Government of Canada Awards Contracts to Sikorsky for New Canadian Forces Mariti

[Sam69]

From dnd.ca:

Government of Canada Awards Contracts to Sikorsky for New Canadian Forces Maritime Helicopter

NRâ “04.090 - November 23, 2004

OTTAWA â ” The Government of Canada today announced the signing of two separate but interrelated contracts with Sikorsky International Operations Inc. for the Maritime Helicopter Project.

The first contract, worth $1.8 billion, covers the acquisition of 28 fully integrated, certified and qualified helicopters with their mission systems installed.

The second contract, valued at $3.2 billion, is for the 20-year in-service support for the helicopters, and includes the construction of a training facility, as well as a simulation and training suite.

â Å“The CH-148 Cyclone will provide our men and women in uniform with a helicopter that can perform the diverse and difficult roles required in today's global security environment,â ? said Defence Minister Bill Graham. â Å“This acquisition is one that will provide significant economic benefits to Canadian companies from coast to coast for decades to come.â ?

â Å“The awarding of these contracts marks the end of an extremely rigorous procurement process, through which Canada has purchased the right helicopter for the Canadian Forces at the best price for Canadians,â ? said the Honourable Scott Brison, Minister of Public Works and Government Services.

â Å“The Canadian Forces are increasingly called upon to respond to challenging and complex operations throughout the world,â ? said General Ray Henault, Chief of the Defence Staff. â Å“The CH-148 Cyclone provides us with a robust, multi-role helicopter that will support our maritime operations well into the future.â ?

Delivery of the first helicopter, to be called the CH-148 Cyclone, is required to be no later than November 2008, with the remaining helicopters to be delivered at a rate of one per month thereafter. The contract has a series of bonuses for early delivery but also imposes penalties for late delivery, making it very much in the company's interest to deliver the helicopters as soon as possible.

 

[Infanteer]

About time....

Hope you like it, Inch.

 

[Torlyn]

The contract has a series of bonuses for early delivery but also imposes penalties for late delivery, making it very much in the company's interest to deliver the helicopters as soon as possible.

This part I like...  I wonder if (as there seems to be some incentive) that we (sorry, the CF) may get the new Helo's sooner?  (fingers crossed)

T

 

[Sam69]

This part I like...  I wonder if (as there seems to be some incentive) that we (sorry, the CF) may get the new Helo's sooner?  (fingers crossed)

T

I think this is highly unlikely (IMHO) as I understand that the incentives are not huge but the challenge of creating this helicopter are (entirely new mission system, folding rotorhead, and ship/helo interface). I am just hopeful that the first aircraft actually arrives in 48 months.

Sam

 

[enfield]

Excellent!

Now.... the Griffon? And perhaps the non-existent troop transport helicopter?

 

[Infanteer]

Being the Canadian Governemnt, they will probably opt to buy back our Chinooks from the Dutch twice the price we sold them for....

 

[Inch]

About time....

Hope you like it, Inch.

I already do. As long as the bloody thing doesn't have as many problems as the Cormorants, we'll be laughing. Too bad there's 18+ months of testing and evaluation on the things before the first helo and crews are ready to embark. So I could be one of the first crews flying, maybe even doing the T&E or I could be flying Sea Kings for up to 8 more years!  

Cheers

 

[Inch]

Excellent!

Now.... the Griffon? And perhaps the non-existent troop transport helicopter?

The Griffon is actually one of the newer pieces of kit in the inventory. Only about 10yrs old.  I would expect fixed wing SAR next followed by the rest of the Hercs, but that remains to be seen.

 

[Acorn]

The Griffon is, of course, the aerial equivalent of MILCOTS. Paint a civvy truck green.

The Army needs real combat helos (recce, light and med lift and attack).

My opinion, worth what you paid for it, I suppose.

Acorn

 

[BillN]

Being the Canadian Governemnt, they will probably opt to buy back our Chinooks from the Dutch twice the price we sold them for....

I don't believe we sold them to the Dutch.  I believe we gave them to them under a NATO "help them out" agreement.  The birds had just come out of Boeing in Arnprior after their mid-life re-build, when shortly after we flew them to Mountain View to go into storage and the two Squadrons were disbanded.

Six months later some of were asked to come back and fly them to Philly to the Boeing Plant.  They were upgraded to D models and off they went to the Dutch. :crybaby:

They were a beautiful thing to fly, and the missions we flew were always interesting and challenging.  I wish we still had them.....I'd still be in  

Cheers,
Bill

 

[Playa69]

http://www.herald.ns.ca/stories/2004/11/24/f146.raw.html

$5b deal to replace Sea Kings has liftoff 

By Michael Tutton / The Canadian Press

Ottawa quietly signed contracts worth $5 billion on Tuesday to replace Canada's geriatric fleet of Sea King helicopters, even though the losing bidder plans to challenge the deal either before the courts or at a trade tribunal.

One of the contracts requires Sikorsky Aircraft Corp. of Stratford, Conn., to build 28 helicopters and begin delivering one per month starting in November 2008 - four years after the signing.

The company faces penalties of up to $100,000 a day, to a maximum of $36 million, if it doesn't meet the deadline.

A portion of the deal, worth about $3.2 billion of the total, sets up a two-decade arrangement for Sikorsky to maintain and support the helicopters.

"I think it's a good deal for the government," Defence Minister Bill Graham said in an interview.

"The contract is written in a way in which we minimize the possibility of facing a delay."

Graham and Public Works Minister Scott Brison first announced the government's decision to buy the Sikorsky H-92 - later dubbed the Cyclone - last July before an audience of Sea King pilots in Nova Scotia.

They said buying the Cyclone was a better bargain than purchasing the larger, three-engine EH-101 Cormorant, built by a British-Italian consortium led by AugustaWestland Inc.

However, the rival bidder launched legal action in August, asking the Federal Court to force Ottawa to hand it the deal or start the decade-long selection process over again.

The 19-page court document, filed Sept. 1, charged that the government's evaluation of the bids was "biased, unfair and contrary to the rules of the procurement."

The documents also said that Sikorsky's helicopter faces "major redesign hurdles to operate on a ship" and that the "minister is aware that Sikorsky cannot meet the mandatory 48-month deadline."

As well, the first delivery will take at least six years, rather than four years, Augusta-Westland said.

None of these allegations have been proven in court.

A spokesman for the Public Works Department, which is handling the contract, said Ottawa is convinced the helicopters will be delivered on time.

"You have to appreciate that Sikorsky is a very capable manufacturer," said Michel Lapointe. "It has been doing this for 50 years."

Earlier this month, the Federal Court ruled the case can't go forward until the Canadian International Trade Tribunal determines whether it will deal with the matter.

A ruling is expected this week.

But Lapointe said Ottawa was unwilling to delay the contract signing due to legal proceedings.

"Just think of the project office of 100 or so people and you have to maintain this group six months longer," he said.

Lee Myrhaugen, a former Sea King pilot and squadron commander, said he was surprised the deal was signed before the complaints and lawsuits were settled.

"It suggests to me that somebody (in Ottawa) is of the opinion that the litigation isn't sufficient to hold up the contract," he said.

The new helicopters will be used for anti-submarine patrols and reconnaissance.

In Nova Scotia, where most of the helicopters will be based, the reaction among pilots to the contract announcement was cautious.

"We've been through this for 20 years, those of us that have been in the community that long," said Victor Ruzgys, a Sea King pilot at 12 Wing Shearwater.

"We're not about to cheer for anything. We'll cheer when we see the aircraft on the ramp."

Under the contract, the last of the Cyclones is expected be delivered in 2011 - almost 50 years after the first Sea King took to the air over Shearwater.

Meanwhile, the existing Sea King fleet - involved in four fatal crashes that have claimed at least 10 lives over the years - will require about 30 hours of maintenance for every hour of flying time.

The contract is the latest step in a saga that began in the 1980s, when the Defence Department set out to replace the CH-124 Sea King - also a Sikorsky product.

The matter could have been settled when Brian Mulroney's Conservative government ordered 50 EH-101 helicopters - essentially a fancier version of the Cormorant - in 1992.

But the $5.8-billion contract was cancelled by former Liberal prime minister Jean Chretien, who declared in the 1993 election campaign that the helicopters were "Cadillacs" the country couldn't afford

 

[Playa69]

Backgrounder
The Maritime Helicopter Project http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/newsroom/view_news_e.asp?id=1521

 

[Infanteer]

Do you have anything to say, or are you just filling the board with new articles on topics that have already been posted?

 

[Matt_Fisher]

I don't believe we sold them to the Dutch.  I believe we gave them to them under a NATO "help them out" agreement.  The birds had just come out of Boeing in Arnprior after their mid-life re-build, when shortly after we flew them to Mountain View to go into storage and the two Squadrons were disbanded.

Six months later some of were asked to come back and fly them to Philly to the Boeing Plant.  They were upgraded to D models and off they went to the Dutch. :crybaby:

They were a beautiful thing to fly, and the missions we flew were always interesting and challenging.  I wish we still had them.....I'd still be in  

Cheers,
Bill

I think that getting rid of the Chinook was probably one of the most short-sighted things that DND ever did.  It has made the CFs completely dependent on the ability of coalition forces with airlift capability.  This had to be a serious kick in the teeth for the light community in terms of operational capabilities and training opportunities.

 

[Playa69]

Do you have anything to say, or are you just filling the board with new articles on topics that have already been posted?

First of all, I'm just adding an article in my view that correlates well to the one that has been posted. If that's a problem, by all means please delete it. Contemplating on your reasoning, I do not want to waste anyone's time, nor do I want to "fill" the board unnecessarily. What might have been is an abstraction, remaining a perpetual possibility only in a world of speculation. Sorry i wasn't productive enough, next time I'll work up to your expectations!

Concerning if I have anything to say towards this topic; as a matter of fact, i do. I'm not going to applaud the government because this process has been incredibly slow and carelessly flawed (project delayed for 10 years) by choosing a helicopter that has no "track record because Canada will be the first to use it as a military aircraft", and thats a risk for our crews.

I understand that the government plans to buy 28, bargain-priced Sikorsky Cyclones to replace Canada's fleet of Sea King helicopters, but do you firmly believe that the "Sikorsky H-92 helicopter represents the right helicopter for the Canadian Forces at the best price for Canadians?" In fact, the Defence Department had long pushed the government to buy the more expensive Cormorant as far back as 1987.

I don't know if any of you guys know Sgt. Phil Moffitt (Halifax-based retires next fall after 27 years working and flying Sea Kings), said he would have preferred the Cormorant. "We already have that aircraft (the Cormorant) in the Canadian Forces. It would be better for cross training for technicians and air crew," and "Its size, reliability, the fact it has the extra engine - in my opinion, it's the best aircraft for the job," he said.

Now $1.8 billion for 28 helicopters and $3.2 billion for 20 years of service and parts might sound like a good investment: The twin-engine S-92 is less expensive than its chief rival, the larger, three-engine EH-101 Cormorant. But in the end, its seems like they are trying to lower the bar as if the Liberal government was set on destroying Canada's military. The decisions made are not appropriate military decisions.

Saying the lighter aircraft is capable of fulfilling its role as the "eyes and ears" of Canada's 12 frigates -- I'll only believe it when i see it.

"In the long run the political posturing has cost us far more money, plus we got far less value, than the original reasonably good purchase decision that was made over 10 years ago."

Edit:

CTV.ca, Ottawa awards $3.2B chopper contract to Sikorsky, News Staff, July 24 2004
URL: http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1090582695264_85991895/?hub=Canada Viewed: November 24, 2004

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

GhostRaven I think if you read the Navy/AirForce/Joint forums you will see that the people who wil be flying this aircraft are more then happpy with its selection.

 

[aesop081]

Let me put it to you straight:

As a guy who is facing the prospect of flying Sea kings, this is a good buy for the forces.  Yes the cyclone is untried, but so what ?  As for the cormorant, talk to anybody who works on them at the moment and ask what the problems are for that airframe ( winshield craking on T/O,  premature avionics failure, tal rotor prblems, fule system problems, not to mention the way the A/C itself is built) and see that the EH-101 is not the "be-all-end-all".

Yes, we have waited far too long and spent way too much money on this, but i'm glad that there is now a replacement in sight. From what we have been breifed on the cyclone's mission suite, it WILL be the "eyes and ears" of the fleet and will enable us to jump into the 21st century , at least as far as sensor integration and dataliks are concerned.

I may have limited time/experience in as an AESOp, but i am jumping for joy.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Hopefully your waiting as long for the new hello as we are for rucksacks.

 

[aesop081]

I left the army tired of waiting for new kit.....now i'm waiting for new kit in the air force.............

I see a trend forming 

 

[Inch]

Ghostraven, what exactly are you basing your opinions on? Please don't tell me you're basing it on what the media tells you or the out of context quotes that they chose to use from a guy that to my knowledge is not an AESOp so therefore must be a technician that flys in the Sea King once in a blue moon.

Here's my thoughts on similar aircraft:

http://army.ca/forums/threads/22082/post-117638.html#msg117638

One point that I didn't bring up there that someone else brought up, is Search and Rescue. If you have the same aircraft and one of them has a problem (read tail rotor hub cracks on the Cormorant), then your entire fleet is grounded. That's all well and good, but do you know who's doing SAR on the coasts right now? That's right, the 40+ year old Sea Kings because the brand new Cormorants are grounded.  At least you have someone to cover the SAR duties while one of the fleets is grounded, I would say that peoples lives are far more important than the peanuts you're going to save, if any, by having the same aircraft.

Anyway, you're entitled to your opinion, I just wish you'd research a little more before telling us what a bum deal we got.