Government hints at boosting Canada’s military spending

I have long said that you could fund the CAF to 4 percent of GDP, but we would still lag behind in NATO and be much the same where we are.

It's never the money, it's politics. It's procedures. It's the pork-barreling in our defence spending that makes us a paper tiger in NATO.

My only hope in all of this for the CAF and the GoC, whatever the political stripe that may be, is that it will rouse them out of the "Peace Dividend" slumber. The world has been unstable since 1945. We have used geography, proximity, and association as a Defence Policy ever since. ICBMs don't care how close to the U.S. or how far from Russia/China we are.

Don't give us a dime more, but let us spend money on defence like it matters. The fact we follow the same rules for purchasing a fighter aircraft as we do for buying office furniture for a Service Canada office is disgraceful. Don't treat defense procurement as a stimulus package for Canadian Industry. There I said it.

We spend so much money, time, and effort trying to get that money to stay in Canada; be it by awarding contracts to companies with no capability to produce items without first "retooling" and"developing the production lines", or by hamstringing perfectly competent and competitive bidders by forcing the project to be made in St. Margaret de Poutain de Champignon, QC because the ruling government either lost the seat in the election, or won it with promises.

We spend so much money and staff hours jumping through TBS regulations that are great for other departments, but are terrible for defence procurement. Some items you have to sole source, because there are technologies and capabilities no one else makes. By doing the bid process, you get companies clamoring for a project they can't deliver on, but because they tick the bright boxes on the score sheet....

I truly and honestly belief we need to split from PSPC and legislate that its not beholden to TBS, only to the PBO/PCO. The guiding principles of this new Defence Procurement department should be "Off the shelf, from somewhere else" if there isn't an industry in Canada.

BOOTFORGEN has demonstrated how well we do when we are able to actually get what we need, instead of lining the pockets of a Canadian company that got lucky.

That, but with tanks, fighters, ships, weapons systems....

 

[Remius]

'We have to do more': Foreign affairs minister on Canada's defence spending

Foreign Affairs Minister Melanie Joly says she thinks that Canada’s military needs to be 'better equipped' and that the government has to 'do more' when it comes to stepping up the defence budget.

www.ctvnews.ca

I expect a budget increase for Defence. Between Anand, Joly and Freyland, the messaging is pretty clear.

 

[Remius]

Proably won't. As a general rule Canadians don't much care about our modern military posture unless its going into retirement homes, fighting fires or aid after a flood. We're really self centered IMO.

They only care when it becomes cool to care. Right now Ukraine is the cool thing in the world right now.

 

[Halifax Tar]

'We have to do more': Foreign affairs minister on Canada's defence spending

Foreign Affairs Minister Melanie Joly says she thinks that Canada’s military needs to be 'better equipped' and that the government has to 'do more' when it comes to stepping up the defence budget.

www.ctvnews.ca

I expect a budget increase for Defence. Between Anand, Joly and Freyland, the messaging is pretty clear.

For me I will believe it when its more than promised spending years down the road.

We need huge capital real investments and we need them now. Soul sourced major purchases of weapons systems need to happen. And we need drastic increased recruitment.

Honestly we are so far behind the 8 ball for people I am not sure how the system could deal with a massive influx of people without ending up with thousands on pat platoons for years again.

 

[Jarnhamar]

the messaging is pretty clear.

I'd say thats more soundbytes than messaging. This is messaging.

Trudeau delays billions in military spending while touring NATO

While Prime Minister Justin Trudeau was touring Europe expressing solidarity with Canada’s NATO partners last week, a new study by the Parliamentary Budget Officer said his government has postponed billions of dollars in capital spending to replace aging military equipment promised in 2017.

Yves Giroux said the Trudeau government has so far “underspent” $10 billion of the $164 billion it promised for 348 projects, including replacing outdated warships, jet fighters and military vehicles from 2017-18 to 2036-37.

It took Giroux four years to get the full list of the projects and more funding delays are expected during the 20-year project.

 

[Remius]

For me I will believe it when its more than promised spending years down the road.

We need huge capital real investments and we need them now. Soul sourced major purchases of weapons systems need to happen. And we need drastic increased recruitment.

Honestly we are so far behind the 8 ball for people I am not sure how the system could deal with a massive influx of people without ending up with thousands on pat platoons for years again.

You’d have to reconstitute and focus on that and pretty much just that. We are already seing things like Nijemengen and other nice to do things cancelled. Cancel a bunch of stuff. Focus on training. Post more people to schools and get it done. Decentralise training and run courses everywhere.

 

[Remius]

I'd say thats more soundbytes than messaging. This is messaging.

Trudeau delays billions in military spending while touring NATO

All things that were said and done before the world just went to shyte. I think they got a dose of reality in the last few weeks.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Honestly we are so far behind the 8 ball for people I am not sure how the system could deal with a massive influx of people without ending up with thousands on pat platoons for years again.

The honest truth is DND and the CAF has been so under-resourced for so long that I don't think Canadians truly grasp how much money is actually required to even be able to begin to compete with a Modern Peer-Force.

Take our Defence Budget now and increase it by 100% annually and you might, in a decade from now, turn it in to cream.

Most of the new money will go towards undoing the effects of a couple of decades of underfunding. Then there is Defence inflation, which is always greater than General inflation.

The department is FUBAR, no doubt about it. I'm just happy I won't be dealing with it anymore in a few months time

PS:

If there was a sense that the Leopard had actually changed its spots, I would consider coming back but.....

It would cost the CAF mucho beaucoup dollars as I would expect a signing bonus

 

[GK .Dundas]

Agreed. Why not Leopards? We already use them, and the latest variants are arguably better that the latest Abrams.

Add a similar amount of M120/Soltam K6 120mm mortars and L9A1 51mm mortars. And more L16/M252 81mm mortars.

But, why Abrams and not the same number of Leopard 2s?

Simple , three reasons for this. One the American are literally next door the Germans you may have noticed are across an Ocean.
Two , the Americans have fairly large stocks of the vehicle and can spare a small number.
The Germans do not and are from all appearances are about to start a rather panicked rebuild of their own.
Three, we really have to rebuild our political capital with the Americans .

 

[Halifax Tar]

All things that were said and done before the world just went to shyte. I think they got a dose of reality in the last few weeks.

Negative, the world has been shyte for a long time, this is not new. Our people just buried their heads further into the sand and were happy being fed bread and circuses.

Canadians are complacent and lazy when it comes to world affairs, but want to be big boys on the stage. Guess what ? It doesn't work like that.

I really want to blame JT and his team for this; and while they are holding the reins right now this goes all the way back to the mid 60s. As much as I despise him we now need him and his team to fix this.

You’d have to reconstitute and focus on that and pretty much just that. We are already seing things like Nijemengen and other nice to do things cancelled. Cancel a bunch of stuff. Focus on training. Post more people to schools and get it done. Decentralise training and run courses everywhere.

Yup.

 

[Halifax Tar]

The honest truth is DND and the CAF has been so under-resourced for so long that I don't think Canadians truly grasp how much money is actually required to even be able to begin to compete with a Modern Peer-Force.

Take our Defence Budget now and increase it by 100% annually and you might, in a decade from now, turn it in to cream.

Most of the new money will go towards undoing the effects of a couple of decades of underfunding. Then there is Defence inflation, which is always greater than General inflation.

The department is FUBAR, no doubt about it. I'm just happy I won't be dealing with it anymore in a few months time

PS:

If there was a sense that the Leopard had actually changed its spots, I would consider coming back but.....

It would cost the CAF mucho beaucoup dollars as I would expect a signing bonus

Its kind of like looking at a house that's really a complete demo and instead hoping we can just slap some new paint on it lol

 

[suffolkowner]

Simple , three reasons for this. One the American are literally next door the Germans you may have noticed are across an Ocean.
Two , the Americans have fairly large stocks of the vehicle and can spare a small number.
The Germans do not and are from all appearances are about to start a rather panicked rebuild of their own.
Three, we really have to rebuild our political capital with the Americans .

The Abrams is a better tank in my opinion right now it also has a better and clearer upgrade future. Yes its a bit thirsty and super heavy so would likely be worse than useless in Ukraine right now. But the APU probably helps a little with that. Not sure on the need for 350 of them though

 

[mariomike]

I'm just happy I won't be dealing with it anymore in a few months time

Good luck in your future endeavors.

 

[suffolkowner]

The honest truth is DND and the CAF has been so under-resourced for so long that I don't think Canadians truly grasp how much money is actually required to even be able to begin to compete with a Modern Peer-Force.

Take our Defence Budget now and increase it by 100% annually and you might, in a decade from now, turn it in to cream.

Most of the new money will go towards undoing the effects of a couple of decades of underfunding. Then there is Defence inflation, which is always greater than General inflation.

The department is FUBAR, no doubt about it. I'm just happy I won't be dealing with it anymore in a few months time

PS:

If there was a sense that the Leopard had actually changed its spots, I would consider coming back but.....

It would cost the CAF mucho beaucoup dollars as I would expect a signing bonus

Its kind of like looking at a house that's really a complete demo and instead hoping we can just slap some new paint on it lol

There's no way out of this pickle without the political drive to do so. We do not have the procurement system to achieve any timely results. These things can easily be laid at the feet of the government in power. But it wasn't Harper or Trudeau that made CDS Vance double the number of GOFO's while simultaneously watching combat capability erode. What is the solution to that? Just doubling the defence budget I would want to take the bet that it would add any combat capability at all. I think there is a culture problem that extends way past sexual harassment issues

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Its kind of like looking at a house that's really a complete demo and instead hoping we can just slap some new paint on it lol

Yep, not to mention our current kit is already bloody antiquated.

I liked the story about how the Army is using TOW missiles which the article points out "are outdated technolgy".

I hate to tell them but most of our kit is outdated technology and that's across the services: missiles, guns, fighters, tanks, ships, sensors, etc. A lot of it is last-gen tech.

 

[lenaitch]

Simple , three reasons for this. One the American are literally next door the Germans you may have noticed are across an Ocean.
Two , the Americans have fairly large stocks of the vehicle and can spare a small number.
The Germans do not and are from all appearances are about to start a rather panicked rebuild of their own.
Three, we really have to rebuild our political capital with the Americans .

Why does so much of our procurement end up in redirecting/highjacking/whining our way into, somebody else's equipment stock or order book (rhetorical question - we all know why).

 

[Jarnhamar]

We are already seing things like Nijemengen and other nice to do things cancelled.

That was a weird move. Nijemengen hardly seemed like it required a lot of horse power. And it was canceled well before things started getting hot in Ukraine.

Decentralise training and run courses everywhere.

Easier said than done. We're still seeing 10K or something members releasing per year. Members on MELs seem to be at an all time high. Still having leadership and accountability issues. We'll need a system where we can easily punt undesirables instead of letting them cling on for years.

All things that were said and done before the world just went to shyte. I think they got a dose of reality in the last few weeks.

A big enough dose to smash through funding for new warships, planes, helicopters? PY positions and facilities? It's taken us over 15 years (and counting) to get a new pistol. What you're suggesting is a complete 540 degree turn.

I see promises of new funding that's light on actual details with lengthily timelines to give the LPC room to put the money towards other projects when Ukraine dies down.

The LPC is taking advantage of the situation touring Europe getting tons of nice photos instead of putting in overtime hours at work figuring shit out.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

There's no way out of this pickle without the political drive to do so. We do not have the procurement system to achieve any timely results. These things can easily be laid at the feet of the government in power. But it wasn't Harper or Trudeau that made CDS Vance double the number of GOFO's while simultaneously watching combat capability erode. What is the solution to that? Just doubling the defence budget I would want to take the bet that it would add any combat capability at all. I think there is a culture problem that extends way past sexual harassment issues

The situation is too complex and multi-faceted to even be able to explain adequately on here.

We would need to significantly beef up the Staff and HQs in our present system with actual worker bees, as opposed to our MO of more senior officers and bureaucrats, to even be able to begin to achieve anything.

We would also need to download/decentralize spending/approval authorities to lower levels of the organization to really see any results.

Essentially, improving our Military is going to require undoing the Bureaucratic Machine we've managed to build up around ourselves over the past few decades.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I've worked in our National HQs before. The culture that exists within our Higher HQs (L2 and Above) is the antithesis of dynamic, innovative, progressive.

I 100% guarantee that I could fire 80% of the people in some of our L2+ HQ and see no actual decrease in outputs.

 

[Remius]

That was a weird move. Nijemengen hardly seemed like it required a lot of horse power. And it was canceled well before things started getting hot in Ukraine.

Force reconstitution was already being done due to COVID. But keep cancelling anything that has nothing to do with rebuilding and training. I would turn the whole machine into a training establishment until we get to where we need to be.

Easier said than done. We're still seeing 10K or something members releasing per year. Members on MELs seem to be at an all time high. Still having leadership and accountability issues. We'll need a system where we can easily punt undesirables instead of letting them cling on for years.

Yes. Efficiency needs to go hand in hand with any changes. Like you I’m doubtful but we’ll see. I’d simplify the recruiting process and risk manage certain things.

A big enough dose to smash through funding for new warships, planes, helicopters? PY positions and facilities? It's taken us over 15 years (and counting) to get a new pistol. What you're suggesting is a complete 540 degree turn.

Yep. But out of the box thinking and some improvising would be in order.

I see promises of new funding that's light on actual details with lengthily timelines to give the LPC room to put the money towards other projects when Ukraine dies down.

The LPC is taking advantage of the situation touring Europe getting tons of nice photos instead of putting in overtime hours at work figuring shit out.

Quite likely. But we’ll see what comes out of this when budget time comes.

I am fully prepared to be disappointed. But I still have room to be pleasantly surprised.

 

[GR66]

Simple , three reasons for this. One the American are literally next door the Germans you may have noticed are across an Ocean.
Two , the Americans have fairly large stocks of the vehicle and can spare a small number.
The Germans do not and are from all appearances are about to start a rather panicked rebuild of their own.
Three, we really have to rebuild our political capital with the Americans .

I'd add to this that in most situations where we are likely to deploy tanks we are almost certainly going to be deploying along side American forces also using the Abrams. Not so certain that we'll be deploying alongside other nations using the Leopard. If the Ukraine conflict has shown us anything it's that logistics are absolutely a key enabler for military effectiveness and being fully interoperable with American forces would be a force multiplier for both our forces.

I'd go so far as suggesting that for any new military equipment purchases we should first look at what the US is using and justify why the same equipment isn't suitable for the Canadian military before we start shopping elsewhere. That would ensure maximum interoperability with our closest ally and simplify our logistics in case of war. It could also possibly encourage investment by US military contractors in the Canadian economy either for direct production or production of components within the supply chain if they see the potential for ongoing orders coming from Canada. It should also hopefully simplify our procurement system as it would only have to deal with those items where there is a demonstrated Canadian-specific need that isn't met by current US systems.

As far as our tanks go specifically I'd propose gifting our Leopards to Poland which is currently upgrading some of their Soviet-era vehicles with Leopards already which would give them the opportunity to then gift an equivalent number of their now surplus T-72s to Ukraine. We could then reach out the the US to replace our 82 x Leopards with enough Abrams to equip a Canadian ABCT (plus spares).