 120mm cannon for its Abrams. It’s possible that Rheinmetall is using new materials to increase the pressure within the cannon without increasing the cannon’s length.

 

[CougarKing]

EDITED TO ADD: Thanks to the mods for the thread merge!

 

[tomahawk6]

The trick for the Europeans is to be able to build enough tanks for a decent price.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The US can muddy the waters by offering a Euroized Abrams, with MTU engine, BV, different comms system and generally mimic Euro traits which require minimal changes, change the name to something more acceptable to the Euro's

 

[tomahawk6]

The next generation MBT needs to offer the same if not better features than the Armada MBT.Maybe a tank that floats on an air cushion?

 

[McG]

I know a guy with experience on that.

 

[MilEME09]

hopefully it get's designed with ATGM capabilities off the bat, the question also is 120mm main gun or with a new generation of Russian, and Chinese MBT's will the Europeans use this as a an arms race and perhaps up gun to a 140mm that they experimented with on the Leopard 2.

 

[tomahawk6]

What about a gun/launcher ? The Armata is said to have such a gun.The last time the US tried the gun/launcher was on the Sheridan airborne tank.It had a 152mm gun/launcher but had problems with the 152mm combustible case ammunition.

 

[NavyShooter]

I think the key aspect that's to be on the Armata that's not on allied force AFV's is the active protection system.  I believe the Merkava has something, but I suspect that adding something like the ASPRO-A as an integral fit, rather than an aftermarket fit would be a necessary piece of the puzzle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trophy_(countermeasure)

(Forgive the wikipedia....)

NS

 

[GR66]

I think the key aspect that's to be on the Armata that's not on allied force AFV's is the active protection system.  I believe the Merkava has something, but I suspect that adding something like the ASPRO-A as an integral fit, rather than an aftermarket fit would be a necessary piece of the puzzle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trophy_(countermeasure)

(Forgive the wikipedia....)

NS

Couldn't firing something like a flechette round which creates multiple incoming targets overwhelm the active protection system (and possibly set off the reactive armour) on a tank so that a follow on anti-armour round can make it through?

 

[NavyShooter]

Yes, probably, but then you've fired two shots for one hit, and the defending tank would know where the second shot is coming from.

Having the two combined into one shot wouldn't work because the penetrator would end up being much faster than the flechettes.  (Not to mention the dispersion of the flechettes at any normal tank-battle range.)

NS

 

[McG]

Has there ever been a duplex round built for a cannon?  I assume there would be significant engineering problems to build it with good accuracy, but it would produce a double tap effect like described above.

 

[Old Sweat]

As a horribly out of date gunner I can think of several challenges, not the least being that gravity hauls objects in flight down at the same rate regardless of their horizontal velocity.

 

[George Wallace]

Has there ever been a duplex round built for a cannon?  I assume there would be significant engineering problems to build it with good accuracy, but it would produce a double tap effect like described above.

Yes.  There are anti-tank rounds that have an initiating charge and a secondary (Tandem-charge). 

The RPG 7 can fire the PG-7VR Tandem HEAT warhead. 
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPG-7
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PG-7VR



Some Links on Tank and other ammo:

http://www.imi-israel.com/home/doc.aspx?mCatID=62837

http://aollc.biz/tank.htm

http://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/en/rheinmetall_defence/systems_and_products/weapons_and_ammunition/direct_fire/large_calibre/index.php

http://www.gd-otscanada.com/product/120mm-tank-ammunition/

http://www.chemring.co.uk/~/media/Files/C/Chemring-V2/PDFs/sector-brochure-munitions-web-300512

 

[McG]

Yes.  There are anti-tank rounds that have an initiating charge and a secondary (Tandem-charge). 

It is not quite the same thing.  Tandem is one projectile.  It works against reactive armour, but not so much against active defence systems.
Duplex ammunition puts two projectiles in the air with one shot.

 

[quadrapiper]

It is not quite the same thing.  Tandem is one projectile.  It works against reactive armour, but not so much against active defence systems.
Duplex ammunition puts two projectiles in the air with one shot.

Are the active defences' associated sensors something that radiates or otherwise behaves in a way that allows targeting ( perhaps with something that's not the main gun) or EW spoofing, whether jamming or triggering the defence?