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Global Warming/Climate Change Super Thread

>In general, I ask the following question, what evidence would suffice to convince the skeptics in this thread that humans are effecting climate (to the extent proposed by the scientiifc community)?

A model which accurately reproduces the curves of the various major sets of proxy data for the past couple of millennia and shows a difference accounting for the alleged amount of change when human factors are scrubbed out would do.
 
CouchCommander: we are talking about "garbage-in, garbage-out" ... the data is inherently suspect. 

E.g.:
20 February 2005
Bring the Proxies Up to Date!!

I will make here a very simple suggestion: if IPCC or others want to use “multiproxy” reconstructions of world temperature for policy purposes, stop using data ending in 1980 and bring the proxies up-to-date. I would appreciate comments on this note as I think that I will pursue the matter with policymakers.

Let’s see how they perform in the warm 1990s – which should be an ideal period to show the merit of the proxies. I do not believe that any responsible policy-maker can base policy, even in part, on the continued use of obsolete data ending in 1980, when the costs of bringing the data up-to-date is inconsequential compared to Kyoto costs.

For example, in Mann’s famous hockey stick graph, as presented to policymakers and to the public, the graph used Mann’s reconstruction from proxies up to 1980 and instrumental temperatures (here, as in other similar studies, using Jones’ more lurid CRU surface history rather than the more moderate increases shown by satellite measurements). Usually (but not always), a different color is used for the instrumental portion, but, from a promotional point of view, the juxtaposition of the two series achieves the desired promotional effect. (In mining promotions, where there is considerable community experience with promotional graphics and statistics, securities commission prohibit the adding together of proven ore reserves and inferred ore reserves – a policy which deserves a little reflection in the context of IPCC studies).

Last week, a brand new multiproxy study by European scientists [Moberg et al., 2005] was published in Nature. On the very day of publication, I received an email from a prominent scientist telling me that Mann’s hockeystick was yesterday’s news, that the “community” had now “moved on” and so should I. That the “community” had had no opportunity to verify Moberg’s results, however meritorious they may finally appear, seemed to matter not at all.

If you look at the proxy portion of the new Moberg graphic, you see nothing that would be problematic for opponents of the hockey stick: it shows a striking Medieval Warm Period (MWP), a cold Little Ice Age and 20th century warming not quite reaching MWP levels by 1979, when the proxy portion of the study ends. (I’m in the process of examining the individual proxies and the Moberg reconstruction is not without its own imperfections.) In the presentation to the public - see the figure in the Nature article itself, once again, there is the infamous splice between reconstruction by proxy (up to 1980) and the instrumental record thereafter (once again Jones’ CRU record, rather than the satellite record).

One of the first question that occurs to any civilian becoming familiar with these studies (and it was one of my first questions) is: what happens to the proxies after 1980? Given the presumed warmth of the 1990s, and especially 1998 (the “warmest year in the millennium”), you’d think that the proxy values would be off the chart. In effect, the last 25 years have provided an ideal opportunity to validate the usefulness of proxies and, especially the opportunity to test the confidence intervals of these studies, put forward with such assurance by the multiproxy proponents. What happens to the proxies used in MBH99 or Moberg et al [2005] or Crowley and Lowery [2000] in the 1990s and, especially, 1998?

... when you look in detail at what is actually involved in collecting the proxy data used in the medieval period in the key multiproxy studies. The number of proxies used in MBH99 is from fewer than 40 sites (28 tree ring sites being U.S. tree ring sites represented in 3 principal component series)...
http://www.climateaudit.org/index.php?p=89

I encourage you to check out some of the questions raised under "categories" on the right-hand side (particularly those under "proxies" and "modelling") ... there are many issues that Al Gore would prefer to ignore.

My point earlier about "arbitrary and unsupported statements" was that you (like many others) are drawing conclusions from weak models which are based upon spurious data.
 
"Dammit, well tweak the models again ... I'm sure there's some way to spin this as being proof of global warming."  :-[

2006 Tropical Storm Season Now Below Normal


(21 August 2006) What a difference a year makes. After the record-breaking 2005 Atlantic hurricane season, the 2006 season is now below normal.

As of yesterday (20 August) three tropical storms will have formed in the Atlantic in an "average" year, which is the same number that have formed this year so far. Because of multi-year averaging, that means that today (August 21) slightly more than three storms would have formed, making this year (statistically speaking) just below normal.

In the hurricane category, this year is decidedly below normal, with no hurricanes so far, while by this date 1.5 hurricanes have formed in the average of years 1944 though 2005.

Reason for the Season?: Cooler Sea Surface Temperatures
Part of the reason for the slow season is that tropical western Atlantic sea surface temperatures (SSTs) are running about normal, if not slightly below normal (see graphic below, which shows SST departures from normal).

In contrast, at the same time last year SSTs in the same region were running well above normal.

The cooler SSTs in the Atlantic are not an isolated anomaly. In a research paper being published next month in Geophysical Research Letters, scientists will show that between 2003 and 2005, globally averaged temperatures in the upper ocean cooled rather dramatically, effectively erasing 20% of the warming that occurred over the previous 48 years.

Global Warming?
The slow hurricane season and the cooling sea surface temperatures might be somewhat surprising to the public. Media reports over the last year have suggested that, since global warming will only get worse, and last year's hurricane activity was supposedly due to global warming, this season might well be as bad as last season. But it appears that Mother Nature might have other plans.


The Rest of the Hurricane Season
With only 3 named storms compared to 9 on this date last year, it is nearly impossible at this late date to have a season anywhere near as busy as last season, which totaled 27 by the end of the year. The most recent prediction from the National Weather Service (see first graphic, above) is for there to be 12 to 15 named storms by December -- only half of last year's total. It now looks like that prediction might be too generous.

While it is still possible for this hurricane season to end up above normal in activity and reach that forecast, each day that passes without so much as a tropical 'depression' makes that target less and less likely.

http://www.weatherstreet.com/hurricane/2006/hurricane-atlantic-2006-below-normal-season.htm
 
I actually posted a paper, oh 3 or 4 pages back, that discussed the possibility of a shutdown, permanent or temporary, of thermohaline circulation.

I'm no climatologist, but I suspect this would have something to do with that - that or it's just "noise".

"Dammit, well tweak the models again ... I'm sure there's some way to spin this as being proof of global warming."

...The fact that it was predicted before it happened....

Heh, this is amusing..."OH, LOOK, SOMETHING STRANGE IS HAPPENING! GLOBAL WARMING IS A FARCE!"... well actually...
 
I'm reluctant to go here - but I just can't help myself - It's an addiction.

Mother nature discovers sea waters getting too warm - throws a couple more ice cubes in from Greenland, the Arctic and the Antarctic. Water cools.  Air above water cools.  Clouds form blocking sun and dropping temperatures.  At northern and southern latitudes snow falls replenishing supply of ice cubes.  The world continues.

Likewise with Carbon - CO2 increases trapping heat but also blocking solar heating.  Warmer temperatures and higher CO2 levels means more greenstuff grows, not necessarily the types desired or the places wanted but it sucks up Carbon.  CO2 level falls.

These things are not new. 

Call me when we have a couple of hundred years of modern monitoring procedures so that we can determine what "normal" variation is. 

We can't use proxy measurements and compare them to current day to day monitoring.  You need time to compare actual instrumentally monitored results to actual impacts on tree growth, ice accumulation and CO2 incorporation to determine how the proxies stack up to the instruments - in the real world of process design the exercise is known as calibration and it takes time.  Nobody would dream of adjusting their process until they determined that their instruments were properly calibrated.  In fact the matter is considered so critical that often companies are reluctant to throw out "inadequate" measuring regimes for "better" new regimes because it renders their entire history invalid and thus it makes it difficult to predict the performance of the plant in the future.  This leads to more guesswork, often erroneous, which in turns leads to poorer performance and profitability.

Often the best action is no action at all.
 
Kirkhill said:
Nobody would dream of adjusting their process until they determined that there instruments were properly calibrated. 

Ah, and therein lies the rub: Global Warming is more about Politics than Science.
 
Last time I put up a link, it expired.  So here it is from the Globe and Mail:

"Ignatieff hopes to help drivers go green
JANE TABER

From Saturday's Globe and Mail

Michael Ignatieff's environmental plan, to be released Monday, calls for a “polluter pays” system that would include lower taxes at the pumps for consumers who use greener fuel.

The perceived front-runner in the Liberal leadership race will also concede that Canada cannot meet the Kyoto Protocol's target of reducing greenhouse gas emissions to 6 per cent below 1990 levels by 2012.

Instead, his plan would reduce Canada's carbon dioxide emissions to at least 50 per cent below 1990 levels by 2050, with interim targets set for each decade, according to a senior campaign official familiar with the plan. This would set the country on a path to an “eventual carbon-neutral economy,” he will argue.

Mr. Ignatieff will take on the Conservative government, saying that not being able to meet the Kyoto target is not “a licence” for the Tories to “abandon” it altogether, according to the official. He will suggest that the Harper government has created an “irresponsible policy vacuum,” sending the wrong message to Canadians, business and the world.

Mr. Ignatieff plans to release his environmental platform at a private roundtable with leading climate-change experts at the University of British Columbia.

The discussions will be followed by a news conference and the public release of the action plan he wants Liberals to take into the next election.

Mr. Ignatieff mused in June about bringing in a carbon tax, but never spelled out exactly what he meant. Even suggesting such a tax on fossil fuels angered Albertans and the Conservatives jumped all over him, arguing it would cause economic and regional grief.

Other Liberal leadership candidates, such as Stéphane Dion, said they would not consider a carbon tax, promoting instead a series of environmental-policy tax reforms.

Mr. Ignatieff's new plan explains his musings in greater detail.

He would gradually lower the GST and excise taxes for fuel that is lower in carbon content.

One such fuel is ethanol, produced in the United States from corn and in Brazil from sugar. Only two gas stations in Canada now sell ethanol.

“He is deeply committed to putting a price on emissions so that the atmosphere does not continue to be a free garbage dump,” said the campaign official.

“So, [an] excise tax at the pump is gradually cut for low carbon fuel and rises for fuel with higher carbon content. But, and it's a big but, the shift has to be revenue neutral.”

This means that the increase will offset the decrease in such a way that the price difference will drive consumers to choose the more environmentally friendly fuel.

Mr. Ignatieff is also proposing a cap on maximum aggregate greenhouse gas emissions for major industrial emitters, according to the official.

It would require industry to buy tradeable emission permits.

Companies that find ways to reduce their emissions below the limit could sell their unused room as “credits to companies that are over the limit, creating an economic incentive to reduce emissions.

“The absolute cap would decrease over time,” said the official. “This puts a price on the costs of industrial emissions and is an example of ‘polluter pays.'”

The Ignatieff plan is the result of months of consultation with experts, including: Mark Jaccard, a Simon Fraser University energy economist; the David Suzuki Foundation; Matthew Bramley, director of climate change at the Pembina Institute in Gatineau, Que.; and the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers.

Mr. Ignatieff wants Canadians not to be afraid of talking about the use of “tax instruments to reduce emissions,” the official said.

“Any policy must have quantifiable measures of success and be adjusted as needed over time,” the official said.

Mr. Ignatieff's plan will also suggest a program that requires car manufacturers to increase the market share for low, ultra-low and zero-emissions vehicles. That would include “hybrid” vehicles that use an internal combustion engine combined with an electric drive, such as the Prius and versions of the Toyota Highlander, Ford Escape, Honda Accord and Civic and a GM pickup.

In his statement Monday, Mr. Ignatieff will also urge the Liberal Party to make sustainable development a key plank in the party's election platform.
"

IdiocyEthanol is sold in far more that 2 gas stations across Canada.  Go on down to your local Mohawk station and you can buy gasoline blended with 35% Ethanol.  Just passed into law recently (by the Conservatives) was a requirement for 5% ethanol in all gasoline everywhere.  Ethanol is inferior to gasoline.  It is a viable alternative only when gasoline is not available, such as in Brazil (for trade reasons, not environmental), or in the future when we finally do run out of oil.  Even then, it really is harder on your car.  That is why only 2 gas stations in the country sell 100% (?) ethanol.

Malice:  A cap on CO2 emissions, gradually lowered arbitrarily until we are a "net-zero emitter?"  What country does Ignatieff think were are living in?  Such blatant power over free-enterprise has never been exercised in this country.  Basically, CO2 emissions controlls = energy use controls = economic activity controls.  This sounds to me a little more than socialist.  There is no industry in this country, including Ethanol plants, that does not lead back to the production of CO2.  An exception might be nuclear plants, as long as no one working there drives to work, and they make deliveries by horse and cart.

Idiocy: He does not have to concede that we cannot meet the 2012 goals as set by the Kyoto accord; everyone already knows this.  It is not a matter of political opinion, but an objective fact.  That the Globe and Mail expresses it a '6% under 1990 levels' means that they also are not the sharpest knives in the drawer.  A more telling figure would be how far under current emissions the 2012 goal would be, somewhere around 30%.

Malice: The terms 'polluter pays policy" and "major industrial emitters".  These belong in discussions about actual pollutants, mercury dumping. CO2 is only technically a pollutant, since the government changed it's legal definition to 'toxic' a few years ago so that it could legally control it's production.  Carbon Dioxide has nothing to do with actually toxic 'toxins', like, cyanide.

Idiocy:  You do not have to be an engineer to know that hauling a redundant engine is less efficient, not more efficient.  Hybrid vehicles will not achieve anything along the lines of what is being discussed.  Once again, these will become useful in the future, when the oil supply really does run out.

Malice:  CO2 is not garbage.  The "atmosphere as garbage dump" is a concept he borrowed from discussions about actual pollution.

Idiocy:  The shift can be revenue neutral while still having crippling economic consequences.  Shall the unemployed oilfield workers take up farming after everyone starts using Ethanol?  The kicker is that government revenues will be affected anyway, indirectly.  Once the majority of energy sources becomes more expensive or less efficient, there will be fewer profits from business for tax coffers, and less income available from tax payers.
Actually, under this scenario, revenue neutral would mean only the tax-payer looses out. 

Can't decide: CO2 emissions goal to be 50% of 1990 levels by 2050.  How?  Will we all move to other countries?  Will we just shut down most of our economy?  (more than half, remember Canada emits more CO2 now than it did in 1990).  This is not sustainable development -it is moving backward economically; negative development.  No environmentalist I have ever heard has made such an outrageous claim as what they would like to see, let alone as to what they think will really happen.

What does everyone else think?  I have listed every reason that comes to mind for Ignatieff's proposed carbon tax.

 
Idiocy =4
Malice=3

How does a guy who says such things in public get a reputation for being smart anyway? I'll bet the next proposal will be to control the amount of water vapour in the atmosphere, since that is far and away the most potent and important greenhouse gas by many orders of magnitude.....
 
Kirkhill said:
Nobody would dream of adjusting their process until they determined that their instruments were properly calibrated.

+1 Kirkhill!

The fairly simple proof of principle that I offered (dozens of pages ago, I'm sure) was the "Hockey Stick" showed relatively constant temperatures over the past millenia, while historical and archeological records covering the same period did not. Obviously something is out of whack, and until that something is discovered and sorted, making policy or predictions on suspect data is very dangerous.
 
Interesting to see Mann (et.al.) (aka "Mr. Hockey Stick") are starting to blame others for their lack of disclosure (Letter to Nature magazine):

Sir:
Your News story "Academy affirms hockey-stick graph" (Nature 441, 1032; 2006) states that the US National Academy of Sciences (NAS) panel "concluded that systematic uncertainties in climate records from before 1600 were not communicated as clearly as they could have been". This conclusion is not stated in the NAS report itself, but formed part of the remarks made by Gerald North, the NAS committee chair, at the press conference announcing the report.

The name of our paper is "Northern Hemisphere temperatures during the past millennium: inferences, uncertainties, and limitations" (Geophys. Res. Lett. 26, 759–762; 1999). In the abstract, we state: "We focus not just on the reconstructions, but on the uncertainties therein, and important caveats" and note that "expanded uncertainties prevent decisive conclusions for the period prior to AD 1400". We conclude by stating: "more widespread high-resolution data are needed before more confident conclusions can be reached." It is hard to imagine how much more explicit we could have been about the uncertainties in the reconstruction; indeed, that was the point of the article!

The subsequent confusion about uncertainties was the result of poor communication by others, who used our temperature reconstruction without the reservations that we had stated clearly.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v442/n7103/full/442627b.html

and M&M reply:
Sir:
In their recent correspondence, (Nature, 442, 627, 2006) Mann et al. claim that "it is hard to imagine how much more explicit we could have been about the uncertainties in the reconstruction" (Nature, 392, 779-787, 1998). In fact, it is not hard at all. They could have disclosed and explicitly discussed the lack of statistical significance of the verification r2 statistic for reconstruction steps prior to 1750, values of which were approximately 0 (S. McIntyre and R.McKitrick, GRL, 32, doi:10.1029/2004GL0217502005, 2005; E. Wahl and C. Ammann, Clim. Chg, accepted, 2006). Such disclosure would have shown that the uncertainties of their reconstruction were substantially underestimated, as the National Academy of Sciences panel recently concluded (p. 107).

Mann et al blame "poor communication by others" for "subsequent confusion about uncertainties", but ignore the fact that Mann was a lead author of chapter 2 of the IPCC Third Assessment Report, which stated that the Mann et al. reconstruction had "significant skill in independent cross-validation tests," without mentioning the verification statistic failures. They likewise ignore their own press releases, issued by the University of Massachusetts, and contemporary press articles linked at Mann’s website, which set the overconfident tone they now apparently regret. There is no evidence that Mann et al made any effort to correct these "poor communications" either at the time or subsequently.

Nature itself must share blame for the length of time it took to identify these statistical failures. In 2003, after Mann et al had refused to provide to us either the test scores, residual series or even the results of the individual steps for independent statistical verification, we filed a Materials Complaint with Nature requesting this data. Nature refused to intervene, saying that disclosure was up to the original authors. Perhaps this experience will encourage Nature to re-consider such policies.

Stephen McIntyre and Ross McKitrick
http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=775

To be sure, none of this will matter to Kyoto junkies and the rest "invested" in global warming, but couchcommander, you'd do well to have a look through your links to see how many of those studies from so many pages ago are actually based on the MBH Hockey Stick (or even the modified Hockey Stick, after they corrected some of the more egregious methodological errors, in response to some of M&M's criticisms).

 
exsemjingo said:
IdiocyEthanol is sold in far more that 2 gas stations across Canada.  Go on down to your local Mohawk station and you can buy gasoline blended with 35% Ethanol.  Just passed into law recently (by the Conservatives) was a requirement for 5% ethanol in all gasoline everywhere.  Ethanol is inferior to gasoline.  It is a viable alternative only when gasoline is not available, such as in Brazil (for trade reasons, not environmental), or in the future when we finally do run out of oil.  Even then, it really is harder on your car.  That is why only 2 gas stations in the country sell 100% (?) ethanol.

You are incorrect that the government recently passed a law that mandates the inclusion of 5% blend of ethanol in all gasoline.  The government already had the legal authority to issue such a mandate under the regulatory provisions (section 140(a)) under the Canadian Environmental Protection Act, 1999.  The government created a mandate (essentially a regulation) for fuels to contain 5% biofuel content.  It's even more watered down than you think.  Each pump won't have a 5% blend, the mandate only requires there be a 5% content average across all fuels sold in Canada.  Some will have it, some will not. 

exsemjingo said:
Malice:  A cap on CO2 emissions, gradually lowered arbitrarily until we are a "net-zero emitter?"  What country does Ignatieff think were are living in?  Such blatant power over free-enterprise has never been exercised in this country.  Basically, CO2 emissions controlls = energy use controls = economic activity controls.  This sounds to me a little more than socialist.  There is no industry in this country, including Ethanol plants, that does not lead back to the production of CO2.  An exception might be nuclear plants, as long as no one working there drives to work, and they make deliveries by horse and cart.

You're missing the nuance here.  If you want the market to manage their emissions on there own, then a cap is needed.  It is common sense that some sectors, on the aggregate, will have an easier time making reductions than others which translates into that it will be more expensive for some than others.  The cap he speaks of is likely setting caps for individual sectors.  The cap is only required if you will allow firms to purchase 'offset' credits.  Keeping in mind what I wrote above, individual firms could sell credits (too any sector) for any reduction they achieve which is below their cap.  Firms who can't achieve their reductions can purchase these credits.  In the end, because emissions reductions are a zero-sum game, it doesn't matter who achieved what because the national goal would have been met.  This set up gives flexibility to industry, sends clear and consistant regulatory signals, and provides an economic incentive for firms who can go deeper, to go deeper.

exsemjingo said:
Malice: The terms 'polluter pays policy" and "major industrial emitters".  These belong in discussions about actual pollutants, mercury dumping. CO2 is only technically a pollutant, since the government changed it's legal definition to 'toxic' a few years ago so that it could legally control it's production.  Carbon Dioxide has nothing to do with actually toxic 'toxins', like, cyanide.

The government did not change the legal definition of 'toxic' a few years ago.  It used the same definition that currently exists for treating 'actual pollutants' in the Canadian Environmental Protection Act, 1999.  Check out sections 64(a) and 64(b).

exsemjingo said:
Idiocy:  The shift can be revenue neutral while still having crippling economic consequences.  Shall the unemployed oilfield workers take up farming after everyone starts using Ethanol?  The kicker is that government revenues will be affected anyway, indirectly.  Once the majority of energy sources becomes more expensive or less efficient, there will be fewer profits from business for tax coffers, and less income available from tax payers.  Actually, under this scenario, revenue neutral would mean only the tax-payer looses out.

Again, you missed part of the nuance of his idea.  He suggests tinkering with already existing federal excise taxes applied to automobile fuels.  He wants to create a tax-differential between fuels that contain biofuels and those that don't.  This can be achieved by lowering the GST and the federal excise tax on some fuels and leaving them untouched for others.  This would create an incentive for consumers to switch to less harmful fuel. 

He's not talking about applying a carbon tax to industrial emitters.  If he was, the oil & gas and oil sands mining sectors would be worried due to the associated cost-drag on their industry.  In the end, it wouldn't be the industry paying the tax, it would be the consumer anyway.  Its well known that companies always pass on their tax costs to consumers.  However, I suggest that your assertion that this will cripple oilfield workers and that they would have to go back to their agrarian roots is a little too doomsday for me.

exsemjingo said:
Can't decide: CO2 emissions goal to be 50% of 1990 levels by 2050.  How?  Will we all move to other countries?  Will we just shut down most of our economy?  (more than half, remember Canada emits more CO2 now than it did in 1990).  This is not sustainable development -it is moving backward economically; negative development.  No environmentalist I have ever heard has made such an outrageous claim as what they would like to see, let alone as to what they think will really happen.

I have seen work that suggests that this is entirely possible.  You should look at the report recently prepared by the National Roundtable for the Environment and the Economy (NRTEE).  Their underlying assertion is that technology and the rate of technological change that the world is experiencing is what will drive the reduction in emissions.  The technological aspect of environmental policy in this country is always absent from discussions. 

In the end, Climate Change is very real but it is not solely an environmental problem.  It is also harder for people to understand it.  It's not as clear as say, tainted water or smog.  It is also an industrial and energy problem.  That is why when people put forth credible ideas worthy of discussion, it will always include an industrial and energy component to their plan.


 
If a tax advantage is to be granted to biofuel purchasers, then biofuel producers should be taxed for whatever hydrocarbons they consume.  I see no point to encouraging the use of hydrocarbons - either directly, or indirectly via thermal electricity generation plants - as part of a process to produce biofuels.  There is also this to consider: if biofuel production draws more energy from either the electrical grid or the oil supply than it returns, what is the point?  Biofuels make sense if a previously untapped resource is converted to usable fuels using formerly unexploited sources of energy.
 
Brad Sallows said:
If a tax advantage is to be granted to biofuel purchasers, then biofuel producers should be taxed for whatever hydrocarbons they consume.  I see no point to encouraging the use of hydrocarbons - either directly, or indirectly via thermal electricity generation plants - as part of a process to produce biofuels.  There is also this to consider: if biofuel production draws more energy from either the electrical grid or the oil supply than it returns, what is the point?  Biofuels make sense if a previously untapped resource is converted to usable fuels using formerly unexploited sources of energy.

You have nailed the fundamental critque of biofuels perfectly.  And you also raise an intersting point how taxation might apply to the producers of ethanol and biodiesel if such a carbon tax was introduced.
 
exsemjingo said:
Malice:  A cap on CO2 emissions, gradually lowered arbitrarily until we are a "net-zero emitter?"  What country does Ignatieff think were are living in?  Such blatant power over free-enterprise has never been exercised in this country.  Basically, CO2 emissions controlls = energy use controls = economic activity controls.  This sounds to me a little more than socialist.  There is no industry in this country, including Ethanol plants, that does not lead back to the production of CO2.  An exception might be nuclear plants, as long as no one working there drives to work, and they make deliveries by horse and cart.


Net-zero means that our absorption and our emission cancel out. Plants convert carbon dioxide into its base constituents: carbon, and oxygen. Plants grow on the ground. Canada, has lots of ground to grow plants on. Hence, more ground equals more absorption. When absorption equals emission, there is a net-zero emission of carbon dioxide by the country. It's pretty simple. It does not mean that we eliminate all emissions of CO2. And what is wrong with a little control over what is being spewed into the atmosphere? Do you pour motor oil down your drain? And maybe the industry needs a little push in the right direction, towards sustainable energy. Look how the asian auto market took advantage of high oil prices in the 70s to change how cars were made. If the government forces the industries to adapt, instead of being complacent, we may suffer a bit in the short term but we'll benefit in the long term.


exsemjingo said:
Idiocy:  You do not have to be an engineer to know that hauling a redundant engine is less efficient, not more efficient.  Hybrid vehicles will not achieve anything along the lines of what is being discussed.  Once again, these will become useful in the future, when the oil supply really does run out.

You also don't have to be an engineer to realize that the efficiency of an internal combustion engine is about 20%, not including the loss of energy to the mechanics of the engine etc. Hybrid vehicles aren't the end-all solution but the fact is, a lot of the energy it requires to slow your car down is reused by converting it into electricity. Electric motors are still inefficient, due to a large amount of heat loss, but they are more efficient that IC engines in city driving, which is where most of todays SUVs and 8 cylinder trucks are driven. Why not use the hybrids NOW to extend the use of our oil supply? Do you look at your paycheck and think "Well, I'm not going to use my 10% military discount now, I'll wait until I don't have any money left to do so."? That's idiocy.


exsemjingo said:
Idiocy:  The shift can be revenue neutral while still having crippling economic consequences.  Shall the unemployed oilfield workers take up farming after everyone starts using Ethanol?  The kicker is that government revenues will be affected anyway, indirectly.  Once the majority of energy sources becomes more expensive or less efficient, there will be fewer profits from business for tax coffers, and less income available from tax payers.
Actually, under this scenario, revenue neutral would mean only the tax-payer looses out. 

Where in the article does it say that we're just going to instantly drop fossil fuels and take up ethanol?

I'm sorry, but uninformed opinions cause problems on both sides of the issue. It doesn't have to happen all at once, but a gradual adjustment to more renewable energy sources and better living practices will benefit all in the end. Economically, it'll probably boost the country as new technologies are researched and old technologies are perfected or made more efficient to maintain their competitiveness. Ignatieff doesn't have all the answers (neither do I), but we've got to start somewhere.
 
Feral said:
Net-zero means that our absorption and our emission cancel out. Plants convert carbon dioxide into its base constituents: carbon, and oxygen. Plants grow on the ground. Canada, has lots of ground to grow plants on. Hence, more ground equals more absorption. When absorption equals emission, there is a net-zero emission of carbon dioxide by the country.

Much of Canada's land mass is the Canadian Shield or Tundra, not exactly hospitable for large scale plant growth. What you see there is about all that the local ecology can support. Dense plant growth suitable to absorb the amount of CO2 on the scale being discussed here can only happen in massive plantations using the most advanced agribusiness techniques. Unless you are for a Manhattan Project to genetically engineer plants to utilize sunlight more efficiently, agribusiness involves lots of petrochemicals to push up yields.

You also don't have to be an engineer to realize that the efficiency of an internal combustion engine is about 20%, not including the loss of energy to the mechanics of the engine etc. Hybrid vehicles aren't the end-all solution but the fact is, a lot of the energy it requires to slow your car down is reused by converting it into electricity. Electric motors are still inefficient, due to a large amount of heat loss, but they are more efficient that IC engines in city driving, which is where most of todays SUVs and 8 cylinder trucks are driven. Why not use the hybrids NOW to extend the use of our oil supply? Do you look at your paycheck and think "Well, I'm not going to use my 10% military discount now, I'll wait until I don't have any money left to do so."? That's idiocy.

Most alternatives to the IC motor sacrifice convenience for efficiency. Are you going to wait for a boiler to raise steam, or a fuel cell to reach operating temperature before you can even leave the driveway? How about a very noticeable lag between pressing the gas pedal and actually accelerating? While individual systems have specific strengths and weakness, overall the reason the internal combustion engine displaced electric and steam cars early in the 20th century was that drivers are not willing to sacrifice convenience. You may debate the morality or sensibility of such behaviour, but nevertheless, there it is.

I'm sorry, but uninformed opinions cause problems on both sides of the issue. It doesn't have to happen all at once, but a gradual adjustment to more renewable energy sources and better living practices will benefit all in the end. Economically, it'll probably boost the country as new technologies are researched and old technologies are perfected or made more efficient to maintain their competitiveness. Ignatieff doesn't have all the answers (neither do I), but we've got to start somewhere.

Actually, all these things are happening all around us. Alternative energy is still a niche market, so these changes will creep up on us. In the mean time, as oil prices rise, the market also provides increasing incentives to produce more oil (reactivating old wells with new technology, harvesting oil sands, liquefying coal etc.), and since the oil industry is about a century and a half old, they have a huge technical and capital base to work from, compared to the guy in the basement lab scratching at the edges of the laws of physics. Coercion or conscription by government fiat is not needed at all, indeed by using tax dollars to support "approved" research and development, we can be forced down the wrong path (such as producing ethanol from corn, a net energy sink), while stripping away resources that could be used to support other ventures.

(edit to fix quotes)
 
Amazingly, the real threats to democracy are through the misuse of environmental law, rather than criminal law.  If you want a real scary read, try The Fisheries Act. 
 
a_majoor said:
Coercion or conscription by government fiat is not needed at all, indeed by using tax dollars to support "approved" research and development, we can be forced down the wrong path (such as producing ethanol from corn, a net energy sink), while stripping away resources that could be used to support other ventures.
(edit to fix quotes)

While I agree with this statement for sectors that are well entrenched and those that are enjoying a commodity boom thus overflowing with profits do not necessarily require government R&D funding to improve their production processes.  However, I disagree with this statement for fledgling industries such as those working on nanotechnology and biotechnology. 

My personal view on environmental issues and climate change is that the solution will lie mostly with technological innovation.  The government cannot, nor should not, attempt to massively influence consumer behaviour to solve these problems.  It can tinker at the edges but it would be impossible to dramatically change consumption patterns.  So, how do we get these changes.  We assume business as usual but insist on doing things better.  Firms can still make their widgets if they want to but you'll have to make them in a way that cause the least environmental impacts.  It's that constant improvement, through time, and through technological improvements that this can occur.

So, it should be policy that any government use their resources to act as a backstop for R&D should a lack of R&D occur in areas where promising achievements could be made.  Purists will say that if the market won't direct investment there, than there is no need.  However, markets have short term needs when environmental problems require long-term solutions.
 
To answer a_majoor, I'm not advocating converting large scales of Canada's wilderness to produce plants, I'm just saying that we have a large land mass that sustains a large plant population, and this plant population already takes a lot of CO2 out of the air. As for hybrids, I suppose I should have clarified that I mean gas/electric hybrids. I've never driven one, but I've taken gas/electric hybrid cabs a few times and I didn't notice any problems with the driving. Technologies like this that have become economically feasible ($25k-38k for Accord, Civic, or Camry hybrids), and I'm of the opinion that if you can afford a new SUV or truck, you can afford a hybrid (granted some people require certain vehicles for their jobs, but for others they have just become status symbols). The convenience factor doesn't seem to matter in gas/electric hybrids (I don't know anything about hydrogen fuel cells other than that they are being trialed on some BC Transit buses right now, so I won't comment on that), so the largest hurdle I see is getting the price down so that the technology is accessible for everyone. Many technologies aren't ready for commercialization, but given enough of an incentive to develop them, in a few years there could be several viable alternatives to fossil fuels, or at least suppliments to them.

I agree with Begbie in that we need to encourage R&D into areas not touched by the large corporations by providing funds to small scale university researchers and government labs, in order to stimulate interest in these areas. It's just hedging our bets, giving better chances of coming up with something worthwhile.
 
Edward Wegman, Chairman of the US National Academy of Sciences’ Committee on Theoretical and Applied Statistics, supports M&Ms conclusions ... as quoted by them in today's National Post (emphasis mine):

Anyway here’s our Op Ed entitled "Statisticians Blast Hockey Stick".

The recently released final report of a panel of three independent statisticians, chaired by an eminent statistics professor, Edward Wegman, Chairman of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences’ Committee on Theoretical and Applied Statistics, has resoundingly upheld criticisms of the famous “hockey stick” graph of Michael Mann and associates.

The Wegman report, which was submitted to the U.S. House Energy and Commerce Committee in July, stated that our published criticisms of Mann’s methodology were “valid and compelling” and stated that ”Mann’s assessments that the decade of the 1990s was the hottest decade of the millennium and that 1998 was the hottest year of the millennium cannot be supported by his analysis.”

This comes on the heels of an earlier report in June by a National Academy of Sciences panel chaired by Gerald North of Texas A&M, which also endorsed specific criticisms of Mann’s methodology and which concluded that no statistical confidence could be placed in his claims that temperatures in the 1990s exceeded those in the medieval warm period.

Wegman also criticized lack of independence in paleoclimate science at multiple levels – in the selection of proxies, in the reviewing of articles and in the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) process itself. In his testimony to the House Energy and Commerce Committee, he sarcastically questioned Mann’s citation of his own articles or articles by his students as supposedly “independent” verification of his results.

Given the importance that the IPCC and others have placed on historical temperature reconstructions, Wegman recommended that qualified statisticians be involved in the analysis and that the work be reviewed by truly independent experts.


In response to the Wegman report, Michael Mann issued a statement saying that it “simply uncritically parrots claims by two Canadians”. However, in testimony to the House Energy and Commerce Committee, the President of the National Academy of Sciences, Ralph Cicerone stated his belief that Dr. Wegman was well qualified to make the statements in his report.

In what follows we simply quote, verbatim, from the report and Wegman’s Congressional testimony. The report and hearings are available at http://energycommerce.house.gov/108/Hearings/07272006hearing2001/Wegman.pdf,
http://energycommerce.house.gov/108/Hearings/07192006hearing1987/hearing.htm and
http://energycommerce.house.gov/108/Hearings/07272006hearing2001/hearing.htm

WEGMAN EXCERPTS

The debate over Dr. Mann’s principal components methodology has been going on for nearly three years. When we got involved, there was no evidence that a single issue was resolved or even nearing resolution. Dr. Mann’s RealClimate.org website said that all of the Mr. McIntyre and Dr. McKitrick claims had been ‘discredited’. UCAR had issued a news release saying that all their claims were ‘unfounded’. Mr. McIntyre replied on the ClimateAudit.org website. The climate science community seemed unable to either refute McIntyre’s claims or accept them. The situation was ripe for a third-party review of the types that we and Dr. North’s NRC panel have done.

While the work of Michael Mann and colleagues presents what appears to be compelling evidence of global temperature change, the criticisms of McIntyre and McKitrick, as well as those of other authors mentioned are indeed valid.

“Where we have commonality, I believe our report and the [NAS] panel essentially agree.…We believe that our discussion together with the discussion from the NRC report should take the ‘centering’ issue off the table. [Mann’s] decentred methodology is simply incorrect mathematics… I am baffled by the claim that the incorrect method doesn’t matter because the answer is correct anyway. Method Wrong + Answer Correct = Bad Science.

The papers of Mann et al. in themselves are written in a confusing manner, making it difficult for the reader to discern the actual methodology and what uncertainty is actually associated with these reconstructions.

It is not clear that Dr. Mann and his associates even realized that their methodology was faulty at the time of writing the [Mann] paper.

We found MBH98 and MBH99 to be somewhat obscure and incomplete and the criticisms of MM03/05a/05b to be valid and compelling.

Overall, our committee believes that Mann’s assessments that the decade of the 1990s was the hottest decade of the millennium and that 1998 was the hottest year of the millennium cannot be supported by his analysis.

[The] fact that their paper fit some policy agendas has greatly enhanced their paper’s visibility. … The ‘hockey stick’ reconstruction of temperature graphic dramatically illustrated the global warming issue and was adopted by the IPCC and many governments as the poster graphic. The graphics’ prominence together with the fact that it is based on incorrect use of [principal components analysis] puts Dr. Mann and his co-authors in a difficult face-saving position.

We have been to Michael Mann’s University of Virginia website and downloaded the materials there. Unfortunately, we did not find adequate material to reproduce the MBH98 materials. We have been able to reproduce the results of McIntyre and McKitrick


Generally speaking, the paleoclimatology community has not recognized the validity of the [McIntyre and McKitrick] papers and has tended dismiss their results as being developed by biased amateurs. The paleoclimatology community seems to be tightly coupled as indicated by our social network analysis, has rallied around the [Mann] position, and has issued an extensive series of alternative assessments most of which appear to support the conclusions of MBH98/99.

Our findings from this analysis suggest that authors in the area of paleoclimate studies are closely connected and thus ‘independent studies’ may not be as independent as they might appear on the surface.

It is important to note the isolation of the paleoclimate community; even though they rely heavily on statistical methods they do not seem to be interacting with the statistical community.  Additionally, we judge that the sharing of research materials, data and results was haphazardly and grudgingly done. In this case we judge that there was too much reliance on peer review, which was not necessarily independent.

Based on the literature we have reviewed, there is no overarching consensus on [Mann’s work]. As analyzed in our social network, there is a tightly knit group of individuals who passionately believe in their thesis. However, our perception is that this group has a self-reinforcing feedback mechanism and, moreover, the work has been sufficiently politicized that they can hardly reassess their public positions without losing credibility.

It is clear that many of the proxies are re-used in most of the papers. It is not surprising that the papers would obtain similar results and so cannot really claim to be independent verifications.

“We note that the American Meteorological Society has a Committee on Probability and Statistics. I believe it is amazing for a committee whose focus is on statistics and probability that of the nine members only two are also members of the American Statistical Association, the premier statistical association in the United States, and one of those is a recent Ph. D. with an assistant professor appointment in a medical school. The American Meteorological Association recently held the 18th Conference on Probability and Statistics in the Atmospheric Sciences.. Of the 62 presenters at a conference with a focus on statistics and probability, only 8 … are members of the American Statistical Association. I believe that these two communities should be more engaged and if nothing else our report should highlight to both communities a need for additional cross-disciplinary ties."

Especially when massive amounts of public monies and human lives are at stake, academic work should have a more intense level of scrutiny and review. It is especially the case that authors of policy-related documents like the IPCC report, Climate Change 2001: The Scientific Basis, should not be the same people as those that constructed the academic papers.

http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=789
 
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