Hamas invaded Israel 2023 Megathread

[PrairieFella]

Israel is hardly a rogue state. It's a parliamentary democracy, human rights, and guaranteed voting rights.

Rogues states are: North Korea, Iran, Libya under Ghadaffi, Syria, etc.

South Africa also had a parliamentary democracy, human rights and guaranteed voting rights - for some.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Guaranteed voting rights and human rights for some. They are a segregated society which actively prevents many living in the country from getting citizenship.



So we should just not fix or attempt to fix genocide and terrorism because the extremists will keep pushing for more? That is like saying the States should never have integrated their population because the USSR used it as propaganda. Evil triumphs when good men do nothing.

Apparently the Good Men Persons (FTFY) take the easy route all the time to earn their accolades, it's easy and safe to go after Israel and Jews and until recently in the comfort and safety provide by said "Evil State" Here is a list of some of the Israel supreme court case, call me when you found successful cases against the government in KSA, UAE or Qatar Summary of cases from the Israeli Supreme Court, 2019-2020 | Cardozo Israeli Supreme Court Project

 

[Brad Sallows]

So we should just not fix or attempt to fix genocide and terrorism beause the extremists will keep pushing for more? That is like saying the States should never have integrated their population because the USSR used it as propaganda. Evil triumphs when good men do nothing.

People who object to Israel would love it if moderates would concentrate all their fire on Israel. My point is that moderates might consider concentrating their fire on illiberal societies in due proportion to how illiberal those societies are. For my part, I haven't enough time to complain sufficiently about all the really egregious ones, which leaves less than no time for passing Israel under the harrow other than simply noting the existence of its flaws.

What the world needs is for pretty much all the Islamic countries from Morocco to Pakistan to achieve a level of civil and religious reform comparable to the evolution of the mostly Christian countries over the past 500 years. That's Job One.

 

[Infanteer]

Guaranteed voting rights and human rights for some. They are a segregated society which actively prevents many living in the country from getting citizenship.

Who is that?

 

[Brad Sallows]

South Africa also had a parliamentary democracy, human rights and guaranteed voting rights - for some.

Sure. That was us a while back, too.

Countries and societies are progressing at different rates and occasionally there is backsliding. Critically, some are a greater threat to liberalism than others. Israel is not a particularly great threat to liberalism or at risk of backsliding except under existential pressure.

It'd be one thing if Canada was simply home to some well-intentioned critics of Israel, but it is beyond contradiction that some of the people Canada has been admitting are opposed not only to the existence of Israel, but also the existence of Canada as long as it falls outside the permitted boundaries of their ideologies. We need to end that, and we need to focus limited resources on the greatest problems. We ought to be pushing liberalism in large chunks where it is most absent, not fighting rearguard actions to prevent barbarians from replacing liberalism where it happens to be imperfect (which is still the case everywhere) and giving them comfort by appearing to take their sides. We get in their faces and advance our ideas on their turf, not they on ours.

I am confident that if existential pressure against Israel were removed, much of its illiberal behaviour would also disappear.

I am confident that what Israel is right now is better (much, much, much better) than any likely replacement, given the cultures and attitudes in the region. It's close to the apex of idiocy to sit in judgement without serious contemplation of what the practical alternatives are.