Global Warming/Climate Change Super Thread

[Dana381]

I have nothing against electric vehicles, I think its a great idea on many levels. I am actually working on a low budget plug in hybrid add on to my F-550.

The problem is forcing people into a technology that is not ready. Yes electric cars work for some, but they don't work for all yet. Are we at the point where outlawing ice cars is prudent, hard no. We should never outlaw ice cars like we never outlawed steam powered cars. When the technology proves itself demand will dry up, as long as demand exists we should be able to purchase them.

Currently every technology to generate electricity has strong environmental opponents, for good reason. Right now it is almost impossible to build a large scale power generator anywhere in North America. Yet EV enthusiasts insist we should all drive EVs or we are evil. Canada and California have banned ice cars after 2035. There are currently no projects underway that can supply that much electricity, there likely won't be either because environmentalists won't allow it.

Meanwhile the oil, gas, and auto industries have been under ever increasing extremely stringent environmental laws for 50 years now. ICE cars are super clean burning and fuel efficient compared to years ago. I have been inside a building with multiple 13-15 liter modern diesel engines running at the same time and you can't even tell aside from the noise.

 

[TacticalTea]

I have nothing against electric vehicles, I think its a great idea on many levels. I am actually working on a low budget plug in hybrid add on to my F-550.

The problem is forcing people into a technology that is not ready. Yes electric cars work for some, but they don't work for all yet. Are we at the point where outlawing ice cars is prudent, hard no. We should never outlaw ice cars like we never outlawed steam powered cars. When the technology proves itself demand will dry up, as long as demand exists we should be able to purchase them.

Currently every technology to generate electricity has strong environmental opponents, for good reason. Right now it is almost impossible to build a large scale power generator anywhere in North America. Yet EV enthusiasts insist we should all drive EVs or we are evil. Canada and California have banned ice cars after 2035. There are currently no projects underway that can supply that much electricity, there likely won't be either because environmentalists won't allow it.

Meanwhile the oil, gas, and auto industries have been under ever increasing extremely stringent environmental laws for 50 years now. ICE cars are super clean burning and fuel efficient compared to years ago. I have been inside a building with multiple 13-15 liter modern diesel engines running at the same time and you can't even tell aside from the noise.

slight correction: ICE bans don't actually ban ICE cars, you just can't make them anymore.

If the 2035 bans stay in place, every car on the road then won't be an EV, we just won't see more ICE cars added to traffic from then on.

 

[Dana381]

slight correction: ICE bans don't actually ban ICE cars, you just can't make them anymore.

If the 2035 bans stay in place, every car on the road then won't be an EV, we just won't see more ICE cars added to traffic from then on.

Yes, for now. Can the grid handle 1.6 million new electric cars per year?

Canada - Flash report, Automotive sales volume, 2021 - MarkLines Automotive Industry Portal

Canadian vehicle sales down 12.8% in Q4, up 6.6% for full-year 2021. Canadian vehicle sales of 341,786 units in the fourth quarter of 2021 decreased 12.8% from the 392,162 units sold in the same quarter in 2020.Overall vehicle sales for 2021 increased

www.marklines.com

 

[Colin Parkinson]

slight correction: ICE bans don't actually ban ICE cars, you just can't make them anymore.

If the 2035 bans stay in place, every car on the road then won't be an EV, we just won't see more ICE cars added to traffic from then on.

Banning ICE is a really stupid idea, fostered onto us by politicians and policy makers that really don't know what they are talking about. EV will always be a niche vehicle in Canada. The real future is in Hybrids.

 

[TacticalTea]

Banning ICE is a really stupid idea, fostered onto us by politicians and policy makers that really don't know what they are talking about. EV will always be a niche vehicle in Canada. The real future is in Hybrids.

Maybe.

I won't defend the idea; looking at our current leadership, it's hard to believe it could be properly implemented and managed (in terms of secondary effects). Plus, it's hard to get the actual facts, given all the propaganda on both sides.

Part of me thinks they're half-assing it because they don't expect the policy to survive all the way to 2035 anyway.

 

[Dana381]

Banning ICE is a really stupid idea, fostered onto us by politicians and policy makers that really don't know what they are talking about. EV will always be a niche vehicle in Canada. The real future is in Hybrids.

I don't think EVs are bad in Canada, they have their place and work well for some people. Someday they may work well for all people but not yet.

 

[kev994]

I didn't say anything about strip mining. Good or bad, Alberta or anywhere.

I was talking about child slave labour in cobalt mining.

Strip mining dosent bother me in and of itself. We use resources of all types and if the best way to get them Is strip mining then so be it. The key issues are how are the sites remediated after they are done. And how environmentally damaging is the process during. I'm sure both of these issues have exponentially better outcomes in Canada then in Africa.

Well, as luck would have it, cobalt is being removed from batteries at a rather quick rate (see link in the post you quoted) because of your concern and because it’s expensive. So you will soon be able to redirect your concern to other cobalt-containing items such as air bags and catalytic converters.

Cobalt Statistics and Information | U.S. Geological Survey

Statistics and information on the worldwide supply of, demand for, and flow of the mineral commodity cobalt

www.usgs.gov

 

[kev994]

Maybe a utility trailer locally where you can keep it connected to charger when parked.

The truck can pull, just not for very long or far.

That’s pretty much the extent of hauling that the vast majority of the population is doing. Large travel trailers, yep, that’s going to be an issue and so maybe not for everyone. But the portion of the population regularly using their vehicles for long-haul trips with a large trailer is minuscule. Taking the boat 25 kms to put it in the water? Not a problem.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I don't think EVs are bad in Canada, they have their place and work well for some people. Someday they may work well for all people but not yet.

As I said they are a niche vehicle, very good at some things, but not as good as a Hybrid overall.

 

[kev994]

As I said they are a niche vehicle, very good at some things, but not as good as a Hybrid overall.

It’s kinda the worst of both worlds though unless you need something specific from the hybrid. One of the big advantages to the EV is the lack of maintenance and reduced complexity/components. If you’re still dragging around an ICE then you miss out on that.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I don't need to pay well over $100,000 to go shopping or run around town and pay the extra charge on my hydro bill.
Before you go pushing EVs, you have to completely rebuild our hydro distribution system. Not add to it. Not repair it. Tear it down and rebuild it with an eye to the future. Nuclear power is the only power that will supply the millions of EVs on the road, that some people seem to want. Definitely putting the cart before the horse on this one. You're going to have thousands of EV sitting in driveways waiting for their half day a week to charge up. Where do the hookups for street parking go?
How many barrels of petroleum are going to go into the manufacture of an EV? Just about every part will require petroleum somewhere in their manufacture. Same as a new grid. How many millions or billions of barrels will that require? I've yet to see a report on how well they fare or how long the battery lasts for vehicles going through six months of Canadian winter. Crank up the heat and lower your mileage even further.
Maybe people who want to,push EVs down our throat can give us a cost and completion time of the new grid to support the new cars. All I see is me driving with a gas generator, in the truck bed, feeding directly to my battery so that I can drive more than a hundred km between charges, while pulling a trailer.

 

[kev994]

I don't need to pay well over $100,000 to go shopping or run around town and pay the extra charge on my hydro bill.
Before you go pushing EVs, you have to completely rebuild our hydro distribution system. Not add to it. Not repair it. Tear it down and rebuild it with an eye to the future. Nuclear power is the only power that will supply the millions of EVs on the road, that some people seem to want. Definitely putting the cart before the horse on this one. You're going to have thousands of EV sitting in driveways waiting for their half day a week to charge up. Where do the hookups for street parking go?
How many barrels of petroleum are going to go into the manufacture of an EV? Just about every part will require petroleum somewhere in their manufacture. Same as a new grid. How many millions or billions of barrels will that require? I've yet to see a report on how well they fare or how long the battery lasts for vehicles going through six months of Canadian winter. Crank up the heat and lower your mileage even further.
Maybe people who want to,push EVs down our throat can give us a cost and completion time of the new grid to support the new cars. All I see is me driving with a gas generator, in the truck bed, feeding directly to my battery so that I can drive more than a hundred km between charges, while pulling a trailer.

You pay the $30 a month on the hydro bill with the $300 you were using for gas

 

[Fishbone Jones]

You pay the $30 a month on the hydro bill with the $300 you were using for gas

How simplistic. That's what you took out of there? Trillions of tax dollars needed to manufacture the grid and you want to argue the cost of hooking up to it v. the cost of a fill up. The taxes that were collected on petroleum have to be made up somewhere. You won't be getting away with any $30 charge when there are no other alternatives. Someone has to pay the cost of the new infrastructure and delivery. It won't be the company or carrier either.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

It’s kinda the worst of both worlds though unless you need something specific from the hybrid. One of the big advantages to the EV is the lack of maintenance and reduced complexity/components. If you’re still dragging around an ICE then you miss out on that.

Unless you buy a Tesla, don't expect a long life out of your car and the resale value longterm is yet unknown. Your EV valve is all about the condition of the battery. If you park indoors, have access to 240v charger, don't charge over 90% and don't go under 25% then your battery should last the average 8 years. The real question is how long will they last? It's quite possible resale value will plummet, either by a poor average lifespan after 8 years or if insurance companies decline to insure them after X years.
Also the previous generation of Tesla electric motors were failing all the time. Apparently they have fixed the issue, but I guess we will see.

 

[kev994]

If you park indoors, have access to 240v charger, don't charge over 90% and don't go under 25% then your battery should last the average 8 years.

maybe if it was 2013. This is just completely wrong. In fact, every EV on the market has an 8 year/160,000 km warranty that includes capacity retention.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

maybe if it was 2013. This is just completely wrong. In fact, every EV on the market has an 8 year/160,000 km warranty that includes capacity retention.

maybe if it was 2013. This is just completely wrong. In fact, every EV on the market has an 8 year/160,000 km warranty that includes capacity retention.

Lithium-Ion Battery This warranty does not cover damage or failures resulting from or caused by: • Exposing a vehicle to ambient temperatures above 120F (49C) for over 24 hours. • Storing a vehicle in temperatures below -13F (-25C) for over seven days. LIMITATIONS TO YOUR NEW VEHICLE LIMITED WARRANTY (CONT’D) 12 • Leaving your vehicle for over 14 days where the lithium-ion battery reaches a zero or near zero state of charge. • Physically damaging the lithium-ion battery or intentionally attempting to reduce the life of the lithium-ion battery. • Exposing the lithium-ion battery to contact with a direct flame. • Immersing any portion of the lithium-ion battery in water or fluids. • Opening the lithium-ion battery enclosure or having it serviced by someone other than a Nissan LEAF certified technician. • Neglecting to follow correct charging procedures. • Use of incompatible charging devices. • Consequential damage caused by the failure to repair an existing problem. Gradual Capacity Loss The Lithium-ion battery (EV battery), like all lithiumion batteries, will experience gradual capacity loss with time and use. Loss of battery capacity due to or resulting from gradual capacity loss is NOT covered under this warranty beyond the terms and limits specified in the LITHIUM-ION BATTERY CAPACITY COVERAGE above. See your OWNER’S MANUAL for important tips on how to maximize the life and capacity of the “Lithium-ion battery.”

Industry average for batteries at 8 years is 60%. That may be ok for you and possibly the 2nd owner. But no one really knows what the market will look like for the 3rd owner. I will agree that now is the optimal time to own one thanks to the purchase subsidies and the fact that you are not paying road tax. Eventually when enough EV's are on the road those subsidies will dry up and governments will want their road tax. Then the EV vs ICE/Hybrids will not look so good.

 

[kev994]

Industry average for batteries at 8 years is 60%. That may be ok for you and possibly the 2nd owner. But no one really knows what the market will look like for the 3rd owner. I will agree that now is the optimal time to own one thanks to the purchase subsidies and the fact that you are not paying road tax. Eventually when enough EV's are on the road those subsidies will dry up and governments will want their road tax. Then the EV vs ICE/Hybrids will not look so good.

I’m not sure where you’re getting 60%, here’s a list of warranties and they’re all 70. The leaf is a bit of an oddball with no thermal management, I think this is the last year that they’re making it.

The Best Electric Vehicle Battery Warranties in 2024

Don't get stuck footing the $20,000 bill to replace an EV battery outside of warranty. These are the best manufacturer warranties for electric vehicles.

joinyaa.com

 

[kev994]

How simplistic. That's what you took out of there? Trillions of tax dollars needed to manufacture the grid and you want to argue the cost of hooking up to it v. the cost of a fill up. The taxes that were collected on petroleum have to be made up somewhere. You won't be getting away with any $30 charge when there are no other alternatives. Someone has to pay the cost of the new infrastructure and delivery. It won't be the company or carrier either.

A trillion dollars does seem like a lot. How many litres of gas does Canada use in a year? I think I might have a solution.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

A trillion dollars does seem like a lot. How many litres of gas does Canada use in a year? I think I might have a solution.

I don't think you do.

 

[lenaitch]

Depends on the car of course, Model Y has 5,000 lb towing but based on demand they’re really expensive right now. Cadillac Lyriq is also 5,000 lbs, they’re ~$70k if you can get one.

I was in traffic the other day behind a Tesla (don't know which one) and it had what looked like a factory-installed hitch receiver.

Maybe they can tow a generator.