Government hints at boosting Canada’s military spending

I have long said that you could fund the CAF to 4 percent of GDP, but we would still lag behind in NATO and be much the same where we are.

It's never the money, it's politics. It's procedures. It's the pork-barreling in our defence spending that makes us a paper tiger in NATO.

My only hope in all of this for the CAF and the GoC, whatever the political stripe that may be, is that it will rouse them out of the "Peace Dividend" slumber. The world has been unstable since 1945. We have used geography, proximity, and association as a Defence Policy ever since. ICBMs don't care how close to the U.S. or how far from Russia/China we are.

Don't give us a dime more, but let us spend money on defence like it matters. The fact we follow the same rules for purchasing a fighter aircraft as we do for buying office furniture for a Service Canada office is disgraceful. Don't treat defense procurement as a stimulus package for Canadian Industry. There I said it.

We spend so much money, time, and effort trying to get that money to stay in Canada; be it by awarding contracts to companies with no capability to produce items without first "retooling" and"developing the production lines", or by hamstringing perfectly competent and competitive bidders by forcing the project to be made in St. Margaret de Poutain de Champignon, QC because the ruling government either lost the seat in the election, or won it with promises.

We spend so much money and staff hours jumping through TBS regulations that are great for other departments, but are terrible for defence procurement. Some items you have to sole source, because there are technologies and capabilities no one else makes. By doing the bid process, you get companies clamoring for a project they can't deliver on, but because they tick the bright boxes on the score sheet....

I truly and honestly belief we need to split from PSPC and legislate that its not beholden to TBS, only to the PBO/PCO. The guiding principles of this new Defence Procurement department should be "Off the shelf, from somewhere else" if there isn't an industry in Canada.

BOOTFORGEN has demonstrated how well we do when we are able to actually get what we need, instead of lining the pockets of a Canadian company that got lucky.

That, but with tanks, fighters, ships, weapons systems....

 

[OldSolduer]

Not sure if that pic is appropriate.

Camels are more an Arab thing

 

[OldSolduer]

Most likely such stupid politicians less appropriate for Canada. 2015 ones already canceled F-35 purchase. It took 10 years to figure out own bad move and get back in line for new jets.
This guy have no even slightest idea about complexity of acquiring such high tech equipment, leave alone establishing own national manufacturing. And he is hopping to be top leader of Canada.

You have a language problem

 

[dapaterson]

Most likely such stupid politicians less appropriate for Canada. 2015 ones already canceled F-35 purchase. It took 10 years to figure out own bad move and get back in line for new jets.
This guy have no even slightest idea about complexity of acquiring such high tech equipment, leave alone establishing own national manufacturing. And he is hopping to be top leader of Canada.

There was no cancellation in 2015. Canada did not sign on for acquisition until 2022.

 

[DBNSG]

There was no cancellation in 2015. Canada did not sign on for acquisition until 2022.

The first act of Trudeau as P.M. back in 2015 was ordering our 6 Pack of CF-18's out of Kuwait to give the poor ISIS bunch a chance.

 

[dapaterson]

There was no cancellation of a JSF acquisition in 2015 because there had been no JSF acquisition to that point in time.

Canada has been involved as a contributing nation to the JSF since the late 1990s, but did not sign on to acquire aircraft (through the PSFD MOU, not commercial or FMS) until late 2022.

Saying the government cancelled the F35 in 2015 is factually incorrect since the acquisition decision was only made in 2022.

...Unless PSPC also bought a DeLorean and a flux capacitor, and DND had 202 Workshop do the integration work...

 

[PuckChaser]

There was no cancellation in 2015. Canada did not sign on for acquisition until 2022.

Much like Portgual, it wasn't a real cancellation but effectively a restart on a process we all knew would select the F-35 anyway. We'd already have a few squadrons equipped if they didn't politically punt the decision because they hate defense spending.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

The two are starting to intermingle. These days an infantryman has to adapt to a digital world, whereas we in our day were analog.

The new improved digital radios are an an example.

Then training, in turn, must adapt to reflect that. Doctrine and force structures moreso.

If we have a more digitally/technological inclined infantry soldier, how much support/specialist pers are needed within the Bn? Can we claw then back to the Bde Div level with the other CS (Eng, Arty, ISR, etc.)?

I feel this argument is had at the onset/conclusion of every conflict where technology shifts greatly.

I remember reading about the Canadian Machine Gun Corps in WWI and the belief it was a separate, distinct combat capability from Infantry. 4 years of having to work closely and intimately within a infantry Bn, it was absorbed and became a new role (along with improved tactics and doctrine).

Makes me wonder how long until the discussion about Pl FPV operators starts taking shape.

 

[Kirkhill]

Camels are more an Arab thing

Can't make out if it is a Dromedary or a Bactrian camel.

 

[ytz]

Then training, in turn, must adapt to reflect that. Doctrine and force structures moreso.

If we have a more digitally/technological inclined infantry soldier, how much support/specialist pers are needed within the Bn? Can we claw then back to the Bde Div level with the other CS (Eng, Arty, ISR, etc.)?

I feel this argument is had at the onset/conclusion of every conflict where technology shifts greatly.

I remember reading about the Canadian Machine Gun Corps in WWI and the belief it was a separate, distinct combat capability from Infantry. 4 years of having to work closely and intimately within a infantry Bn, it was absorbed and became a new role (along with improved tactics and doctrine).

Makes me wonder how long until the discussion about Pl FPV operators starts taking shape.

We're quickly seeing how things integrate in unpredictable ways. Your need drones at every level and echelon from section to division level assets. And you need cyber operators to accompany SOF to break into enemy networks. Every division level organization or carrier/amphib group in the US now needs space liaisons in their operations shop to synchronize space effects (most of my class mates went to these billets from the exchange program I was on). We're not even close to that level of integration. Likewise, we're so far behind on air defence and EW, which again have to be much more organic these days. So the idea that all we need are training programs to pump out rifle carriers in 6 months is quite the stretch.

Also, I'm going to bet that any coming policy review will face a hard choice between maximizing a land force or an air and naval force and choose the latter. This is the sense I get watching some of the priorities develop around me.

 

[PrairieFella]

Most likely such stupid politicians less appropriate for Canada. 2015 ones already canceled F-35 purchase. It took 10 years to figure out own bad move and get back in line for new jets.
This guy have no even slightest idea about complexity of acquiring such high tech equipment, leave alone establishing own national manufacturing. And he is hopping to be top leader of Canada.

Wrong subcontinent brah.

 

[PrairieFella]

We're quickly seeing how things integrate in unpredictable ways. Your need drones at every level and echelon from section to division level assets. And you need cyber operators to accompany SOF to break into enemy networks. Every division level organization or carrier/amphib group in the US now needs space liaisons in their operations shop to synchronize space effects (most of my class mates went to these billets from the exchange program I was on). We're not even close to that level of integration. Likewise, we're so far behind on air defence and EW, which again have to be much more organic these days. So the idea that all we need are training programs to pump out rifle carriers in 6 months is quite the stretch.

Also, I'm going to bet that any coming policy review will face a hard choice between maximizing a land force or an air and naval force and choose the latter. This is the sense I get watching some of the priorities develop around me.

Makes sense - it takes a long time to build air and naval forces and you're generally stuck with what you had ready for the last war. Full speed ahead on the RCN and RCAF as far as im concerned. That said, I hope we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater here because at the end of the day, you can't win a war with ships or planes, at some point a ground pounder supported by armour and indirect fires need to close with and destroy the enemy. Hopefully there's a few pennies left for the Army somewhere in the cushions between planes, choppers, ships and boats.

 

[ytz]

Makes sense - it takes a long time to build air and naval forces and you're generally stuck with what you had ready for the last war. Full speed ahead on the RCN and RCAF as far as im concerned. That said, I hope we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater here because at the end of the day, you can't win a war with ships or planes, at some point a ground pounder supported by armour and indirect fires need to close with and destroy the enemy. Hopefully there's a few pennies left for the Army somewhere in the cushions between planes, choppers, ships and boats.

I think the Army needs to get onboard with that vision and ride it. Fewer dreams of heavy armoured brigades. And more poster boards of how air and sea mobile the army can be. Government wants more ships? Tell them how the army can build a marine regiment to crew an amphib. Government talking about buying more helicopters? The CA should explain to the MND their new concept for an air assault regiment. Etc.

 

[Maxman1]

So Carney should fly into Germany and Sweden and commit to some Leo's and CV-90's. You just know he wants to firehose more money.

And Italy for AW101 and AW149, and Austria for M6 mortars.

 

[Maxman1]

Nailed it.

A strategic POV is generally a longer term, more proactive way to go.

Knee jerking to Trump's - likely shorter term - absurdities is a sign of helpless fear, and weak leadership.

It wouldn't surprise me if Trump doesn't stick around for his full term, either being impeached after the midterms next year, or relieved for health reasons.

 

[markppcli]

Yeah. With full disclosure of the onion on my belt and 44 years of RegF and ResF service and having started my married life as a young lieutenant on $600 a month and taking my wife 1,200 kilometres away from her family on our first posting a week after our wedding, I wouldn't understand. Just sayin'.

In 1970 that 600 dollars had the buying power of 4,900 in 2025. Starting as a DEO 2 LT you’d make 4,800 now. So about the same. However your military housing wasn’t adjusted to the economy until the 1990s so the benefits were a touch better. Now your wife’s judgment on agreeing to all of that is of course open to debate

 

[dapaterson]

Much like Portgual, it wasn't a real cancellation but effectively a restart on a process we all knew would select the F-35 anyway. We'd already have a few squadrons equipped if they didn't politically punt the decision because they hate defense spending.

The amount of actual justification done by the RCAF to that point was minimal. Unlike, say, the C17, Herc J and Chinook acquisitions where the detailed efforts went in to advance those capabilities, the NGFC (remember that acronym) was barely PowerPoint deep.

Unfortunately, the RCAF suffered from a series of unserious leaders, who, having failed to do the necessary work, failed to advance the acquisition.

 

[ytz]

In 1970 that 600 dollars had the buying power of 4,900 in 2025. Starting as a DEO 2 LT you’d make 4,800 now. So about the same. However your military housing wasn’t adjusted to the economy until the 1990s so the benefits were a touch better. Now your wife’s judgment on agreeing to all of that is of course open to debate

Compare price/income and rent/income ratios over those years. And you'll see how much worse off young people are today. That DEO today sees a third of that go to taxes and deductions. And more than half of what's left go to rent. Heck, even R&Q is well over 1k these days. Doesn't leave a lot for car payments (not really optional to get around), food, etc. and good luck to them if they happen to have a family at rank. If you have the same income as 1970 (inflation adjusted) and you face this housing situation, it's actually devastating to your quality of life:

 

[Czech_pivo]

And Italy for AW101 and AW149, and Austria for M6 mortars.

And more than 28 of them.

 

[OldSolduer]

Wrong subcontinent brah.

He's a troll. I love how he write like he not know English very good, no?

 

[Halifax Tar]

Compare price/income and rent/income ratios over those years. And you'll see how much worse off young people are today. That DEO today sees a third of that go to taxes and deductions. And more than half of what's left go to rent. Heck, even R&Q is well over 1k these days. Doesn't leave a lot for car payments (not really optional to get around), food, etc. and good luck to them if they happen to have a family at rank. If you have the same income as 1970 (inflation adjusted) and you face this housing situation, it's actually devastating to your quality of life:

What's that blip in disposable income after 2017 ?