Government hints at boosting Canada’s military spending

I have long said that you could fund the CAF to 4 percent of GDP, but we would still lag behind in NATO and be much the same where we are.

It's never the money, it's politics. It's procedures. It's the pork-barreling in our defence spending that makes us a paper tiger in NATO.

My only hope in all of this for the CAF and the GoC, whatever the political stripe that may be, is that it will rouse them out of the "Peace Dividend" slumber. The world has been unstable since 1945. We have used geography, proximity, and association as a Defence Policy ever since. ICBMs don't care how close to the U.S. or how far from Russia/China we are.

Don't give us a dime more, but let us spend money on defence like it matters. The fact we follow the same rules for purchasing a fighter aircraft as we do for buying office furniture for a Service Canada office is disgraceful. Don't treat defense procurement as a stimulus package for Canadian Industry. There I said it.

We spend so much money, time, and effort trying to get that money to stay in Canada; be it by awarding contracts to companies with no capability to produce items without first "retooling" and"developing the production lines", or by hamstringing perfectly competent and competitive bidders by forcing the project to be made in St. Margaret de Poutain de Champignon, QC because the ruling government either lost the seat in the election, or won it with promises.

We spend so much money and staff hours jumping through TBS regulations that are great for other departments, but are terrible for defence procurement. Some items you have to sole source, because there are technologies and capabilities no one else makes. By doing the bid process, you get companies clamoring for a project they can't deliver on, but because they tick the bright boxes on the score sheet....

I truly and honestly belief we need to split from PSPC and legislate that its not beholden to TBS, only to the PBO/PCO. The guiding principles of this new Defence Procurement department should be "Off the shelf, from somewhere else" if there isn't an industry in Canada.

BOOTFORGEN has demonstrated how well we do when we are able to actually get what we need, instead of lining the pockets of a Canadian company that got lucky.

That, but with tanks, fighters, ships, weapons systems....

 

[kev994]

Yup when they removed the Fitness test for reg force. Warrior platoon was born at CFLRS ( trust me. There were no warrior recruit on it) which then because RFT Coy and PRETC rear it’s ugly head in…Borden?

Agreed ; let’s not try that experiment again.

I thought it was called ‘fat camp’? Was that a fake name?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I thought it was called ‘fat camp’? Was that a fake name?

Unofficially; the ones I said were the CFLRS ones.

Recruit Fitness Training was abbreviated to RFT. That had a few nicknames like “Ready For Turkey!” etc at the School.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Dispersed BMQ serials are already a thing, and there is no plan to stop running them.

I'm not sure if you were around back in the early-mid '00s, but the CAF tried the "bring them all in, then sort the rest out" thing back then. It resulted in massive holding platoons at bases all over the country, which resulted in lots of trouble being caused by bored troops. Many of those bored troops went on to resent the CAF, and the wasted time they spent. It also costs a lot of money, because once someone is in, it's hard to get rid of them when they turn out to not be suited to the job.

I'm sure the system can be improved, but I don't think that is the route to take.

Wait, so the Navy's plan to bring in more recruits, push them through the NETP after basic, then sit around waiting for their QL3 won't be a booming success?

It's cool, they'll just go on masse to the empty bunks on ships trying to figure out how to keep things going with a skeleton crew, what could go wrong?

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Unofficially; the ones I said were the CFLRS ones.

Recruit Fitness Training was abbreviated to RFT. That had a few nicknames like “Ready For Turkey!” etc at the School.

I was on Week 4 when that program stood up. It was embarrassing to watch.

Having done the enrollment PT test prior to swearing in, I made sure I was fit as hell walking through that green door. Some of the gents that were on RFT were easily 300-350 lbs and got winded in the meal line.

I honestly can't comprehend how much money was wasted trying to squeeze the square pegs into a round hole.

 

[MilEME09]

I wonder how many are coming in with skills the CAF desperately needs? Like air crews, pilots, marine engineers, etc...feel like we would want to fast track those individuals. Maybe even offer expedited citizenship for those that serve?

 

[Furniture]

Wait, so the Navy's plan to bring in more recruits, push them through the NETP after basic, then sit around waiting for their QL3 won't be a booming success?

It's cool, they'll just go on masse to the empty bunks on ships trying to figure out how to keep things going with a skeleton crew, what could go wrong?

In fairness to the RCN, it might be a great way to fill the watch and station bill. You don't need to be trade qualified to be on an attack team, or stand lookout on the bridge wings. It would free qualified people to do their real jobs, and give the trainees something "real" to do while waiting.

 

[dapaterson]

I wonder how many are coming in with skills the CAF desperately needs? Like air crews, pilots, marine engineers, etc...feel like we would want to fast track those individuals. Maybe even offer expedited citizenship for those that serve?

Skilled applicants are handled a bit differently. However, there are still challenges: Access to some foreign-procured equipment and supporting documents, for example, are restricted for some foreign nationals, precluding their employment in areas where such access is needed.

Citizenship law is outside DND/CAF's mandate, although MND can engage her cabinet colleagues on such things.

 

[Navy_Pete]

In fairness to the RCN, it might be a great way to fill the watch and station bill. You don't need to be trade qualified to be on an attack team, or stand lookout on the bridge wings. It would free qualified people to do their real jobs, and give the trainees something "real" to do while waiting.

Sure, and we've done stuff like that with the officer phase 4 course, but included course staff to handle the admin and basic supervision. But was 2 Lt(N)s to supervise/run the training for the SLts with SS support, with the ship running around 80% of max capacity.

Small number of NETP only is great, and you can start doing OJT for them to prepare for their QL3 when you have time.

They are talking about huge numbers that would outnumber most departments, on ships where they are at 50% capacity to start with; that's the unworkable part.

I'm a huge proponent of OJT and having trainees on board, but it requires a lot more work and supervision, and is doomed to fail if that's not part of the plan.

Tieing a few ships up and turning them into a training fleet would make more sense, but we want to do even more with even less, then act like surprised pikachus when people burn out and quit when they decide they don't like it and get out.

 

[Furniture]

Sure, and we've done stuff like that with the officer phase 4 course, but included course staff to handle the admin and basic supervision. But was 2 Lt(N)s to supervise/run the training for the SLts with SS support, with the ship running around 80% of max capacity.

Small number of NETP only is great, and you can start doing OJT for them to prepare for their QL3 when you have time.

They are talking about huge numbers that would outnumber most departments, on ships where they are at 50% capacity to start with; that's the unworkable part.

I'm a huge proponent of OJT and having trainees on board, but it requires a lot more work and supervision, and is doomed to fail if that's not part of the plan.

Tieing a few ships up and turning them into a training fleet would make more sense, but we want to do even more with even less, then act like surprised pikachus when people burn out and quit when they decide they don't like it and get out.

The RCN just needs to be more imaginative... Send a crusty Met Tech PO1 to the coast to wrangle NETP trainees on a ship headed to Hawaii...

 

[dimsum]

I bet you're right actually!

Man oh man...someone come save us from the silly people at the top

The top as in the CDS? MND? PM?

 

[FSTO]

BMQ at St Jean is rumoured to be so watered down, I can't see why getting masses of recruits thru "even-more-Basic-Training" is an issue.

I agree with removing BMQ a "common to all"; let the environmental command run their own Recruit/Basic/Depot. Distributed BMQs were/are already being run; Camp Aldershot NS is home to RCAF BMQs.

Delete

 

[kev994]

BMQ at St Jean is rumoured to be so watered down, I can't see why getting masses of recruits thru "even-more-Basic-Training" is an issue.

I agree with removing BMQ a "common to all"; let the environmental command run their own Recruit/Basic/Depot. Distributed BMQs were/are already being run; Camp Aldershot NS is home to RCAF BMQs.

Isn’t more recruit schools going to require significantly more staff? We’re then taking additional qualified people off the line to bring in unqualified people.

 

[FJAG]

Isn’t more recruit schools going to require significantly more staff? We’re then taking additional qualified people off the line to bring in unqualified people.

The math is pretty easy. Assuming you can get them in the door, more recruits mean more instructors are needed. Put that in the plan.

The solution isn't that complex either. Make every reconstituting battalion/regiment etc an individual training unit for the entire year with no other duties. Have them take recruits off the street and run them through to full DP1 and more during that year.

Then the next year get back to unit training on the road to high readiness.

 

[RangerRay]

Every summer, across Canada, wildfire management organizations hire thousands of young people - men and women - who go on to do a pretty good job under stressful conditions in the field.

Maybe we should copy them? e.g.,

Wildfire Fighters

The application process to become a wildfire fighter with the BC Wildfire Service

www2.gov.bc.ca

Big advantages they have:

1. They pay WAY better, including bags of OT when on operations.

2. They’re unionized. See OT above.

3. They’re not military. No beasting, no chickenshit (or smaller amounts). Just show up on time and be prepared to work hard.

 

[MilEME09]

Isn’t more recruit schools going to require significantly more staff? We’re then taking additional qualified people off the line to bring in unqualified people.

unfortunately we are trying to rebuild AND be operationally ready at the same time when the CAF as a whole is combat ineffective, we need to step back and for a year just train, train and train people at the schools and nothing more. You will then get thousands of troops in OJT bringing our capabilities back up, and a year and a half later they will be completing their 5s. then we can get back to business, but when we have PAT battalions because the schools are not at max throughput, we need to change. F2025 is suppose to prioritize manning the schools, but the schools need more capacity too.

 

[Furniture]

The math is pretty easy. Assuming you can get them in the door, more recruits mean more instructors are needed. Put that in the plan.

The solution isn't that complex either. Make every reconstituting battalion/regiment etc an individual training unit for the entire year with no other duties. Have them take recruits off the street and run them through to full DP1 and more during that year.

Then the next year get back to unit training on the road to high readiness.

There is a plan to try BMQ/DP1 for Infantry, but for many other occupations that doesn't work.

There aren't battalions of mechanics, clerks, or Met Techs that can rotate through a system like that.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

There is a plan to try BMQ/DP1 for Infantry, but for many other occupations that doesn't work.

There aren't battalions of mechanics, clerks, or Met Techs that can rotate through a system like that.

Especially trades that require training anywhere close to industry standards, specifically the technical trades we're bleeding out the middle that we desperately need to fill.

I would have to crunch the numbers, but something tells me the turn around in an infantry battalion is far lower than on the flight line, tech shops, and MSE Divs. Especially in folks that are already trained and are seeing how much more even a PS equivalent job pays.

Toss another task on those folks and it will be the straw that collapses the camel corpse ( the back was broken decades ago).

 

[Furniture]

Especially trades that require training anywhere close to industry standards, specifically the technical trades we're bleeding out the middle that we desperately need to fill.

I would have to crunch the numbers, but something tells me the turn around in an infantry battalion is far lower than on the flight line, tech shops, and MSE Divs. Especially in folks that are already trained and are seeing how much more even a PS equivalent job pays.

Toss another task on those folks and it will be the straw that collapses the camel corpse ( the back was broken decades ago).

Have you heard of the CAF offer? Based on the brief I received yesterday we should all be more appreciative of all that we get from the CAF compared to the PS.... Pay isn't everything don't 'cha know.

After hearing what the "way forward" is yesterday, I question why I bother sticking around now, and don't just jump to something with less BS, and less/equal pay.

 

[dapaterson]

Infanteer and MSE Op are the traditional "Quick bring in a bunch to meet SIP at end of FY" occupations, whether they are needed or not .

This masks underperformance on other occupations year after year, and contributes to the current situation.

 

[Furniture]

Infanteer and MSE Op are the traditional "Quick bring in a bunch to meet SIP at end of FY" occupations, whether they are needed or not .

This masks underperformance on other occupations year after year, and contributes to the current situation.

On top of that, we also have a ridiculous system designed to fail.

Back in the mid 10's my occupation was so short we were running our DP1 in a morning and night serial at the same time. Fast forward a year, and we were allowing anyone and everyone to OT because we were overborn in Pte/Cpl.

Now we are again back at ~80%, but short specifically in the MCpl-Sgt range... The very people we trained at night, then let go because according to the AMOR we were "fat".