Go beyond your local experience...

[combat_medic]

Che: No, no one has actually responded to Infanteer's argument. There have been a lot of hurt feelings, and people trying to justify their own hard work, but no one as yet has constructed a logical, intelligent argument to explain the requirement of the CIC to be commissioned.

Oh, and for those who think that leading children is the same as leading soldiers in battle; you obviously have no experience doing either or you wouldn't have made such a completely idiotic and ignorant statement. Also, as a former member of the Girl Guides, I can tell you first hand that it is VERY similar to the cadets. I learned fieldcraft in guiding that I'm still applying to my military career, and was often more advanced than the training I received in the military. Just because you don't like the comparison, doesn't make it inaccurate.

hopefully airborne soon: no, not all members of the CF are on duty 24/7. Unless you're a class B or C reservist, you are not on duty unless you have signed a pay sheet. As a member of the CF, I would expect you would have known that.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

 Ex-Dragoon i forget, was it you that wanted the info in cadets with battle honours?

I was the first one to ask, and Michael O'Leary - our resident expert on battle honours - was interested also. 

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

H.A.S.

Now I think the whole forum is interested, so please post it here when[if] you find them.
Thanks

 

[chalk1]

Wow. I thought this would`ve died a while ago. Quite an interesting debate going on here, and a lot of thin skin. Much of this arguing is being done by the older, wiser heads in the CF who are members of this fine forum, yet has anyone considered the perspective of the cadet?

We have here CIC members debating with members of other branches of the CF. CIC officers are arguing that their task is also as difficult, yet the other members of the CF disagree, stating that the CIC does nothing to "help win the land battle".  Now, a comparison has already been done on the two, but this is just what I have thought as a cadet, as well as what I have received as feedback from cadets Ive led on various training exercises/functions. A cadet`s first encounter with an officer is usually through the cadet organisation, which is led by officers who have relatively little military training. Of what I have seen, most have absolutely NO concept of the role of an officer is as well as that of an NCO, nor any feel for the relationship that is supposed to be there between the 2 ( CSM and coy OC, etc). This results in a senior cadet, who is already burdened with homework in high school, possibly a part-time job, being used merely as a mouthpiece for drill. I can't say how often Ive been to inter-corps activities and have seen officers yelling at their cadets. To you ladies and gents in the other branches: How often do you even see your officers? How often do they have to yell, or for that matter, how often do they micro-manage by stealing the job of their cadets/NCO's? These kids we lead are very impressionable, and this causes a fundamental impact on their thoughts of leadership.

Comparing this with the...oh, I don't know...Infantry officer, who has the most stressfull job on the planet, is in top shape physically and mentally and can handle an immense amount of stress while simultaneously fighting through to the objective and keeping his troop's welfare in mind. I must say that the best officers who have trained me as well as Ive worked under to train others, are either volunteers from the Regs and PRes or have been CFR'd after retiring from the CF. The type of training they have under their belts allow them to develop their cadets to higher standards in all areas of cadet training. To those who state that the CIC do a fine job as it is now, you can`t object to the oppurtunity to make better cadets by improving yourself.Perhaps more challenging training for CIC officers to develop their leadership under harsher conditions and truly learn the ethic of self-sacrifice for the sake of your team and your troops is the answer. (Id really like to put in a quote here from Starship Troopers from the beginning of the chapter at Camp Currie...Infanteer knows what Im talking about, but seeing as he's quoted that book enough I shall refrain from doing so ).

Anytime I have led cadets as a cadet NCO under leadership by an officer with previous "real" military experience the sentiment I have felt from my cadets and peers is one of a heartfelt earned respect for the officer.

 

[Jarnhamar]

So far the main question (As far as i see) which is being asked is,
Do CIC officers require a commission from the queen to perform their duties.

Between the arguments and counter arguments I would say those saying NO have the strongest argument by far.  

I don't see a requirement for the CIC to be commissioned officers. Those arguing the CIC play a vital role in the CF haven't won me over with their arguments.

As a CIC officer i can transfer to the PRes and keep my commission, so can i ask if i do that would you have more respect for me then?

If you asked me this I would say no i wouldn't have more respect for you. I'd have the same respect for you as a person in the cadets as i do with you in the reserves.  Would i respect your authority as a higher rank than me with 8 years in the reserves OR than a warrant with 20 years in? Yup, thats how the army works. Your an "officer" so in that situation you and your experience commanding civilian children would out rank me. (I think you can read between the lines at the irony a little).   Would I respect you as a leader? hell no. Honestly who would? Your comming from a youth organization and plopping yourselves in the army (or reserves whatever).  You could argue that you always were in the army because you have a commission but we all know it's not the same thing.   You'd lack the time in, training, I'd argue mentality and most of all you haven't pr oven yourself.  Proving yourself is a pretty big thing. Even a reserve private or corporal transferring to the regular force WHOM doesn't do the battle school over again has a huge disadvantage because his or her peers will feel the soldier hasn't proven themselves yet.

As was pointed out, there is not a high standard when it comes to being in the CIC.  Physical fitness, medical disabilities and education. No one is trying to use this as a slam against the CIC (i don't think) it's just that a high standard is NOT required for what the CIC does. JUST it;s being argued a commission from the queen is NOT required for what the CIC do.

As to our guest who thinks leading children is like leading soldiers, that comment doesn't really deserve a reply. I think your honking your own horn a little if you think leading the former qualifies you for leading the latter.

 

[winchable]

I am still waiting for a valid response to infanteers argument.
He is by no means slamming the CIC from what I can see, and their personalities, physical fitness standards and even their ability to lead was not a part of his discourse.

This whole topic is circular until someone addresses his ideas and quite frankly, I'm sick of seeing repetitive arguments.
I'd urge the proponents of CIC commissions to speak now with a reasonable response or this thread will go the way of those which came before!
So I'll ask again, either someone point me to the response to infanteers argument, provide one, or the almighty's hand shall smiteth the thread.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Quote
As a CIC officer i can transfer to the PRes and keep my commission, so can i ask if i do that would you have more respect for me then?

I thought you guys were arguing you were PRes, why would you have to transfer to it. You may be able to transfer to a PRes Unit, if they would take you, unproven and untrained.
So say you do. Are you saying you can come straight in, say as a Lt, and lead the troop on the next ex? Do you know the job? Or how bout if your a Capt, you going to come straight to the ex and be the BC? I think not. You don't have the training, and that's the crux. We can't afford to pay someone for being dead weight. While the Queen's Commision is to be respected, respect for the individual is earned. Don't try bite off more than you can chew. Maybe you could come in and be a PAFFO or something harmless like that. (Apologies to the PAFFO's out there)

 

[big_castor]

The uniform and the commission are the tangible symbols of the interest that the CF has in the cadet program.   Period.   That's why we defend it â “ because we think the Cadet program is an asset to the CF and that members of the CF should be involved in it.   Nothing more, nothing else.

Debating the technical definition of an Officer or of a professional has nothing to do with it.   Counting the number of idiot on each side of the fence is not the issue.   The cadet program and the CIC provide a specific environment with specifics relations between individuals and a set of values that are unique.   It attracts a certain number of kids and adults because of that special environment and because of the links to the CF.    

Having us has full fledged members of the CF is an opportunity to set a higher standard.    We can emulate.   Officers and senior NCM's can share their experience with us and help us get better.   I do my job correctly and I ask a the same of my staff because I can ask myself : is this what could be expected of an officer ?

I'm well aware of the usual faults of our Branch and of it's members and I'm sorry that some of you had generally negative experiences with the CIC.   But the only thing I really ask of the Reg and Reserve   (both officers and NCM) that I meet is : treat me with at least the minimum amount of respect required.   If your job is to support me or my unit, do so with professionalism.   If I have nothing to do with you, I wont even bother you.   We are all, unless things change, members of the same organisation and should act accordingly.

 

[Inch]

Sqn CO, that's about the best explanation that I've heard and I fully respect it. A request for Cadet Liason Officers has just come down the chain and I'm thinking of doing it to, as you said, help the CICs get better and to enhance their knowledge and abilities. A worthwhile investment of my time I would hope.

Cheers.

 

[Excolis]

recceguy>>  not at all, i am just saying you can.  you can transfer in as a 2Lt and have to take all the training required to do the job you are getting into.  i am not saying nor have i ever said i could jump in and do the same job as your officers do.  I just get pissy when there is a cloud over the CIC because of a few bad apples.  i know a few ofthem in Windsor, but there are quite a few good officers in our city as well.  i guess it is all on your experiences with the cic.....

 

[beach_bum]

As a CIC officer i can transfer to the PRes and keep my commission, so can i ask if i do that would you have more respect for me then?  

Actually, a CIC officer can not transfer to the PRes or to the Reg F.  If a CIC officer wanted to become an Officer in a PRes unit, they would have to apply like any one else.  They would have to go to CFRC and write the CFAT, do a med, ERC, interview and also the PT test.  Because they do not have to write the CFAT, do the PT test or meet the same medical standards that everyone else does, they can not transfer.  It is in the books.  I am on leave until next Tuesday, but if you would like, I can find the Reference for this.

 

[King Arthur]

I am almost sorry I got this thread started and I got involved.  I was getting used to ingore people that did not take the time to learn about the CIC before making harsh statements.

As long as RegF try to gauge our value as officers against the training they receive or even our capability to do their jobs, this will go nowhere.  Our value as officers must not be defined by our ability to lead troops in combat, but rather by our ability and qualification to deliver the mandate that was issued to us by the CDS and the Canadian Government. We do not possess the same level of expertise that you guys have and we do not need it, the same can be said of you. 

As I said in a previous posting, the CF's mission goes way beyond getting ready for war.  The CIC has been created to support one of the domestic aims of the CF.  Yep... we provide a service and we are trained to do it properly  and commissionned by the Queen. 

Being that some think that I have a thin skin and am too emotional, I will withdraw for this discussion and go back to fulfilling the mandate bestowed upon me by my superiors.

The minute that I feel that people get their noses out of books and take the time to look at the evolution of the CF and its mandates, I will return and contribute.  Nothing against a god reading once in a while, but not when the book is thrown at me.  None of us (you and me) need a commission to do his job as I stated earlier, what we need is to be competent and good at it.

Cheers!

Good luck everyone with your careers! 

 

[muskrat89]

This has to be the most exasparating thread in which I have ever participated. For the umpteenth time, to everyone except Squadron CO:

NO ONE IS QUESTIONING YOUR VALUE
NO ONE IS QUESTIONING YOUR MISSION
NO ONE IS QUESTIONING YOUR DEDICATION
NO ONE IS WONDERING WHAT YOU DO
NO ONE IS PONDERING YOUR EFFECTIVENESS
NO ONE IS DOUBTING YOUR PROFESSIONAL ATTITUDES

WE WANT TO KNOW WHY A CIL OFFICER NEEDS A ROYAL COMMISSION TO EFFECTIVELY DO THEIR TASK.

Is that really so hard to fathom?????     Squadron CO finally gave a reasonable answer. Thanks, Sir

This is utterly ridiculous    :

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Personally, I've had enough of this, it pales to the ridiculous.

!!!!!!! STAT !!!!!!!​

 

[Scott]

Lock?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Your wish is my command oh hairy kilted one!