Green In the Desert...

[Britney Spears]

The Germans had a reversible smock during WW2.

I was an avid reader of <a href=http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/morecammo.html>this site</a> as well as <a href=http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/cammo.html>this</a>.

I am quite partial to the following concepts:

- The old Werhmarcht grey was a pretty good basic uniform color, since grey and brown tends to blend in with everything. Even OD would too. I'm not a huge fan of the various disruptive pattern stuff, especially our green cadpat, because green doesn't blend with anything except green.

- On top of the basic shirt and trousers, one could wear body armour, also of a neutral color, and over that, a loose fitting camoflage smock, whose primary purpose woul dbe camoflague and not insulation.

- Webbing and Packs, with their straigh lines are much more visible than body parts. Long black straight rifles are the most visible. To address the issue of cam and concealment the first priority should be breaking up the silouette of one's webbing, pack, and rifle. The colour of one's shirt or trousers is rather minor in comparison.

- The utility of disruptive pattern uniforms are vastly overrated. 99% of sneaking around consits of noise discipline, alertness, and good fieldcraft. uniform colors may occasionally playa  role but overall their role is minor. I would not feel particularly disadvantaged if I had to wear OD in places like Afghanistan, and like most people know, after a little time in the field you'll be wearing half the training area anyway. I am confident that our forefathers were equally effective at cam/concealment without any fancy digital patterned uniforms.

 

[pappy]

The USMC did the reversible camies in WW2, "Green side/Brown side"  but they where hot, and heavy...

as to one posters question as to way spend $$$$$$$.... becuase it's better to spend money on something that will save Marines and soldiers lives...  anything that can help breakup and inhibit the enemy from spotting our men is moeny well spent.

 

[TCBF]

Remember the old cover cam helmet?  The original ones were green pattern/brown pattern reversable.  In the late seventies or so, it swiched to just green pattern.

'Feldgrau' is the colour I would go with if I had a choice of straight colours.  Pants, shirts, M-48s, it worked fine on everything. 

Dirty works too, but has it's disadvantages.


Tom

 

[Edward Campbell]

We did trials back about 1980 (I can't remember the exact year but Charlie Belzile was commanding the army, for whatever that's worth).  We (Mobile Command units, not me, personally) tested a variety of disruptive patterns plus 'new'/green and 'well laundered'/almost grey combat uniforms.  The tests were conducted in several places in Canada, including Wainwright badlands and Gagetown swamps.  Uniforms were tested 'as is' and then the tests were repeated with soldiers encouraged to supplement the cam with grass/leaves/dirt, etc.  The laundered/green-grey combats won, easily, test after test.

I think that was one of the reasons we ended up with the disruptive pattern garrison jackets.  Some commanders, reflecting, I think, strong opinions from their troops, wanted disruptive pattern (paint by numbers) uniforms because the Brits and Yanks had 'em.  I recall Charlie Belzile asking one brigade commander if the issue was operational or cosmetic and the consensus, around the table, (I was in the 'second row') was that it was cosmetic.  Shortly after that the much despised work dress was replaced with 'garrison' dress â “ based, loosely, on the SSF's unauthorized version.  CADPAT came in 10 or 15 years later - after I had retired.

 

[jmackenzie_15]

It makes more sense to me, given our governments history of spending on the military, to save as much money as possible, while
still remaining effective.In my opinion, an overall cam pattern like the american ACU, that works 'fairly' well in ALL environments, is a better
investment than 3 different patterns that work VERY well, but only in their respective environments.

Also, like someone else stated earlier, the combat theatre can rapidly change today.An arid desert combat pattern would work well in the desert, untill you move inside of an old concrete/brick factory or something... then, not so much.

I thought the ACU was silly at first, but ive come to see that it makes more sense than I had originally thought.

Britney makes a good point as well.The Germans may have had it right all those years back.A neutral uniform color that works in as many environments as possible, and focus on cam patterns for things that are more visible and identifying, like gear and rifles.

...yeah.

 

[Britney Spears]

TCBF, Edward Campbell, thanks for restoring my confidence in the Clothe The Soldier Program. It's great to know that the lessons learned 30 years ago are being actively purged from the corporate consciousness. I die a little inside with every new indignity foisted upon me.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Keep thinking, all great ideas started with someone contemplating something apparently innocuous (like gym shorts, for instance).

It's interesting to note, as Matt_Fisher has, that your idea had enough merit that it has already been experimented with by the US Army - that it was ultimately rejected does not mean it was a "bad" idea - don't dismiss such originality as easily as "Meh, it's just something I thought of".

When I was kid, shovelling the G.D. sidewalk after a major snowfall, I began to wonder why we couldn't just heat the sidewalk and melt the snow away.   Imagine my surprise a few years later when I learned that this is EXACTLY what is done on some major plaza's in front of downtown office towers.   Just because I wasn't the ONLY one (or that someone else, unbeknownst to me, had thought of it earlier) to think of it doesn't make the idea any less valid.

Thanks for the advice. I will keep the thought process going. You knever know ...

 

[mcnutt_p]

In basic I was issued the OD combats, they worked great(as far as I could tell). They were a plain color that allowed other colors such as brown from the mud to blend in with them.

When I got CADPAT I noticed they were bright, but after wearing them and having washed them, they dulled down alot allowing them to work just like the old OD cbts that we had.

Is this just me or is there someone else that noticed this?

McNutt

 

[KevinB]

FWIW - I have yet so see anything BLACK in nature - green, grey, brown - but look around It is not a specifically natural colou rin the surroundings. 

FWIW TAN IMHO blends in better than OD


Notwithstanding any of this - Our uniforms are highly flamable, designed poorly and just when the unifrom is laundered anough to dull done th ebright lime green in the relish - the IR coating has worn off.

 

[COBRA-6]

FWIW - I have yet so see anything BLACK in nature - green, grey, brown - but look around It is not a specifically natural colou rin the surroundings.  

Ever been to Sudbury??  ;D

 

[KevinB]

It depends where you are as to who controls your boot colour.

99% of the time when we are trainign no one cares what your footwear is -- we had the Desert/TAN boots past range control rules so you where gtg as long as you where going to be training out past R/C  - Also as soon as you start trainign for operations the footwear issue seems to fly out the window (or maybe I have just taken it that way  )

 

[COBRA-6]

Official direction is that tan boots are not to be worn in Canada, only black boots. That being said we were wearing them on pre-deployment trg in Petawawa last month, to break them in.

 

[KevinB]

OMG Tan boots  ;D

- But I did wear the TV (shudder)

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I'm only guessing here....but tan boots are not allowed for wear in Canada because you have to deploy to get them officially issued. Know what I'm saying

 

[OHara]

I'm only guessing here....but tan boots are not allowed for wear in Canada because you have to deploy to get them officially issued. Know what I'm saying

I do beleive you are right. But if you buy your own and you are in a arid region then I beleive if you get permission then you are allowed. For example, the Vernon Army Cadet Summer Training Center. That is a Arid Region and there are lots of CIC,Reserve Officers along with several NCO's wearing them. This is just my geuss.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Thanks for the input, but we're not talking about Cadet Camp.

 

[OHara]

No, I know that but still. It is still CF members whom train the cadets for them to do there C7 TOET's and things and they wear tanned boots. Just because I said it was a cadet camp doesnt mean that the CF members don't have to follow certain guidelines. But do you see what I mean?

:bullet:

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

No, I know that but still. It is still CF members whom train the cadets for them to do there C7 TOET's and things and they wear tanned boots. Just because I said it was a cadet camp doesnt mean that the CF members don't have to follow certain guidelines. But do you see what I mean?

:bullet:

Are you an expert of CF Dress and Deportment now? Go ahead and go up to a CF member and tell him he/she is out of dress...

 

[OHara]

I have never said anything. The point is people wear the tanned boots because there higher ranking superiors say they can.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Then don't worry about it.