Go beyond your local experience...

[Inch]

Get educated? Please, that's what my point has been all along, I am educated in the profession of arms. I'm not talking about trades training, I'm talking about training as a professional officer.   We all have a common base and that's the 14 weeks of basic, doctrine and professional development.   Are Infantry officers trained to my level, no but I am also not trained to their level.   You're talking MOC training, I'm talking about the professional officer development, we all go to the same staff school, regardless of MOC.  

You keep bringing the reserves into this argument and although this may be an unpopular statement, they are not professional soldiers/officers either.   I research and buy stocks, does that make me a professional stock broker? Not by any stretch of the imagination.   Being professional (the adjective) and being a professional (the noun) are two different things.   A professional is called such because they do it day in and day out, the CIC and reserves are not the same.   When a reservist goes on tour, they cease being a reservist and become a regular, thus making them a professional soldier/officer.

I am not trying to prove my superiority or that I even am superior over the CIC, I'm simply stating that a professional does their job everyday, not just evenings and weekends. I am a professional officer and a professional pilot, that's what I do everyday so don't insult me by saying that a CIC officer volunteering 130 evenings/day a year is at the same level of professional development.

 

[King Arthur]

Get educated? Please, that's what my point has been all along, I am educated in the profession of arms. Get educated about the CIC is what I said...

You keep bringing the reserves into this argument and although this may be an unpopular statement, they are not professional soldiers/officers either.   Wow, now we are getting somewhere... to the top of your hill where it must be very lonely with your professional friends.

A professional is called such because they do it day in and day out, the CIC and reserves are not the same.  The CIC is responsible for their members 365 days a year. They are a corps of officers that have a specific purpose.

I'm simply stating that a professional does their job everyday, not just evenings and weekends. This is a false assumption that distorts your reasoning, a professional does his job when he needs to do his job. You are a member of a profession with a specific set of skills, so am I and my colleagues.
I am a professional officer and a professional pilot, that's what I do everyday so don't insult me by saying that a CIC officer volunteering 130 evenings/day a year is at the same level of professional development. I could not care less if you are insulted.   A CIC is not at the same level of professional development, and it not be to become skilled and professional and so are not the Reserves.

See, the problem lies greatly in that you are trying to put the RegF on a pedestal by itself to ruleon the rest of the CF as if only you guys knew the gospel. Open your horizons a little bit and try to come to grips with the fact that the corps of CF officers is composed of more than the RegF and that we all have specific and different jobs to do, all of which we are good at and all of which are complementary within the context of the CF missions and responsibilities.

 

[Inch]

Yes, my hill will be very lonely with the other 50+ thousand full time professionals that I have the privilege of calling my peers. I've made my point, I understand your's but you don't seem to want to understand mine. I digress.

Cheers

 

[Inch]

Another point about reservists. You guys are valuable assets to the CF, you fill holes that need to be filled and make our jobs a lot easier having reliable, qualified and professional minded people avail to help. Kudos.

 

[King Arthur]

Another point about reservists. You guys are valuable assets to the CF, you fill holes that need to be filled and make our jobs a lot easier having reliable, qualified and professional minded people avail to help. Kudos.

See... that was not so difficult.  BZ to you guys too, you make us proud and serve a good role models for our cadets.

 

[King Arthur]

Yes, my hill will be very lonely with the other 50+ thousand full time professionals that I have the privilege of calling my peers. I've made my point, I understand your's but you don't seem to want to understand mine. I digress.

Oh but I do understand yours, really... I simply do not agree with the basis upon which you elaborate your reasoning.  My approach is inclusive and yours is divisive. What the CIC wants and deserves is respect from their colleagues of the CF and I have yet to read or hear one solid argument that would make it right to speak of my branch and colleague CICs in the way some do. The moment that you will realize what great benefits we bring to the CF team, you will stop seeing us as a nuisance and a bunch of no-good, uneducated, undeserving, spoiled and illeterate kids. It is that simple.

 

[Infanteer]

You keep bringing the reserves into this argument and although this may be an unpopular statement, they are not professional soldiers/officers either.

Actually Inch, I find myself agreeing with you on that statement.   Huntington stated this in his thesis, and I tend to agree with it.   Although reservist officers can be very compentent at the tactical level and in the techniques of soldiering, positions at the operational level and above is pretty much unavailable to the reservist officer as he does not have the time to dedicate himself to all the aspects of the profession.   They are, in all aspects, amateurs rather then professionals, where the term professionals in this sense means member of the profession of arms as opposed to carrying out ones duties in a professional manner.   Reservist or reg force, every soldier in Canada is a highly trained volunteer which puts their abilities over that of a poor conscript.

Huntington never really made room for Enlisted soldiers and NCO's within the profession of arms, rather they were tradesmen and fell under a different category of systems and abilities.

King Arthur

I don't feel my proposal describes the Cadets very well as the first sentence states that the organization would be removed from the military altogether.   Obviously, the Cadets would be a different organization if this was done.

  My approach is inclusive and yours is divisive. What the CIC wants and deserves is respect from their colleagues of the CF and I have yet to read or hear one solid argument that would make it right to speak of my branch and colleague CICs in the way some do.

I've yet to see a convincing counter argument to the notion of the "military profession" as I have described based on the works of Huntington and others.   This is a notion based upon 200 years of evolution of the profession of arms that started with the Reforms of Scharnhorst and his Militarische Gesellschaft during the Napoleonic Wars.   The system that these reformers built was emulated by the militaries of every industrialized nation at some point up to 1918 and is the foundation of military excellence.   In my research on the subject of the military profession and my own experience in the military (both Reg and Reserve), I've yet to see "Cadet Officer" or "Youth Group Leader" pop up as a relevent topic, therefore I see any claims of the CIC belonging to the profession as so defined as unnecessary and distracting to the profession.

Until you can provide my with reasons why this definition is unsound and that the CIC should be included, I am going to avoid discussing the issue of Cadet Officers, because it is obvious that none of them either understand or wish to attempt to address the underlying premise of the military profession.

 

[Excolis]

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/1390/cic.html

just posting this again incase noone seen it among all the fighting..  

cheers

 

[muskrat89]

*sigh* Infanteer (and Inch, Scott, etc.) I see (and agree with) your point. In my opinion, though - you are trying to make a theoretical argument to some folks for whom this is an emotional issue.

I would expect that if you walked into the Volunteer Firehall in Digby, NS or Balfour, BC and proclaimed that they weren't true members of the profession of firefighters - that it would fall on deaf ears. It would probably make them dig in their heels, get defensive, and reject any logic that you wanted to offer up. It would not help to cite how the science of firefighting has evolved in the past 200 years, to the professional (fulltime) firefighters of today.

To the CIL Officers - The St.John Ambulance and Volunteer Fire Departments both have rank structures. They both have (often) youth Divisions. They both contribute greatly to their Communities. They both will certainly get called upon in the event of a National Disaster. They do not have a CF Affiliation. That being the only theoretical difference, why do they (CIL) need a Queen's Commission? I think that is the main point being made. Not an attack on your own value or performance. I think, ultimately, it is simply a rhetorical question to which you are answering emotionally, instead of rhetorically.

By the way, my father was a (non-professional) RSM, and had 27 years or so in. My mother was a CIL Officer, and a Cadets Corps CO.

 

[Infanteer]

I ask why not? Is leading a corps of youth not the same as leading a corps of 'soldiers' (parttime/fulltime?)?

???
Your kidding, right?

 

[muskrat89]

Matsu - did you read any of what I wrote? I acknowledged your position, while reiterating that Infanteer et al were not questioning your value or ability, but were, rhetorically speaking -  pondering your NEED for a Royal Commission.... in order to do your job...

I was the best TSM that the Regiment had ever seen, and if anyone deserved a new truck, it was me. That being said, someone decided that I didn't NEED a new truck.

5 pages of posturing, and I even come in and explain it in farmer-speak, and you guys still don't get the argument..... :

Inch, Infanteer, Scott... back to you...    ;D

 

[catalyst]

This is a very interesting argument. I'm still finalizing my take on the argument. I don't think I know enough about the CIC to make an informed decision. I am a leader of one of those 'youth groups; that people keep mentioning. However I do not appreciate the following comment:

"CHAP is one example that people who know the "old school" ways have begun calling cadets Girl Guides and Boy Scouts. "

Um, excuse me? Cadets were and never will be Girl Guides. Stop compairing after-chap-cadets with our organization.  These are two different DISTINCT organizations. I find it insulting.

 

[Matsu]

I deleted my last comment b/c I felt it was being taken the wrong way. Muskrat my last comment was not intended for you and yes thank you I understand your farmer-speak as you say. Oh, and I'm sorry you didn't get your new truck...but what does that have to do with the CIC?!? Did they some how prevent you from getting it?! Re: whether or not CIC officers should get their commission...I haven't posted anything b/c I am as of yet undecided. I am thinking of learning more about the CIC and I am also learning a great deal from all of these postings which I find interesting.

Why do officers get commission? Be it in the CIC or in the reg force. It was mentioned that a CIC officer could not lead soldiers, I ask why not? Is leading a corps of youth not the same as leading a corps of 'soldiers'? Are CIC officers that incompetent in your views? Would then a reg officer be unable to lead/direct a corps of youth? If one cannot work with the other are they incompetent enough to be removed from the forces? It would be interesting to ask this question to my friends who do both...I think I'll ask them the next time I'm at mess.And no I'm not kidding b/c I've seen it happen but in some people's opinion it can't happen so I'll get back to all of you on that one later.

Re: the Girl Guide/Boy Scout comment, I also don't like the comment but it has been said multiple times. We are distinct and I'm not saying that we aren't. CHAP is a great program and I believe in it. I am one to correct my mistakes, therefore, I will not speak for others. As someone who came into the cadet program on the cusp I have had an interesting experience learning from both sides of the fence. But I'll allow the others to express their own views of the CHAP program on their own.

Oh re: battalion honours for some cadet corps I remember someone mentioning to me that it was due to the reg res corps that they are affiliated with. I know that some army cadet corps get to wear different barrettes. *shrugs* not sure if it'll help

Frankly, all in all you can say whatever you want about me. I'm open to constructive criticism. As long as I make my cadets proud to be who they are and have my peers respect the hard work that I do all your opinions of me don't matter.

I salute ALL who serve...Lest We Forget...If you love your freedom, Thank a Vet.    

 

[Simpleton]

You keep bringing the reserves into this argument and although this may be an unpopular statement, they are not professional soldiers/officers either.   I research and buy stocks, does that make me a professional stock broker? Not by any stretch of the imagination.   Being professional (the adjective) and being a professional (the noun) are two different things.   A professional is called such because they do it day in and day out, the CIC and reserves are not the same.   When a reservist goes on tour, they cease being a reservist and become a regular, thus making them a professional soldier/officer.

The Concise Oxford Dictionary describes 'professional' thus:

professional (-sho-) a. & n. 1. a. of, belonging to, connected with a profession, (professional men, etiquette, jealousy); ~ politician, agitator, etc., (making a trade of politics etc.); ~ boxer, golfer, boxing, golf, etc., (for monetary reward; opp. amateur); hence ~LY adv. 2. n. professional person, esp. professional golfer etc.

And professionalism: (-sho-) n. qualities or typcial features of a profession or professionals; so ~IZE

From that definition I would conclude that reservists are professionals.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

i guess I have a different definition to professional then most other people. A professional soldier to me is someone who has dedicated their lives to the CF and could be considered on duty 24/7, it has nothing to do with ability or competence IMO. I know some professional military that are not as competent in their jobs but they do it 24/7.

 

[Excolis]

All members of the CF are "on duty 24/7" technically CIC are too.  after hte whole restucture of the CIC (about 1.5 years it will be completly implimented) we will be part of the Primary reserve with a legit MOC.  As of right now, the CIC and the rangers are the only two portions of the CF that do not have proper MOC.  As a CIC officer i can transfer to the PRes and keep my commission, so can i ask if i do that would you have more respect for me then?  Ex-Dragoon i forget, was it you that wanted the info in cadets with battle honours?

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

H.A.S. myself and several others were curious about it.

 

[Infanteer]

The Concise Oxford Dictionary describes 'professional' thus:

Too vague.  If you look at the first page, you'll see the definition of the profession that I give which is derived from Huntington's The Soldier and the State and is much more pretenant to the discussion.

 

[winchable]

Have you had your argument responded to yet infanteer?

I think Infanteer makes an excellent point regarding the CIC's commissions, without touching the issue of CIC competence and insulting anyone really.
Or Perhaps I've missed it?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Again speaking as a complete outsider, wouldn't the solution be for the CIC officers to complete the same training and KEEP the same standards as the "professional" officers?
Then the respect would be "earned" by anybodys standerds, no?