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Brad, I'm up in Petawawa...
So you you don't have a designated Liason Officer?
So you you don't have a designated Liason Officer?
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If that is what you think being a member of the military profession is all about, then their is no point debating the matter. I'll leave you to your platoon of 15 year olds.
As for the crux of the argument, Scott937 has basically covered arguments related to the characteristics of a professional body. Even ancillary positions, like Logistics and Medical Officers, are a essential part of the profession; the movement of supplies and the care for the wounded are essential parts of the application and management of organized violence on behalf of the state. You may see Officers from some trades argue that they are not soldiers but clerks/mechanics/whatever and thus are distinct from the fighting troops; I would look to that mindset as a detraction from the military profession that needs to be fixed and thus not a good reason to exclude volunteers from a youth organization within the ranks.
As well, I would suggest some research into the development of the professional Officer Corps, starting with Scharnhorst's reforms 200 years ago, to gain a better understanding of the position I am arguing from.
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Hopefully whatever,
You obviously are not following the line of my arguement. All you have been basing your membership to the Military Profession upon is your membership to a few Armed Forces associations as an "officer" and due to the fact that you have attended a few dinners and chatted up American officers while "maintaining a presence" (ie: not looking like an idiot). Other than that, you've given no serious answer for how the CIC fits into the military profession. Has your membership within the CIC made you a contributing member to the body of professionals who specialize in the command of troops to fight and sustain the land battle? Where, in any part of your role within your CIC, does the Army's doctrine and mission come into play? As I said before, you probably don't understand the concepts behind either the military profession or that snazzy Scroll someone decided to give you.
You obviously are not following the line of my arguement. All you have been basing your membership to the Military Profession upon is your membership to a few Armed Forces associations as an "officer" and due to the fact that you have attended a few dinners and chatted up American officers while "maintaining a presence" (ie: not looking like an idiot). Other than that, you've given no serious answer for how the CIC fits into the military profession. Has your membership within the CIC made you a contributing member to the body of professionals who specialize in the command of troops to fight and sustain the land battle? Where, in any part of your role within your CIC, does the Army's doctrine and mission come into play? As I said before, you probably don't understand the concepts behind either the military profession or that snazzy Scroll someone decided to give you.
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Having spent full time Class B contracts dealing with CIC officers, I would very much disagree that the inherant problems with cadet officers are a "few bad apples" with the exception of less than a half dozen, I wouldn't trust any of them to lead a parade, let alone a real soldier. Many I spoke to mentioned that the reason they were in the CIC is because they failed the physical, written or medical tests to get into the CF, and since the CIC has none of those requirements, they went there by default. I had 18 year-old 2Lts in the CIC who were trying to order me to tell them confidential medical information. I had Captains refuse to help me in a medical emergency, and instead made a 12 year-old kid lift a stretcher. I had Majors who tried to deny medical treatment to their own cadets, and other Majors who completely ignored sick chits because they disagreed with our treatment.
I also saw a course of CIC OCdts who completed their few weekends of training, and were handed a commission when they couldn't even stand at attention properly. Do you think these are the kind of people who are garnering respect for your organization?
Within this sea of incompetance, there were a few shining gems who seemed to actually know their job and tried very hard at it. They were by FAR the exception, rather than the rule. People wonder why the opinion of the CIC is so poor? Take a good hard look; a CIC officer gets a commission in 8 days and yet it takes 8 weeks for a reserve NCM just to complete basic training. Not only is this not in the same arena, we're not even playing the same sport. IS it any surprise that the CIC is treated with contempt? Do you honestly expect to get the respect and compliments from the soldiers who have spend months or years earning their single hook? Are you really surprised that these same soldiers hold you, your commission, your training, and your organization with a measure of contempt? The Reg force is to the Reserves what the CIC is to the Boy Scouts. The CIC are not trained to be soldiers, they are youth leaders.
I am in complete agreement with Infanteer with regards to the CIC taking something away from the remainder of the Officer Corps. Either make CIC officers soldiers and give them equivalent training to the reserves (of which they profess to be part), or remove them from the military. Between an 18 year old with a CIC commission in his hand, and a brand new private who just got off basic training, I'll take the private, hands down.
I also saw a course of CIC OCdts who completed their few weekends of training, and were handed a commission when they couldn't even stand at attention properly. Do you think these are the kind of people who are garnering respect for your organization?
Within this sea of incompetance, there were a few shining gems who seemed to actually know their job and tried very hard at it. They were by FAR the exception, rather than the rule. People wonder why the opinion of the CIC is so poor? Take a good hard look; a CIC officer gets a commission in 8 days and yet it takes 8 weeks for a reserve NCM just to complete basic training. Not only is this not in the same arena, we're not even playing the same sport. IS it any surprise that the CIC is treated with contempt? Do you honestly expect to get the respect and compliments from the soldiers who have spend months or years earning their single hook? Are you really surprised that these same soldiers hold you, your commission, your training, and your organization with a measure of contempt? The Reg force is to the Reserves what the CIC is to the Boy Scouts. The CIC are not trained to be soldiers, they are youth leaders.
I am in complete agreement with Infanteer with regards to the CIC taking something away from the remainder of the Officer Corps. Either make CIC officers soldiers and give them equivalent training to the reserves (of which they profess to be part), or remove them from the military. Between an 18 year old with a CIC commission in his hand, and a brand new private who just got off basic training, I'll take the private, hands down.
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Ghost that is a good question, not just specifically to H.A.S, but in general. Why would someone keen on the military, young, and who could meet the standards want to look after cadets, when they could be doing some pretty interesting stuff and leading soldiers. I know for myself, I spent 9 months in the CIL because, I wanted to fly and they gave me the oportunity, but I didn't supervise cadets or work in a Corps. In addition, I enrolled myself, back in the days before the CFRCs were involved. But I was just spinning my wheels until I could get into the army.
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the only reason i dont leave na d join the reservers or regs, is because my career is to good to give up. if anything ever happened to my job, i would transfer for sure. believe me i would love to be reg force, but right now, making a contribution is the only thing i can do. and me trying to make the best cadets, so that when they jump over to the reserves, you get a better product, i think that is better than doing nothing at all. for the reg force and reserve to grow, there has to be an interest in the CF, and i am trying my best to spark an interest in as many young canadians as i can
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Scott
There is a standard for the CIC to achieve the rank of Capt. You need to be in for 5 years and time must be spent at all previous ranks based on training and courses taken. The candidates must also PASS courses provided for their TRAINING so that they can move through the ranks. Positions at LHQ training centers must also be available. I don't see why you continue to compare CIC with Reserve or Reg. They are not the same and likely never will be. As a CIC officer I have little interest in combat. I need to be trained to handle KIDS. If you think supervising adults is tough then you need to go on a few Cadet exercises!! Youth are the future. Yes we(CIC) officers do make great recruiters and you can see the elements that we use to encourage enrollment to the CF. However you really need to look at the big picture here. We exist to train youth, not to fight, but to be better youth. That is our mandate. We take pride in what we do. I have never looked down upon any officer in the CIC. I don't think that a group of dedicated people who use a lot of their spare time to train youth need to be looked down on. My opinions are based on my own experiences in the CIC. I'm 29 and I'm an Lt. I have been with the CIC since 1996 and I was a Cadet for 6 1/2 years. Leadership is the key to success. I will do my best to lead even if it's not in battle. That is why I teach kids for the CF as a member of the CIC.
CHEERS
THE ARMY GUY
There is a standard for the CIC to achieve the rank of Capt. You need to be in for 5 years and time must be spent at all previous ranks based on training and courses taken. The candidates must also PASS courses provided for their TRAINING so that they can move through the ranks. Positions at LHQ training centers must also be available. I don't see why you continue to compare CIC with Reserve or Reg. They are not the same and likely never will be. As a CIC officer I have little interest in combat. I need to be trained to handle KIDS. If you think supervising adults is tough then you need to go on a few Cadet exercises!! Youth are the future. Yes we(CIC) officers do make great recruiters and you can see the elements that we use to encourage enrollment to the CF. However you really need to look at the big picture here. We exist to train youth, not to fight, but to be better youth. That is our mandate. We take pride in what we do. I have never looked down upon any officer in the CIC. I don't think that a group of dedicated people who use a lot of their spare time to train youth need to be looked down on. My opinions are based on my own experiences in the CIC. I'm 29 and I'm an Lt. I have been with the CIC since 1996 and I was a Cadet for 6 1/2 years. Leadership is the key to success. I will do my best to lead even if it's not in battle. That is why I teach kids for the CF as a member of the CIC.
CHEERS
THE ARMY GUY
K
King Arthur
Guest
Well.welll... That's what happens when you go on vacation... I missed all this good debating! 
I have witnessed CIC bashing for many years now and at all levels and it all boils down to the same thing: a lack of understanding of our challenges and mission, but more importantly a lack of recognition for what we contribute to the Canadian Forces and Canada. The Canadian Forces are not only responsible to fight wars, but also have a domestic mission to help communities throughout our country. I cannot imagine a more noble and interesting mission that the one I have as a CIC... I am a proud representative of the CF and I am responsible for training better citizens (30% of which later join the CF by the way... with a solid background in leadership, drill, IT, map and compass, GPS, etc.). The role of an army is also to prevent war and ensure the protection of its communities. We do this very well mind you.
It would be interesting for a change to see our colleagues from other branches of the CF recognize our great contribution to Canada instead of focusing on what we do not have (and do not need..). I learned to use a rifle when I did my BOQ and never used it after that... The day that the CIC is called upon to provide direct support to the RegF, we will receive the appropriate training for our mission, just as other member of the CF receive prior to their mission.
The CIC receive the specialized training that it needs to conduct its specialized mission, there is nothing wrong with that. We are not full-time soldiers because we have civilian jobs and it is a question of choice. Stop comparing us with the RegF or even with the Militia because this is what we are not. We are Youth leaders that have been appointed by the Canadian Government to do a job and we do it well. If you want to compare us to the Boy Scouts or Minor Hockey Coaches, be it, but at least be honest enough to acknowledge that we do a superior job and that what we do is not necessarily that easy. It takes a special kind of individual to willingly chose to take care of teenagers and we are this type individuals. I am proud of my colleagues of the RegF and the ResF for their particular training and capability, maybe it is time for you to be proud of us and give us credit.
The vast majority of CIC are dedicated and professional individuals that deserve to be recognized. We have young members that need to mature and grow, but this is our challenge to handle. Are we members of the military profession - Yes. Do we have the same qualifications - Thankfully NO because this is not what we need. Are we good at what we are doing - You bet we are!
I have witnessed CIC bashing for many years now and at all levels and it all boils down to the same thing: a lack of understanding of our challenges and mission, but more importantly a lack of recognition for what we contribute to the Canadian Forces and Canada. The Canadian Forces are not only responsible to fight wars, but also have a domestic mission to help communities throughout our country. I cannot imagine a more noble and interesting mission that the one I have as a CIC... I am a proud representative of the CF and I am responsible for training better citizens (30% of which later join the CF by the way... with a solid background in leadership, drill, IT, map and compass, GPS, etc.). The role of an army is also to prevent war and ensure the protection of its communities. We do this very well mind you.
It would be interesting for a change to see our colleagues from other branches of the CF recognize our great contribution to Canada instead of focusing on what we do not have (and do not need..). I learned to use a rifle when I did my BOQ and never used it after that... The day that the CIC is called upon to provide direct support to the RegF, we will receive the appropriate training for our mission, just as other member of the CF receive prior to their mission.
The CIC receive the specialized training that it needs to conduct its specialized mission, there is nothing wrong with that. We are not full-time soldiers because we have civilian jobs and it is a question of choice. Stop comparing us with the RegF or even with the Militia because this is what we are not. We are Youth leaders that have been appointed by the Canadian Government to do a job and we do it well. If you want to compare us to the Boy Scouts or Minor Hockey Coaches, be it, but at least be honest enough to acknowledge that we do a superior job and that what we do is not necessarily that easy. It takes a special kind of individual to willingly chose to take care of teenagers and we are this type individuals. I am proud of my colleagues of the RegF and the ResF for their particular training and capability, maybe it is time for you to be proud of us and give us credit.
The vast majority of CIC are dedicated and professional individuals that deserve to be recognized. We have young members that need to mature and grow, but this is our challenge to handle. Are we members of the military profession - Yes. Do we have the same qualifications - Thankfully NO because this is not what we need. Are we good at what we are doing - You bet we are!
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Well I would have to say that sums up the way I feel about the CIC as well. Thanks for the comment King. Glad to have you back from vacation. I may be new here, but I have been with the CIC for a while now and I have seen both sides of the coin. I was a young and cocky ex cadet. Then I learned that you need to put into the unit what you want to get out of it. From that point on I have been true to myself and to the unit and CIC. I take pride in what I do. My rank was not just handed to me after BOQ. I spent 2 years at the rank of Ocdt and I'm now an Lt. The system is not what it could be, however it is at least a good stab at it. I hope that we can enact the changes together that will take the CIC and the CF in the right direction for the future. I really think that we have to do what we can with what we have for now but we can try to fix problems as they occur and we can send word to the top of our chain of command to fix things beyond our control. That is how the army is supposed to work isn't it??? Good luck to you in your area. I will do what I can here in the EOA.
Cheers!!!
The Army Guy
Cheers!!!
The Army Guy
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EOA - Eastern Ontario Area
Good post King. Having played in both sides (PRes and CIC) I have seen the good and the bad from both houses. As long as everyone can remember that the role is clearly defined for each component of the Res Force, and this includes our role as mandated by the VCDS, there should be no argument. We exist to manage a program for the CF and you are right that we generally do it well. This is not to say that perhaps there could be improvements with some of our younger officers, and I believe we should be asked to meet the same physical and education standards as the PRes, as this will allow us to achieve our mission more effectively. If the goals of the program are clear, we should have the best staff available to carry out that mission.
I have been lucky to get support from local Reg force and PRes pers quite often, mostly ex-cadets from all facets of the CCM, and they understand the unique nature of the mission and the benefits of the program. What the masses need to remember is to not broad brush the CIC based on specific individuals. As with any other officer or NCM, you must evaluate the man, his skills, and how he handles the situations he is in.
Like others, I have gone back to the cadet world because my civilian career does not afford me the time or flexibility to continue making a full contribution to the PRes. So I have taken what I learned there as an Oficer and NCM and can now use that experience to build up Canada's youth. I am simply contributing to the long term mission of the CF in a different way.
There have been a number of statements in recent parts of this thread that I think should be cleared up. A CIC oficer does not get their commission in 8 days. It is true that the CIC BOQ is 10 days in duration, but these are targeted and focussed days of training. When an Offcier arrives at their BOQ they are expected to already posses much of the knowledge that would normally be taught to recruits of other components of the Reserve Force in the first few weeks of their training. They are expected to write and pass 4 performance checks the first day on a number of items that are provided as self study. The approach is to limit time in the classroom due to budgetary restriction, and little else. It would be ideal if these officers could be in class to learn the same skills just like everyone else, but they program has found another way to do it. Also, simply passing BOQ does not mean the officer will receive their commission. They must gain experience in all facets of the operation of their unit (LHQ, TC, etc.) and receive recommendations from both the Unit Commanding Offcier (their direct supervisor) and the civilian side of the organization. A junior officer who has not perfromed well will not be promoted quickly. On average most CIC officers spend at least 2 years as an Officer Cadet, in my expereince. As for promotion beyond that, yes there are courses, yes you need to do more time with a unit or training center, but ultimately you must spend time developing cadets.
I guess that's all I have for the moment, but should I think of anything else I'll post it.
Good post King. Having played in both sides (PRes and CIC) I have seen the good and the bad from both houses. As long as everyone can remember that the role is clearly defined for each component of the Res Force, and this includes our role as mandated by the VCDS, there should be no argument. We exist to manage a program for the CF and you are right that we generally do it well. This is not to say that perhaps there could be improvements with some of our younger officers, and I believe we should be asked to meet the same physical and education standards as the PRes, as this will allow us to achieve our mission more effectively. If the goals of the program are clear, we should have the best staff available to carry out that mission.
I have been lucky to get support from local Reg force and PRes pers quite often, mostly ex-cadets from all facets of the CCM, and they understand the unique nature of the mission and the benefits of the program. What the masses need to remember is to not broad brush the CIC based on specific individuals. As with any other officer or NCM, you must evaluate the man, his skills, and how he handles the situations he is in.
Like others, I have gone back to the cadet world because my civilian career does not afford me the time or flexibility to continue making a full contribution to the PRes. So I have taken what I learned there as an Oficer and NCM and can now use that experience to build up Canada's youth. I am simply contributing to the long term mission of the CF in a different way.
There have been a number of statements in recent parts of this thread that I think should be cleared up. A CIC oficer does not get their commission in 8 days. It is true that the CIC BOQ is 10 days in duration, but these are targeted and focussed days of training. When an Offcier arrives at their BOQ they are expected to already posses much of the knowledge that would normally be taught to recruits of other components of the Reserve Force in the first few weeks of their training. They are expected to write and pass 4 performance checks the first day on a number of items that are provided as self study. The approach is to limit time in the classroom due to budgetary restriction, and little else. It would be ideal if these officers could be in class to learn the same skills just like everyone else, but they program has found another way to do it. Also, simply passing BOQ does not mean the officer will receive their commission. They must gain experience in all facets of the operation of their unit (LHQ, TC, etc.) and receive recommendations from both the Unit Commanding Offcier (their direct supervisor) and the civilian side of the organization. A junior officer who has not perfromed well will not be promoted quickly. On average most CIC officers spend at least 2 years as an Officer Cadet, in my expereince. As for promotion beyond that, yes there are courses, yes you need to do more time with a unit or training center, but ultimately you must spend time developing cadets.
I guess that's all I have for the moment, but should I think of anything else I'll post it.
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The Army Guy said:Well I would have to say that sums up the way I feel about the CIC as well. Thanks for the comment King. Glad to have you back from vacation. I may be new here, but I have been with the CIC for a while now and I have seen both sides of the coin. I was a young and cocky ex cadet. Then I learned that you need to put into the unit what you want to get out of it. From that point on I have been true to myself and to the unit and CIC. I take pride in what I do. My rank was not just handed to me after BOQ. I spent 2 years at the rank of Ocdt and I'm now an Lt. The system is not what it could be, however it is at least a good stab at it. I hope that we can enact the changes together that will take the CIC and the CF in the right direction for the future. I really think that we have to do what we can with what we have for now but we can try to fix problems as they occur and we can send word to the top of our chain of command to fix things beyond our control. That is how the army is supposed to work isn't it??? Good luck to you in your area. I will do what I can here in the EOA.
Cheers!!!
The Army Guy
Well being in the CIC for the past Ten years I have seen the changes with younger officers I have seent he 23 Year old Capts and have seen the 60 year old OCdts,all with the same goals. To work with youth the future of our great country that is CANADA
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Welcome back King Arther:
I never disputed that. I didn't want to my arguement to focus on less then stellar examples of CIC Officers, because that is outside of the issue. Yes, you conduct a specialized mission. However, it is a mission that is unrelated to the profession of arms.
Exactly, I do not wish to compare you Reg Force or Reserve Officers, because that is what you are not. For this reason, it is unnecessary to include you with the commissioned Ranks, as all it does is confuse and obfuscate the profession.
I wouldn't go that far. There are some exceptional Coaches, Boy Scout Leaders, and members of community groups/religious groups that do an excellent job at leading the youth of our Country. Don't try and pretend that because you wear a uniform that you do a superior job. I will give credit where credit is due, however, I do not see any reason to extend that credit into incorporating your position as a youth leader into the Officer Corps with its inherent authority and responsibilities.
You are not part of the military profession, the profession of arms. If you have a different view on what the profession of arms is, I would be interested to hear it, as I am getting the suspicion that you all feel being a member of the profession of arms entails putting on an officer's stripes and getting saluted from 14 year olds.
I never disputed that. I didn't want to my arguement to focus on less then stellar examples of CIC Officers, because that is outside of the issue. Yes, you conduct a specialized mission. However, it is a mission that is unrelated to the profession of arms.
Exactly, I do not wish to compare you Reg Force or Reserve Officers, because that is what you are not. For this reason, it is unnecessary to include you with the commissioned Ranks, as all it does is confuse and obfuscate the profession.
I wouldn't go that far. There are some exceptional Coaches, Boy Scout Leaders, and members of community groups/religious groups that do an excellent job at leading the youth of our Country. Don't try and pretend that because you wear a uniform that you do a superior job. I will give credit where credit is due, however, I do not see any reason to extend that credit into incorporating your position as a youth leader into the Officer Corps with its inherent authority and responsibilities.
You are not part of the military profession, the profession of arms. If you have a different view on what the profession of arms is, I would be interested to hear it, as I am getting the suspicion that you all feel being a member of the profession of arms entails putting on an officer's stripes and getting saluted from 14 year olds.
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OK. So I would just like to add that as a CIC officer, I don't think that I am different from any other youth group leader, or more superior. I believe that we as a group do a good job and are trained well enough to meet or exceed the standard set by NDHQ and D Cadets. Our job can be applied to other aspects of life however we are not military members in the combat arms. We do a job. That job has little to do with arms. Do we think that being a member of the military profession entitles us to wear strips and be saluted by 14 year old's? Only if we earned those stripes!! Here I speak for myself and others will disagree or agree as they might. It is not my place to decide weather or not we should have the same or similar training as our Pres or RegF counterparts. I for one would enjoy the challenge of some type of arms training. I'm not so sure the parents of todays cadets would be happy with it though. This may be one of the reasons that we don't get the same training. Parents are becoming more apprehensive of "combat" style programmes. Teen shootings and other violent teen acts have hurt the cadet movement, and made it harder for us to train cadets in any kind of combat roll. "War games" have been renamed "Night Navigation Training". These are just a few of the differences that split the PRes and RegF from the CIC. We are not the same, as I said before. We likely never will be.
Cheers!!
The Army Guy
Cheers!!
The Army Guy
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