Guns, Gangs and Toronto

[48Highlander]

See, that's the trouble between liberal and Liberal.  The folks you are referring to are socialists, the antithesis of liberals.  This is what my reference was indicating:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal

Yeah, I'm quite aware of that, just trying to point out where the confusion is coming from so you guys can get past arguments based on simple symantics 

On the same note (if a bit off topic), you might enjoy this article:

I'm a "Conservative" because I'm a liberal

 

[Infanteer]

Yeah, I'm quite aware of that, just trying to point out where the confusion is coming from so you guys can get past arguments based on simple symantics 

;D

On the same note (if a bit off topic), you might enjoy this article:

I'm a "Conservative" because I'm a liberal

Nice one.  Highlights very well why I disagree with both "Left" and "Right", or "Conservative" and "Liberal",  on various different things.

 

[mdh]

GO!!!

Here's a good summary on wikipedia about Broken Windows - makes for interesting reading...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_Windows

cheers, mdh

 

[zipperhead_cop]

You contradict yourself. If they look no further than an hour down the road, then how are they supposed to have any sense of consequence??

Don't be so thick.  They don't consider consequence because there IS NO CONSEQUENCE.  So they do whatever they have to at that moment.

Sure. Are you willing to cough up the tax dollars to fund more prisons??

Absolutely.  Please feel free to divert all of my tax contributions that go to welfare and divert them to a fund for a new prison if that means there is space freed up to keep these clowns in for longer.  I would like to see a little less Club Fed and a little more gulag, though.

I'm not trying to be a jerk. But do you mean "discretion"?

Too late.  If this comes down to a spell checker argument, we should sum up and lock this thread.

Bashing of *any* political party/leaning has never been encouraged in terms of providing a logical, rational opinion. Sure, it can influence. But when it comes to outright insults - it never earns credibility.

I guess I have to put a smiley on anything that is supposed to be sarcastic with humorless types around.  And as someone has already mentioned, there is a difference between big "L" and small "l" lliberals.  I am referring to the small l. 

See, that's the trouble between liberal and Liberal.  The folks you are referring to are socialists, the antithesis of liberals.  This is what my reference was indicating:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal

So I apparently should be referring to socialists instead of liberals.  I stand corrected.  My definition is exactly what 48Highlander posted above.

Since my ideas are so easy to attack and completely irrational, how about some solutions from the SOCIALISTS in this debate?  It's pretty easy to hang back and shoot down ideas and spelling but what do you suggest?  Infanteer, some useful protocol from Brad Swallows?  How would he handle Toronto?  What about you, Midget?  From your name and profile, you suggest that you are a police officer in the GTA, so you should have a perfect solution, since you live it everyday, right?  I only speak from experience and from observations of how this system works (or fails to).  We apparently have unlimited band width, so hack away, I can take it.  But maybe take a little time out from the self righteous pious-fest and offer something useful?

 

[Infanteer]

Since my ideas are so easy to attack and completely irrational, how about some solutions from the SOCIALISTS in this debate?  It's pretty easy to hang back and shoot down ideas and spelling but what do you suggest?  Infanteer, some useful protocol from Brad Swallows?

A.  I never questioned your spelling or grammar.

B.  So now I'm a socialist..... :rofl:

We apparently have unlimited band width, so hack away, I can take it.  But maybe take a little time out from the self righteous pious-fest and offer something useful?

The "self righteous pious-fest" is yours and yours alone on this one.  I've given my ideas, go back and read them. 

 

[zipperhead_cop]

The "self righteous pious-fest" is yours and yours alone on this one.  I've given my ideas, go back and read them. 

Reply #11--complaining
Reply #14--someone else's idea, and complaining
Reply #21--opinion
Reply #108--compliment to previous post
Reply #115--good point, but no ideas
Reply #133--someone else's quote
Reply #145--attacking someone else
Reply #158--opinion
Reply #190--practicing math
Reply #192--link to article
Reply #194--opinion starting to slide into the hysterical for point of drama
Reply #196--opinion
Reply #198--opinion attacking me
Reply #201--lots of opinion and a call to maintain the status quo (and a shot at me)
Reply #202--support of existing laws and more shots at me
Reply #206--quote American stats, and finally an idea! "My guess is you need to put the communities destiny in its own hands; they can then drop the ball or run with it.  I guess the question is how does one do this?".  Ah, nuts.  No solutions.
Reply #209--good idea on Immigration
Reply #216--other peoples quotes and downplaying Toronto's problems
Reply #222--point by point cut down of my post, and fun with semantics
Reply #224--someone else's quotes, and an endorsement of forced labor camps and death penalty
Reply #226--call ME a liberal, then more point by point attacks
Reply #227--clarify a point that someone else made
Reply #230--replying to animated smileys
Reply #232--someone else's quote, and an opinion
Reply #236--a link to a definition
Reply #238--comment on link to article
Reply #241--a comment, an animated smiley and a challenge to go back and harvest the usefull solutions already posted. 

So here I am.  Did you mean I was supposed to go through all 8227 of your previous posts for your solutions for gang violence?

 

[Cloud Cover]

I wasn't picking on your spelling per se- I kind of admire the creative flare added by your version of the word.

My impression is that the vast majority of shitheads who belong to gangs (or are generally career criminals) do so because it is a learned behaviour in a socially permissive environment. As a result, changing the social aspect of the environment may be helpful in addressing the problem.

Gangs and affiliated groups of criminals thrive because the state, especially police, are constrained to the point that they are nearly powerless to influence bad social behaviour- especially when faced with the power of a gang mentality. Whatever the state does to intervene in neighborhoods and cultural zones where gangs breed, there will always be those who say it is not enough or that the intervention is structurally imbalanced to favour one group over or at the expense of another. Hence, entitlement and victimhood intersect and work together to worsen a situation that might otherwise be contained.( but never extinguished)  There must be a social explanation, which I gather historically from Infanteers posts, lies with the permissive and tolerant nature of our society which we all have an interest in preserving to the maximum extent possible. One method of countering the gang phenomenon is to attempt to change the nature of the social environment that feeds the desire of young people to belong to gangs or otherwise participate in the criminal culture.   That doesn't mean increasing welfare or creating government supported jobs, it means injecting the necessary seeds of change into an otherwise poisoned garden. And yes, sometimes one has to pull the weeds and perhaps spray a little Round-Up.       

I believe criminal gangs are equal to tribalism, and tribes exist primarily for safety, security and familiarity. Hostile, anti social tribes have  therefore become a particularly nasty but thankfully small segment of what our society has evolved into. Without resorting to a truly oppressive system of laws backed up by extremely intrusive police powers applicable to all who are subject to the law, the only real alternative is to counter the root causes of gang mentality. That means doing things other than law enforcement, but not at the expense of enforcing the law. I don't think we have the right balance right now. That being said, I think in the short run [i.e. the next 40 or so years - 2 generations], we may have to rely on radical police powers to contain the growth of criminal gangs.

Here is the real kicker that a lot of Canadians probably have with the heavy handed approach to dealing with gangs. They do not want to be equally subjected to the intrusive laws and invasive powers which some would have put in place to deal with criminals and criminal organizations - even if they break the law themselves. For some reason, many Canadians would prefer 2 sets of laws in the country- one set for habitual ass clowns and the other set for themselves- (with proper safeguards in place to protect their rights and minimize the consequences of their actions if they should have a mishap and go temporarily astray.)

 

[Cloud Cover]

The USSR was supposed to be a "workers paradise", remember?

You mean it wasn't a paradise? Somebody should tell all those Buzz Hargrove/Liberal hating auto-workers in Oshawa that, because they are going to make sure "Komrad" Sid Ryan gets elected just to spite the Buzzmeister.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

I believe criminal gangs are equal to tribalism, and tribes exist primarily for safety, security and familiarity.

Don't forget massive profit from illegal activities, unless that falls under "security"

Here is the real kicker that a lot of Canadians probably have with the heavy handed approach to dealing with gangs. They do not want to be equally subjected to the intrusive laws and invasive powers which some would have put in place to deal with criminals and criminal organizations - even if they break the law themselves. For some reason, many Canadians would prefer 2 sets of laws in the country- one set for habitual ass clowns and the other set for themselves- (with proper safeguards in place to protect their rights and minimize the consequences of their actions if they should have a mishap and go temporarily astray.)

Having their cake and eating it too is a long standing Canadian tradition.  It won't change any time soon. 
Whisky makes the best collective point I have seen in this thread so far.

 

[Infanteer]

So here I am.  Did you mean I was supposed to go through all 8227 of your previous posts for your solutions for gang violence?

Well, you didn't have to go that far back with your interpretation of this gong-show.  I've stated quite clearly that a more strict justice system and a reformed penal system is one important part of solution.  The fact that a large majority of the crimes are committed by folks who are "known to police" (ie: in some process of the justice system) means that they obviously haven't been "rehabilitated".  Talk to Bruce Monkhouse about the way things work in Canada's jails - you'll see why I'm a little skeptical that criminal punishment is doing anything to help or protect Canadians.

Say we do adopt your proposed solution and grant excessive powers of search and detention and even outlaw "gangsta" clothes.  What is this going to do?  You are simply going to get another reason to catch the same people in the same places probably doing the same things.  You charge him for "gangsta appearance" and he does another quick loop through the justice system and is out in a day.  But now we also add to this the fact that my kid brother is now getting stopped and searched in downtown Vancouver because he has a penchant for large pants and wearing his hat sideways (thankfully he outgrew that trend a few years ago).  Having innocent Canadians subject to unnecessary scrutiny seems to be a big price to pay for such little return as another cycle of some punk through the courts.  It would really suck once it was you or your family that was subject to it - this should be one of the principles of establishing whether an act is just or unjust.  Look at the original position and the "maximin" theory for a further understanding of this principle.

The fact is, midgetcop put up stats to show that there are far bigger dangers in Canada and there a cities with more murders per capita.  The nature of your argument and proposals seem to border on moral panic.  So there is a spike in violence in Toronto.  A few years before it was Indo-Canadian drug dealers popping eachother off in Vancouver.  Was this a grave threat to public welfare and security?  I sure didn't fear for my life every time I set foot in the city during that "crisis".

As far as I am concerned, until Canadians are ready to truly make criminals pay for their flagrant disregard for society's laws, then Canada can reap what it sows and live with guys "known to police" and with Clifford Olson telling us his stories from jail.  My solution is as simple as that - there is no need for increased police powers as the benefit to Canadian society at large is minimal and, with the current justice system, the effects would be negligible.

 

[Infanteer]

I believe criminal gangs are equal to tribalism, and tribes exist primarily for safety, security and familiarity. Hostile, anti social tribes have  therefore become a particularly nasty but thankfully small segment of what our society has evolved into.

Sounds pretty good - it is also no coincidence that rates of violence amongst gang members happens to be quite close to those amongst tribal societies in New Guinea and the amazon.

I would say the "tribal" comparison is apt for street gangs where the payoff is low, but I've seen very convincing construct from a professor (who was also a civilian member of the RCMP) that views "higher" organized crime groups like Hell's Angels or the Mafia as business groups - the prime motivator is economic gain and the use of violence is mainly a method of solving business disputes since recourse to the legal system is out of the question.  "Higher" forms of OC are rational economic pursuits while "lower", street level criminal groups fit the "tribal" paradigm where prestige, protection and belonging are the prime motivators for its members.  Ghiglieri discusses this in great detail in his examination of the male psyche and its inclination to violence.

 

[kcdist]

Here's my solution to the gang/gun problems plaguing all major Canadian cities:

1. Impose mandatory minimum sentences as follows:

-Possession of a handgun - 5 years no parole

-Use of a handgun - 10 years no parole

-Use of a handgun causing death or injury - Life without parole

-Possession of drugs for the purpose of trafficking - 10 years no parole

-Robbery - 10 years no parole

-There would be more, but you get the idea.

2. Impose a 5 strike law. Fifth criminal convictions equals minimum 10 years in jail - No parole

3. Ban concurrent sentencing

4. Remove lifetime tenure for Judges. Place all Judges on five year contracts, with a meaningful review of sentences and results as a condition of renewal. Make the review impartial, however...important principle here...have judges accountable for their decisions with a view to termination if they make enough bad ones.

5. Review immigration policy and race statistics for crime. If one group of immigrants from a particular region or ethnic group is statistically responsible for a disproportion amount of crime, reduce or stop immigration from that area until full integration into society is achieved by those already landed.

6. Introduce a policy that would require the immediate deportation of any immigrant with less than five years residence in Canada upon conviction of a criminal offense. Time would be measured upon commission of the crime and not conviction. Reduce any appeal period to a maximum of thirty days.

7. Immediately tackle the problem of illegal immigration. Significantly increase the manpower of the immigration department to allow for a major crackdown in the numbers of illegal immigrants, both those in the country illegally, and those who have been 'deported' but have not left. Take steps to reduce the onerous appeal procedures to a level deemed reasonable by the majority of Canadians.

8. Remove mandatory parole as a tenet of our legal system.

9. Make serving time in prison 'hard time'. Relocate prisons or build new ones in economically depressed and isolated areas of the country, far away from the influences of major cities. Make the prisons follow the model of Canadian Forces detention centres.

10. Review social programs in affected areas with a view to developing targeted programs specifically designed to assist those wishing to leave the gang lifestyle. 

11. Appoint a gang Czar as a cabinet level position within the Federal Government. The Czar would we responsible for overall coordination of all efforts across all departments.

12. Provide immediate funding for additional prisons, immigration officers, immigration board members, police services, social programs and any other area required for the implementation of the above policies.


I agree that, statistically, there doesn't appear to be a major crime problem in Canada. But that argument, my friends, is a cop out. There is no reason for Canada to have any problem with gangs or organized crime. Canada is a weathly country, where even our impoverished are well taken care of. Racism and Classism are not major factors. We have little historical baggage (1st Nations excepted). Social resources are readily available for those that desire them. Poverty and 'hopelessness' are self induced. Show me a 'barrier', and I'll show you an excuse.

 

[Infanteer]

That seems like a good list of solutions - it is one I would support after some fine tuning.

The only quibble I have is "But that argument, my friends, is a cop out. There is no reason for Canada to have any problem with gangs or organized crime." - I think crime is just one of those things that is part and parcel of civilization; you won't get rid of it.  If you successfully address this "street level" crime, then it morphs into blue collar (bikers) or white collar (Enron) organized criminal activity.  Even serene Japan has the Yakuza.  Crime and punishment will be an eternal struggle for any human society - however, anyone who says that we can't target it aggressively is copping out; all we need is the will to do so.

 

[Blackhorse7]

What about Judges having to run for election, like they do in the US?  I think that may put more pressure on them to take into account public opinion when convicting some of our repeat offenders.

 

[Infanteer]

What about Judges having to run for election, like they do in the US?  I think that may put more pressure on them to take into account public opinion when convicting some of our repeat offenders.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/27758.0.html

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Wow, did we argue ourselves to almost being in concensus?
Infanteer, just so I am being clear--only for confirmed organized gangs ie)HA's, Banditos, Crips, Bloods who go out of their way to be identifiable should the membership laws be firmed up.  I also don't believe that having your ass hanging out of the back of your pants should be arrestable.  HOWEVER, if someone chooses to look or act in a criminal way, they should not be blown away when they get some police attention.  There are whole fashion lines that are dedicated to clothing specifically designed to hide weapons and drugs from searches.  If I see anyone wearing a fanny pack that I know to be a holster, I will stop them.  As far as the revolving door, the concept of "rehabilitation" should be pushed to the rear, and get back to "punishment".  Simple cause and effect.
So far as my family getting stopped, if any of them chose to go out looking like a gang banger and got checked out, then I would tell them to get used to it and revel in the glory that is being a criminal.
KCDist pegs it when he says that Canada doesn't have to get as bad as the US.  It may seem like we live in a utopia of freedoms and liberties, but the fact is criminals just see that as weak and abuse their privileges.  There have been suspensions in the Charter, when there was sufficient cause.  For example the ability to pull over a car and require the driver to identify themselves does technically violate sections 8 and 9, but the Supreme Court of Canada ruled that this was a reasonable suspension of rights, for the greater good of the public. 
KCDist's ideas should be printed off and drafted as a private members bill.  With the member support on this site being so widely distributed across Canada, I have to believe that we could get it off the ground and at least one reading before it got shredded.  Maybe that would be enough to spark a national debate?  Anybody know how to go about doing one of those?

 

[Brad Sallows]

>Infanteer, some useful protocol from Brad Swallows?  How would he handle Toronto?

I don't have a complete solution, but I would not proceed from the assumption that a few bad neighbourhoods and/or zones in a few major Canadian cities justifies limiting freedoms of all residents of those cities, let alone all of a province or all of the nation.  Whenever I hear proposals that the solution to crime is to more closely monitor honest people and intrude into our lives, I am inclined to disarm the police and arm the citizens.

One of the problems facing Canada is the lack of will to address a problem only where it exists and politely tell the complainers to fcuk off when they bitch that they are being discriminated against.

 

[NavComm]

Anybody know how to go about doing one of those?

Try Randy White, Conservative member of parliament for Abbotsford, BC. randy.white@shawcable.com

He'd probably introduce a bill like that. He's always talking about how soft we are on criminals and I'm pretty sure he would support the list.

 

[3rd Herd]

Did not the MP from the lower mainland who recently died of cancer continually push for a strenghtening of the Criminal code? (Sorry I cannot remember his name at this moment)

 

[Old Sweat]

Do you mean Chuick Cadman? I believe his son was killed by a gang or in a mugging and Chuck became a law and order advocate.