Government hints at boosting Canada’s military spending

I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[KevinB]

I would say implement a housing allowance at each base and make everyone live on the economy, be it rent or own. Monthly rate based on local prices adjusted yearly.
Everyone gets the same, from Pte to LCol. Here is a $1000/month tax free allowance to live in Bloggins Lake, Alberta, stay xx kms within the base.

Which would just see skyrocketing rental rates in those areas, as well as market jumps for buying homes.

Shut down CFHA completely and sell off all permanent base housing.

Not everyone is financially independent enough to buy a home, and with deployments etc having housing available ensures that you don’t see young families out in the streets.

ESQ’s and PMQ’s also provide options for divorced members who may or may not have dependents.

How many base locations couldn’t support everyone living on the economy….eventually?

Support or offer available affordable options?

 

[KevinB]

The CAF Cpl gets 15% employer contributions to retirement, plus paid training and ongoing paid professional development.

And the leave policy. Few folks realize that aspect until they hit the civilian street.

 

[AmmoTech90]

No, as a Plan Member, you do not make contributions to the Fund. Your Employer is required to make contributions to the Fund on your behalf according to contribution rates as specified in the Collective Agreement. All contributions made to the Fund by your Employer are deemed to be employer contributions.

His pension plan pays around $200 per year of employment per month if you retire at 65. You can retire early and take a penalty. Also, in 2023 the Union contributed an extra 7.5% to current employee pension funds, and 7.5 to pensioners payments.

Decent holidays too, a few weeks per year.

The union shop is a lot better than the non-union shop.

 

[Quirky]

Which would just see skyrocketing rental rates in those areas, as well as market jumps for buying homes.

Don’t move everyone out at once, do it gradually over the APS.

Not everyone is financially independent enough to buy a home, and with deployments etc having housing available ensures that you don’t see young families out in the streets.

ESQ’s and PMQ’s also provide options for divorced members who may or may not have dependents.

How do people in the real world survive with these problems.

Support or offer available affordable options?

Available infrastructure for the local base to close down over a period of a decade. A proper housing allowance would make it affordable.

 

[FJAG]

A huge part of why HQs and Staffs have grown is the proliferation of decision-making and the large areas the forces they lead cover. What was the frontage of Division in WWII vs today? What do commanders have to consider that that they did not back then? There was a Modern War Institute podcast on this topic from a few months ago. Good listen.

I said that I would reduce nothing from the "field force." I'm talking the administrative headquarters above brigade/wing/fleet level. Their proliferation is not based on tactical issues.

Unpopular opinion: Cpl should not be upper middle class pay rates.

It was an outgrowth of Hellyer's unification/integration program. The move was primarily a back-door way of providing more pay. Some say as an attempt to stave off massive voluntary releases. (Which is a bit humorous as the subsequent Trudeau government downsized the CAF dramatically.

The ridiculousness of the program was the oversight of the leadership roles corporals had prior to that and which was poorly corrected by the 5A/5B distinction whereby a 5B (leadership) corporal got a crown to sew on top off his stripes and an extra $5.00 per month in pay. That all evolved into the master corporal appointment which was not (and still isn't to this day) a rank.

We need to rejig the structure.

Neither should Captains.

I see things a bit different with captains (and not only because I was one many, many years ago). In most armies captains have significant leadership roles whereby they command companies. The commonwealth system gives that role to majors. In Canada we have made captain a mostly automatic rank and created the curious establishment position of Capt/Lt (Last time I looked the CAF RegF had some 250 Lt positions; 2,500 Capt/Lt posns and just over 5,000 Capt posns) Effectively our captains command primarily platoons and do low level staff work.

Personally, I see Lts and WOs command platoons and captains companies - but that's just me obviously.

 

[MilEME09]

Perhaps we need a new spec pay category? A technical specialist pay that is added to qualified technicians of certain trades to make the equal to their civilian counter parts at the Cpl - Sgt level

 

[Quirky]

I would like to know how many people left the CAF (without a pension) to do the exact same technical trade civy side.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Unpopular opinion: Cpl should not be upper middle class pay rates.

Why do you feel that way ?

Compare CAF Techs at Cpl to their civilian equivalents.

Then let's talk about CAF pay.

You cant compare civ to mil. We both offer the different services. The mil factor is all the difference, IMHO.

*I will admit my bias, as my career has been firmly centered at the first line and deployed so I will admit my view could be considered as an outlier.

It was an outgrowth of Hellyer's unification/integration program. The move was primarily a back-door way of providing more pay. Some say as an attempt to stave off massive voluntary releases. (Which is a bit humorous as the subsequent Trudeau government downsized the CAF dramatically.

The ridiculousness of the program was the oversight of the leadership roles corporals had prior to that and which was poorly corrected by the 5A/5B distinction whereby a 5B (leadership) corporal got a crown to sew on top off his stripes and an extra $5.00 per month in pay. That all evolved into the master corporal appointment which was not (and still isn't to this day) a rank.

We need to rejig the structure.

I actually agree with you here. The problem now is we have such a structure built around this with families subsiding off it, how do you do the drastic change at this point ?

I will tell you a good Cpl who knows how to get things done is worth their weight in gold. Probably the most important person in a section is that Cpl that becomes the focal point of the section and makes everything happen.

I see things a bit different with captains (and not only because I was one many, many years ago). In most armies captains have significant leadership roles whereby they command companies. The commonwealth system gives that role to majors. In Canada we have made captain a mostly automatic rank and created the curious establishment position of Capt/Lt (Last time I looked the CAF RegF had some 250 Lt positions; 2,500 Capt/Lt posns and just over 5,000 Capt posns) Effectively our captains command primarily platoons and do low level staff work.

Personally, I see Lts and WOs command platoons and captains companies - but that's just me obviously.

Captains are just the Cpls of the officer world. With 10 pay incentives.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Not being paid enough (extrinsic motivator) and not accomplishing anything meaningful (intrinsic motivator) ...

Looks like the CAF has all the bases covered

lol astute.

My whole point is the people are speaking. Ignore them at your own peril.

 

[McG]

Your reminder that no Canadian political party os serious about defence even now.

Globe editorial: The Conservatives and Liberals refuse to stand on guard

Both parties have no plan to raise defence spending to meet NATO’s (increasing) requirements

www.theglobeandmail.com

 

[Remius]

lol astute.

My whole point is the people are speaking. Ignore them at your own peril.

On a discussion board full of already disgruntled soldiers called “cplsnetwork”. Using what I would say is a very unscientific poll that doesn’t even have a sample size published.

But even then it would seem that only 23% see pay as the issue and the remaining 76% identified systemic issues on how we treat our people.

The people have spoken all right. lol.

 

[ueo]

I would say implement a housing allowance at each base and make everyone live on the economy, be it rent or own. Monthly rate based on local prices adjusted yearly.
Everyone gets the same, from Pte to LCol. Here is a $1000/month tax free allowance to live in Bloggins Lake, Alberta, stay xx kms within the base.

Shut down CFHA completely and sell off all permanent base housing.

How many base locations couldn’t support everyone living on the economy….eventually?

Like in about half a millium?

 

[Furniture]

On a discussion board full of already disgruntled soldiers called “cplsnetwork”. Using what I would say is a very unscientific poll that doesn’t even have a sample size published.

But even then it would seem that only 23% see pay as the issue and the remaining 76% identified systemic issues on how we treat our people.

The people have spoken all right. lol.

Maybe we should stand up a two star org to poll members for feedback, with absolutely perfect polling data. The quest for perfect data is part of how we got to where we are right now with HQ bloat.

Dismissing feedback because you don't like the source is part of what got us to the point we are at currently. Disgruntled people become disgruntled for a reason, ignoring them because you don't like their current attitude is silly.

I'd also like to point out that the demographic on this site putting down increased pay is older, established/retired members, who are perhaps out of touch with the reality on the shop/hangar floor right now.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Is Carney the guy that's going to steer the ship to starboard and get us back to the center?

I can't paste it here but I watched on Youtube an in depth interview (47mins long!) of Carney from about 9 days ago by a Podcast guy in the US called 'Prof G Conversations'

If you're able to put the link on here I think alot of people would find it very helpful. I certainly came away after listening to it with greater respect for Carney.

 

[Halifax Tar]

On a discussion board full of already disgruntled soldiers called “cplsnetwork”. Using what I would say is a very unscientific poll that doesn’t even have a sample size published.

But even then it would seem that only 23% see pay as the issue and the remaining 76% identified systemic issues on how we treat our people.

The people have spoken all right. lol.

The screen shot is from a DND briefing. Reposted on IG.

The first three points are all what I said, Pay and Leadership.

But I digress, ignore at your own peril*.

*Not you,@Remius, the institution.

 

[KevinB]

Maybe we should stand up a two star org to poll members for feedback, with absolutely perfect polling data. The quest for perfect data is part of how we got to where we are right now with HQ bloat.

Agreed.

Dismissing feedback because you don't like the source is part of what got us to the point we are at currently. Disgruntled people become disgruntled for a reason, ignoring them because you don't like their current attitude is silly.

Feedback is a gift.

I'd also like to point out that the demographic on this site putting down increased pay is older, established/retired members, who are perhaps out of touch with the reality on the shop/hangar floor right now.

Everyone hates “Yes, but..” answers, but I’ll give one anyway.

I agree with the fact most of us are older, but with age there is (hopefully) wisdom and experience. CAF pay and benefits are pretty good, and clearly better than when most of us where PTE(R) or OCdt’s. The problem with salaries is everyone always wants more, and there is nothing necessarily wrong with that, but there is only so much $ to go around.

The CAF pay raises (while tied to the PS these days) have created a bit of a bottleneck in that the young PTE’s and Junior Officers come in substantially higher than before, so the jumps aren’t as significant. I remember as a PTE(3) making more than double the PTE(T)’s who just finished BattleSchool, and the jumps from PTE(R) to PTE(B) to PTE(T) where also significant.
Now no one paid for R&Q until you got to BN, so the pay rates where not awful IF you where single. More older people entering the CAF or those with dependents struggled hard with the pay. As opposed to folks like me who went and bought TV’s Stereo’s and new vehicles (and a lot of liquor, beer etc)

Everyone also had to live for at least 1 year in barracks when getting to BN (unless married and they got PMQ’s).

It was a fairly stable system, even though the shacks generally sucked, but the old shacks had another benefit, as the Rifle Coy’s where in the basement so the weapons vaults where right there as well as Platoon offices and platoon stores/common room.
- the Gunners, Armoured and Engineers, as well as Cbt Spt Coy had lines in separate areas - but for Morning Pt all the shack dwellers needed to do was pop out of bed and walk out to the parade squares. (This was common for Calgary, Edmonton, Petawawa, Valcartier, Gagetown, Winnipeg, and IIRC Shilo but don’t quote me).
So one didn’t really need a vehicle when getting to ones unit unless one was in a PMQ. (The Jr Officers usually had a bit of a hike in the morning’s, and it wasn’t uncommon for many of the junior ones to shower in the barracks after PT as opposed to walking back to their quarters).

Cpl was a pretty sweet pay raise then as well, and M/Cpl and Sgt where as well.

Now the bottom starts much higher, and as I understand there is no PTE(R) (B) or (T) so their are less jumps for NCM’s and the jumps aren’t as significant as before.

The same goes for the officer trades where it seems folks can hit Captain at OFP

I’d suggest that this whole debacle could have been avoided, I’m not sure if the blame can go all the way back to Unification with the change from Cpl as the Section Commander and the LCpl being the one hook - but the removal of the earlier rank incentives has caused inflated lower rank pay that then doesn’t get corrected by increases in rank or incentives like what occurred before.

I think for NCM’s the creation of a T-Sgt rank for SME positions that might otherwise sit at Cpl could help (similar to the WO scheme down here). You could have 15 pay incentives in that ‘rank’ or even sub categories for certain tech fields to make them comparable or attractive compared to Civilian jobs.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Agreed.


Feedback is a gift.

Everyone hates “Yes, but..” answers, but I’ll give one anyway.

I agree with the fact most of us are older, but with age there is (hopefully) wisdom and experience. CAF pay and benefits are pretty good, and clearly better than when most of us where PTE(R) or OCdt’s. The problem with salaries is everyone always wants more, and there is nothing necessarily wrong with that, but there is only so much $ to go around.

The CAF pay raises (while tied to the PS these days) have created a bit of a bottleneck in that the young PTE’s and Junior Officers come in substantially higher than before, so the jumps aren’t as significant. I remember as a PTE(3) making more than double the PTE(T)’s who just finished BattleSchool, and the jumps from PTE(R) to PTE(B) to PTE(T) where also significant.
Now no one paid for R&Q until you got to BN, so the pay rates where not awful IF you where single. More older people entering the CAF or those with dependents struggled hard with the pay. As opposed to folks like me who went and bought TV’s Stereo’s and new vehicles (and a lot of liquor, beer etc)

Everyone also had to live for at least 1 year in barracks when getting to BN (unless married and they got PMQ’s).

It was a fairly stable system, even though the shacks generally sucked, but the old shacks had another benefit, as the Rifle Coy’s where in the basement so the weapons vaults where right there as well as Platoon offices and platoon stores/common room.
- the Gunners, Armoured and Engineers, as well as Cbt Spt Coy had lines in separate areas - but for Morning Pt all the shack dwellers needed to do was pop out of bed and walk out to the parade squares. (This was common for Calgary, Edmonton, Petawawa, Valcartier, Gagetown, Winnipeg, and IIRC Shilo but don’t quote me).
So one didn’t really need a vehicle when getting to ones unit unless one was in a PMQ. (The Jr Officers usually had a bit of a hike in the morning’s, and it wasn’t uncommon for many of the junior ones to shower in the barracks after PT as opposed to walking back to their quarters).

Cpl was a pretty sweet pay raise then as well, and M/Cpl and Sgt where as well.

Now the bottom starts much higher, and as I understand there is no PTE(R) (B) or (T) so their are less jumps for NCM’s and the jumps aren’t as significant as before.

The same goes for the officer trades where it seems folks can hit Captain at OFP

I’d suggest that this whole debacle could have been avoided, I’m not sure if the blame can go all the way back to Unification with the change from Cpl as the Section Commander and the LCpl being the one hook - but the removal of the earlier rank incentives has caused inflated lower rank pay that then doesn’t get corrected by increases in rank or incentives like what occurred before.

I think for NCM’s the creation of a T-Sgt rank for SME positions that might otherwise sit at Cpl could help (similar to the WO scheme down here). You could have 15 pay incentives in that ‘rank’ or even sub categories for certain tech fields to make them comparable or attractive compared to Civilian jobs.

Wisdom degrades. Times move on.

Much like experience, the longer one is away from them coal face the less that experience, or wisdom, is worth.

Its hard, and important, for people to realize when its time to step back, and recognize their input is out of touch.

Especially when it comes to an organization like the CAF where people care so deeply and emotionally about it.

 

[GR66]

The dissatisfaction points are likely highly connected. Certainly pay and benefits need to be at a certain level to make the job attractive and cost of housing definitely has to be addresses (as it does with Canadian society as a whole, not just for the CAF).

How much of the dissatisfaction with pay though is related to the general dissatisfaction in other areas. If you hate your job because of poor leadership, lack of direction, crappy kit, etc. then of course you're going to want to get greater compensation for putting up with all of that.

Solve the housing issue and seriously address the other issues and I bet you'd see the dissatisfaction levels over compensation go down as well.

 

[dapaterson]

Maybe we should stand up a two star org to poll members for feedback, with absolutely perfect polling data. The quest for perfect data is part of how we got to where we are right now with HQ bloat.

Dismissing feedback because you don't like the source is part of what got us to the point we are at currently. Disgruntled people become disgruntled for a reason, ignoring them because you don't like their current attitude is silly.

I'd also like to point out that the demographic on this site putting down increased pay is older, established/retired members, who are perhaps out of touch with the reality on the shop/hangar floor right now.

There is a HR org with ample data and ongoing research within DND already. Headed by a defence scientist.

 

[KevinB]

There is a HR org with ample data and ongoing research within DND already. Headed by a defence scientist.

He was being sarcastic. You forgot to put your joke scoop on this morning as it sailed over your head.