Government hints at boosting Canada’s military spending

I have long said that you could fund the CAF to 4 percent of GDP, but we would still lag behind in NATO and be much the same where we are.

It's never the money, it's politics. It's procedures. It's the pork-barreling in our defence spending that makes us a paper tiger in NATO.

My only hope in all of this for the CAF and the GoC, whatever the political stripe that may be, is that it will rouse them out of the "Peace Dividend" slumber. The world has been unstable since 1945. We have used geography, proximity, and association as a Defence Policy ever since. ICBMs don't care how close to the U.S. or how far from Russia/China we are.

Don't give us a dime more, but let us spend money on defence like it matters. The fact we follow the same rules for purchasing a fighter aircraft as we do for buying office furniture for a Service Canada office is disgraceful. Don't treat defense procurement as a stimulus package for Canadian Industry. There I said it.

We spend so much money, time, and effort trying to get that money to stay in Canada; be it by awarding contracts to companies with no capability to produce items without first "retooling" and"developing the production lines", or by hamstringing perfectly competent and competitive bidders by forcing the project to be made in St. Margaret de Poutain de Champignon, QC because the ruling government either lost the seat in the election, or won it with promises.

We spend so much money and staff hours jumping through TBS regulations that are great for other departments, but are terrible for defence procurement. Some items you have to sole source, because there are technologies and capabilities no one else makes. By doing the bid process, you get companies clamoring for a project they can't deliver on, but because they tick the bright boxes on the score sheet....

I truly and honestly belief we need to split from PSPC and legislate that its not beholden to TBS, only to the PBO/PCO. The guiding principles of this new Defence Procurement department should be "Off the shelf, from somewhere else" if there isn't an industry in Canada.

BOOTFORGEN has demonstrated how well we do when we are able to actually get what we need, instead of lining the pockets of a Canadian company that got lucky.

That, but with tanks, fighters, ships, weapons systems....

 

[Kirkhill]

You had my curiosity, and this part got my attention. DOMOPS might be where we find the most use out of these guys so that the Army can actually focus on warfighting?

Plus, it'd be a splendid recruiting tool; join to fight wildfires, floods, epidemics and serve your community. Boy scouts for adults.

Might make them more easily employable too, since - under the right legal construct - there wouldn't be a dodgy question of force employment on Canadian soil. Conceivably, the Home Guard could legally fall under military command only in times of armed conflict, just like the USCG.

Eggzacky!!!

And, as you say, leave the warfighting for the Professionals.

And if they need additional help they have a pool of volunteers from which to draw, if they ask politely.

 

[RangerRay]

I don’t know about expecting more from volunteers. I was part of a fully funded ground SAR unit (i.e. we didn’t do bake sales) with all the gear and equipment we needed, but we faced the same attendance problems as my former PRes unit; 30-50 people on paper but less than a dozen who showed up regularly for practice, training and taskings, and even fewer who filled “management” roles. As such, those dedicated few who showed up got burnt out quickly, especially management, so we had high turnover. Like the PRes, advanced training took place out of town, on our own time, sometimes 7 hours away in the Big Smoke. We were paid only expenses for training and taskings.

I think it’s wishful thinking that motivated volunteers are going to save our bacon. A lot of volunteers put in exactly as much effort as they’re paid, especially when life gets in the way. At least in the PRes, they paid us beer money!

 

[Brad Sallows]

Plus, it'd be a splendid recruiting tool; join to fight wildfires, floods, epidemics and serve your community. Boy scouts for adults.

The people who occasionally boost their income by working extra hours when called upon to help in other parts of the country probably don't want underpaid competition.

Sure is easy to propose things that result in someone else's time or income being imposed upon.

 

[RangerRay]

Plus, it'd be a splendid recruiting tool; join to fight wildfires, floods, epidemics and serve your community. Boy scouts for adults.

We already have agencies for wildfire suppression.

 

[MilEME09]

The people who occasionally boost their income by working extra hours when called upon to help in other parts of the country probably don't want underpaid competition.

Sure is easy to propose things that result in someone else's time or income being imposed upon.

A long time ago reserve CSS was part of the national recovery plan, we actually had class A members on call. Now it's all contracted out

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Here lies our current problem with the PRes: Gotta pay the bills somehow.

We offer very little in the way of protection or cushion for folks when we ask them to serve their country on a part time basis. A lot of the people we recruit as reservists are working full time or are students pursuing a degree so they can be employed full time.

I look at the Ontario Government's recent changes to support Reservists and can already see HR departments trying to find loopholes. If we are going to have a Nordic socialist ideal of a "Home Guard" we need to ensure we provide the same sort of safe guards.

 

[Kirkhill]

Continuing with my fascination on the subject of Denmark

We have 7x the population but only 5x the wealth. Rich Danish buggers.

With that I took a look at the kit the Danes have and multiplied it by 5.

We would end up with

95x Cesar 155mm SPH (Wheeled)
105x LAV mounted 120mm mortars
220x Leo2A7
220x CV9035
2200x LAVs
890x Armoured HMMWV
75x Jackal

The Navy would end up with

15x Iver Huitfeldt Air Defence Frigates (ABM/Tomahawk Capable)
10x Absalon ASW/Support Frigates (Tank Transport Capable)
20x Thetis Class Frigates
15x Knud Rasmussen Patrol Vessels

The Air Force would end up with

163x F16 (being phased out)
135x F35 (being phased in)
20x Challenger MPA
20x C130J
55x Fennec Helicopters
45x SH-60
70x Merlin/Cormorant

40x NASAMS AD Batteries with 240x launchers
30x Radar Stations

All with a budget of less than 2% of GDP. (1.6 to be precise)

 

[Kirkhill]

I don’t know about expecting more from volunteers. I was part of a fully funded ground SAR unit (i.e. we didn’t do bake sales) with all the gear and equipment we needed, but we faced the same attendance problems as my former PRes unit; 30-50 people on paper but less than a dozen who showed up regularly for practice, training and taskings, and even fewer who filled “management” roles. As such, those dedicated few who showed up got burnt out quickly, especially management, so we had high turnover. Like the PRes, advanced training took place out of town, on our own time, sometimes 7 hours away in the Big Smoke. We were paid only expenses for training and taskings.

I think it’s wishful thinking that motivated volunteers are going to save our bacon. A lot of volunteers put in exactly as much effort as they’re paid, especially when life gets in the way. At least in the PRes, they paid us beer money!

I don't care if they regularly show up. Or if they get all the training.

I care about getting that regular dozen for free.
And, in the event of an emergency, as many of the rest as are willing to show up.
It all helps.

 

[Kirkhill]

The people who occasionally boost their income by working extra hours when called upon to help in other parts of the country probably don't want underpaid competition.

Sure is easy to propose things that result in someone else's time or income being imposed upon.

I keep forgetting.
Public Service is a union shop in Canada.

The Danes have stronger unions than we have over here and yet they still manage to support an unpaid Homeguard.

 

[Kirkhill]

We already have agencies for wildfire suppression.

Again, back to the Union.

This is about organizing for the day when the professionals are overwhelmed.

 

[mariomike]

Plus, it'd be a splendid recruiting tool; join to fight wildfires, floods, epidemics and serve your community.

"Serve your community."

How many employers grant Military Leave for anything short of "war as declared by the Government of Canada." ?

Especially when serving their community is their profession.

Saw this upthread,

>Volunteer firefighters freely volunteer their efforts as a way of serving and giving back to their community. They often do not receive >monetary compensation from the fire department. If they are paid, it is typically in the form of small stipends or annual bonuses.

We didn't have vollies or part-timers in our town. "It's a career, not a hobby".

But, I did look online at the collective agreements of some volunteer firefighter unions in Ontario. Take a look at the "small stipends".

 

[Kirkhill]

Here lies our current problem with the PRes: Gotta pay the bills somehow.

We offer very little in the way of protection or cushion for folks when we ask them to serve their country on a part time basis. A lot of the people we recruit as reservists are working full time or are students pursuing a degree so they can be employed full time.

I look at the Ontario Government's recent changes to support Reservists and can already see HR departments trying to find loopholes. If we are going to have a Nordic socialist ideal of a "Home Guard" we need to ensure we provide the same sort of safe guards.

This mob is not asked to serve their country. If they go overseas they have to volunteer and sign a regular short term enlistment contract (typically 6 months) and get covered under that.

These are people voluntarily, freely, at no charge, making themselves available to serve their local community. If they are injured then the local, government funded health care system looks after them. The same way it would if they injured themselves down at the local Sporthalle playing handball.

This is not about padding the Army and building Corps for Generals.
It is about preparing for emergencies that include people shooting.

 

[MilEME09]

Here lies our current problem with the PRes: Gotta pay the bills somehow.

We offer very little in the way of protection or cushion for folks when we ask them to serve their country on a part time basis. A lot of the people we recruit as reservists are working full time or are students pursuing a degree so they can be employed full time.

I look at the Ontario Government's recent changes to support Reservists and can already see HR departments trying to find loopholes. If we are going to have a Nordic socialist ideal of a "Home Guard" we need to ensure we provide the same sort of safe guards.

Agreed, in Alberta we need to provide 30 days written notice including date we leave and date we will return. Army changes course dates on you less than 30 days out? Well good luck to you cause bow your employer can just say no, and not keep your job.

 

[suffolkowner]

Continuing with my fascination on the subject of Denmark

We have 7x the population but only 5x the wealth. Rich Danish buggers.

With that I took a look at the kit the Danes have and multiplied it by 5.

We would end up with

95x Cesar 155mm SPH (Wheeled)
105x LAV mounted 120mm mortars
220x Leo2A7
220x CV9035
2200x LAVs
890x Armoured HMMWV
75x Jackal

The Navy would end up with

15x Iver Huitfeldt Air Defence Frigates (ABM/Tomahawk Capable)
10x Absalon ASW/Support Frigates (Tank Transport Capable)
20x Thetis Class Frigates
15x Knud Rasmussen Patrol Vessels

The Air Force would end up with

163x F16 (being phased out)
135x F35 (being phased in)
20x Challenger MPA
20x C130J
55x Fennec Helicopters
45x SH-60
70x Merlin/Cormorant

40x NASAMS AD Batteries with 240x launchers
30x Radar Stations

All with a budget of less than 2% of GDP. (1.6 to be precise)

Yep god we're cheap, freeloaders but when CAF leadership is happy with the outputs and growing NDHQ thats what you get. Cant spend $2+B a year because there is no political imperative to do so in fact just the opposite so adding another $2+B a year in unspent funds is just a waste

I think we are probably going to need some sort of expansion or creation of a national emergency response force in addition to the Reserve. Volunteer or not who knows but it should not be that hard to grab 1% of Brads 300,000 + turning military age each year for all our needs. Do we need more than that as a bump up in recruitment? May have to incentivize or get better at marketing

 

[Brad Sallows]

How we did it back in the day is irrelevant.

Most people are not interested in delaying their start in life out of the high school gate by two years, especially when called for by people who never faced that liability and never will.

Many people who have the occupational skills needed to fight fires, control floods, repair ice damage, etc are not in any kind of union and like OT. Partly displacing their earning opportunities is a sh!tty thing to do.

If we do the proper thing and leave all the high-speed work to the people with high-speed skills, that leaves shovel work. I'm not sure many people will spend formal time in any kind of "Home Guard" to learn how to dig holes and fill sandbags, and I'm certain no formal training or structure is needed.

So far we've been able to manage our crises, so these solutions - conscripted service, overinflated public welfare emergency militia - are looking for as-yet undemonstrated problems.

If there's more money for defence, spend it on real soldiers and real soldiering.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

This mob is not asked to serve their country. If they go overseas they have to volunteer and sign a regular short term enlistment contract (typically 6 months) and get covered under that.

These are people voluntarily, freely, at no charge, making themselves available to serve their local community. If they are injured then the local, government funded health care system looks after them. The same way it would if they injured themselves down at the local Sporthalle playing handball.

This is not about padding the Army and building Corps for Generals.
It is about preparing for emergencies that include people shooting.

Not saying it would be. I just was saying that our quasi-capitalist society doesn't lend well to "volunteering." Especially in the last 5 to 10 years.

Look at Canadian Blood Services, Red Cross, St. John's Ambulance.... all are screaming for volunteers but are coming up short. Why? People are working longer hours, for more days, with less pay.

Unless we are in the business of allowing people to come train and volunteer, through legislation and/or incentives for these employers to let folks go... it's much the same problem we see with our PRes.

 

[Kirkhill]

How we did it back in the day is irrelevant.

Most people are not interested in delaying their start in life out of the high school gate by two years, especially when called for by people who never faced that liability and never will.

Many people who have the occupational skills needed to fight fires, control floods, repair ice damage, etc are not in any kind of union and like OT. Partly displacing their earning opportunities is a sh!tty thing to do.

If we do the proper thing and leave all the high-speed work to the people with high-speed skills, that leaves shovel work. I'm not sure many people will spend formal time in any kind of "Home Guard" to learn how to dig holes and fill sandbags, and I'm certain no formal training or structure is needed.

So far we've been able to manage our crises, so these solutions - conscripted service, overinflated public welfare emergency militia - are looking for as-yet undemonstrated problems.

If there's more money for defence, spend it on real soldiers and real soldiering.

This is about people being organized to do what they can when they can as johnny on the spot. Even if it is just forming bucket brigades until the professionals come to save them. With any luck they might have put the fire out before they get their.

And yes Denmark has professional Emergency Services as well.

But still people volunteer...

And others still join the army.

A bigger (per capita) and better equipped army than we provide.

 

[Kirkhill]

Not saying it would be. I just was saying that our quasi-capitalist society doesn't lend well to "volunteering." Especially in the last 5 to 10 years.

Look at Canadian Blood Services, Red Cross, St. John's Ambulance.... all are screaming for volunteers but are coming up short. Why? People are working longer hours, for more days, with less pay.

Unless we are in the business of allowing people to come train and volunteer, through legislation and/or incentives for these employers to let folks go... it's much the same problem we see with our PRes.

We're not talking about two week camps here.

We're talking about heading down to the local armouries for a couple of hours a couple of times a week. This is about teaching skills to people who are eager to learn skills that might come in handy some day.

And if they become interested enough they might volunteer for a short term contract. And then maybe a longer one, Or go onto the Reserve rolls.

This is about connecting with people who might, maybe, someday become a soldier/sailor/aviator/aviatrix.
In the meantime, in local emergencies, they can be put to use, even if it is just directing traffic.

 

[Brad Sallows]

This is about people being organized to do what they can when they can as johnny on the spot.

Sure, and I see it in video and stills every time there is some kind of emergency : locals (mostly) showing up and doing stuff. And then the army shows up and does the same stuff, which I'm not convinced is actually necessary except as a matter of reassuring those who need reassurance. The CAF brings useful skill sets, but mostly those are not the ones that are going to be taught to part-timers.

People showing up to learn stuff still costs money, and I'm unconvinced there's much return on investment if they don't actually show up for the real thing.

[Add: there is a potential positive point; if they show up at existing armouries then it will only be a matter of time before the idea of having a mess open on Home Guard Night occurs to someone. So it might improve mess revenues.]

 

[Furniture]

This is about people being organized to do what they can when they can as johnny on the spot. Even if it is just forming bucket brigades until the professionals come to save them. With any luck they might have put the fire out before they get their.

And yes Denmark has professional Emergency Services as well.

But still people volunteer...

And others still join the army.

A bigger (per capita) and better equipped army than we provide.

Denmark has lots of people with a living connection to a time their country was occupied by a foreign invader, that tends to inspire people to care about defending their country in a way Canadians don't.

Sure, and I see it in video and stills every time there is some kind of emergency : locals (mostly) showing up and doing stuff. And then the army shows up and does the same stuff, which I'm not convinced is actually necessary except as a matter of reassuring those who need reassurance. The CAF brings useful skill sets, but mostly those are not the ones that are going to be taught to part-timers.

People showing up to learn stuff still costs money, and I'm unconvinced there's much return on investment if they don't actually show up for the real thing.

[Add: there is a potential positive point; if they show up at existing armouries then it will only be a matter of time before the idea of having a mess open on Home Guard Night occurs to someone. So it might improve mess revenues.]

The last thing the CAF needs is more people coming into the messes to drink, and misbehave.