Hamas invaded Israel 2023

[daftandbarmy]

This is a refusal to acknowledge reality that will continue to get Palistinians killed. Cling to it, and you bear as much blame for dead Palestinian Arabs, including innocents, as anyone else.

He's not alone in the world, of course. There are a few states that have not recognized Israel yet too, although the threat of another state-erasing 'Yom Kippur type' invasion seems vanishingly remote these days....

Mapped: Which Countries Recognize Israel or Palestine, or Both?

In this visualization, we look at how international recognition of Israel and Palestine breaks down among the 193 UN member states.

www.visualcapitalist.com

 

[abduly85]

I really don't know who to respond to and I really need a clone to catch up!
I'll try to be a succinct as possible.

And we’re all still waiting for the Muslim brotherhood and sisterhood of the region to show a small amount of compassion to their Palestinian Gazan fellow Muslims.

I recall someone saying, “None of you truly believes until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself.” Now who was that again?

Arab and Muslim populations are extremely compassionate and supportive of the Palestinians to levels you wouldn't even expect. However, and we've mentioned this before, most arab governments are authoritarian / dictatorships (supported by the west of course) and they're not really allowing their own people show their support in any way (be it a protest, boycott movements.. Etc).

What you quoted at the end is a hadith by Prophet Mohammed (PBUH). It's indeed one of the most important hadiths in islam.

You do realize that Israel isn't going anywhere, right? It's the only democratic nation in the middle east and a hub for modern technology and education. What does the rest of the middle east have going for them, oil? Until your reluctance to recognize Israel changes, the people of gaza will forever live in squalor and under an umbrella of terror and suffering.

• Israel is not a democratic nation. Israel has been controlling the whole area from the river to the sea for the past 57 years where over 5 million Palestinians can't vote or even have basic human rights (WB & Gaza). Even within the Green Line, Israel has passed laws that discriminates between its citizens (especially Arab citizens, like the 2018 law that states that only Jewish people have the right to exercise national self-determination, promotes and encourages illegal settlements.. Etc”
• "Israel...a hub for modern technology and education". So? That's a very colonial way of thinking (ie. We're technologically more advanced so we're entitled to ethnically cleanse you and occupy your lands). Irrelevant argument.
• My lack of support for the existence of the apartheid state of Israel is not responsible for the suffering of the Palestinians. The PLO renounced armed resistance in the late 80's recognized the state of Israel and signed the disastrous Oslo peace accords 30 years ago.... And in return WB Palestinians got more occupation and over 750,000 illegal Jewish settlers and settlement expansion. So it is israeli occupation that's making Palestinianss live under squalor not the "mindset" of the Palestinians.

Muslims routinely blow up or assassinate each other in Mosques. Not to mention storing weapons in them.

Please back it up with evidence that this mosque had what you claim above.
I don't even think the IDF cared to comment on its troops occupying and desecrating this mosque (I mean they normalized attacking almost every type of civilian infrastructure with impunity).

OK. And along with that, I'll stipulate that there are some kinds of hateful forbidden acts that Israeli soldiers commit even if I don't know what the acts are or whether any proof exists. It's improbable that exactly no such things will happen.

But I just don't care. Or rather: in the abstract, I care in the sense that I'd prefer that at least the advanced technologically modern wealthy countries and all of the people acting in those countries' names conduct themselves within the bounds of law and custom and civility 100% of the time. But compared to starting a shooting war and executing, raping, and kidnapping anyone - combatants or non-combatants - I just don't care about slogans on walls, structural damage, impious usages, intemperate remarks, etc.

Here in Canada people sometimes speak of the "French Fact", which to me (at least) is a way of expressing recognition of the way things are and thus a frame in which everything we do must be situated. We also have an "Aboriginal Fact", and certainly a "British Fact", and since somewhat before the era of mass immigration started, a lot of smaller "Facts".

Israel is a "Fact", and if it can't be negotiated away, it will have to be conquered - by war, or by mass immigration. If Israelis are unwilling to allow any kind of principles to stand in the way of preventing demographic absorption to the point at which Israel as it currently exists can be extinguished, that leaves war. And I see no reason for Israelis to allow any kind of principles to stand in the way of creating de facto borders and security zones that make it hard to attack militarily. It took no time at all after Oct 7 for plain old anti-Jewish sentiment to surge from all sorts of places and institutions around the world and show exactly where things stand. If it will take 5 decades of absolute peace and absence of any ill intent anywhere to convince Israel to relax, the clock has been reset to 50 years.

And I'll add a key fact that you missed... Which is that Palestinians are a "Fact" and as long as Israel continues its illegal occupation and denial of Palestinians' rights and unless Israel kills every Palestinian there will always be resistance to the occupation.

You know when Mosques and other protected sites are used for unlawful purposes they lose their protection right?

Please back it up with evidence that this mosque had what you claim.
Just to help you, this mosque is located right outside the Rafah border / crossing which Israel invaded a couple of months ago.
And to prove to you that Israel is just burning what it wants, this is what they did to the Rafah crossing a few weeks after occupying (link below) . They just torched it even though I haven't heard of the IDF claiming there were "terrorists" there!
That crossing was the only way out of Gaza for almost all evacuaess and the injured into Egypt. Why would Israel just burn it down? They're strangling Gaza as a form of collective punishment.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1802482300988313647

The irony of lamenting Israel as an apartheid state when it comes from apologists for a group that actively and openly practices apartheid when it comes to women, LGBTQ, non Muslims etc.

right…

Not sure what metric you're using, but Israel has killed people and destroyed towns way way more than what all the Palestinian factions combined did since 1948. I like to keep a standard, if Palestinian factions are considered terrorists, then Israel is that x 50.

Mohammed was a pedophile was he not? Did he not consummate his marriage to Aisha when she was 10?

Nope he wasn't. He was the best human who ever walked this earth to bring God's message to the world.
I don't want to digress but here's a recommended book so your heart might be guided inshallah:

Amazon.ca

 

[Good2Golf]

Arab and Muslim populations are extremely compassionate and supportive of the Palestinians to levels you wouldn't even expect. However, and we've mentioned this before, most arab governments are authoritarian / dictatorships (supported by the west of course) and they're not really allowing their own people show their support in any way (be it a protest, boycott movements.. Etc).

But what matter across borders is the will of respective governments, so ‘thoughts and prayers’ from the people of the region, the Saudis, Egyptians, Kuwaitis, Emiratis, Jordanians, Qataris, Bahrainians, Iraqis, Syrians, Lebanese doesn’t matter at all. The authoritarian governments have the means to assist Palestinians, but chose not to.

What you quoted at the end is a hadith by Prophet Mohammed (PBUH). It's indeed one of the most important hadiths in islam.

Indeed, and was quoted on purpose, to make the case that the chasm between what the Prophet teaches, and what Muslims practice in real life can be and in the case of Palestine, markedly different. Why isn’t a single Islamic nation reaching out to its Palestinian brothers and sisters in faith, and helping them? It isn’t a good look for Arab Muslims to be ignoring the words of the Prophet.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Nope he wasn't.

Not to digress but that seems to contravene a bunch of hadiths and Islamic scholars.

 

[ueo]

I really don't know who to respond to and I really need a clone to catch up!
I'll try to be a succinct as possible.


Arab and Muslim populations are extremely compassionate and supportive of the Palestinians to levels you wouldn't even expect. However, and we've mentioned this before, most arab governments are authoritarian / dictatorships (supported by the west of course) and they're not really allowing their own people show their support in any way (be it a protest, boycott movements.. Etc).

What you quoted at the end is a hadith by Prophet Mohammed (PBUH). It's indeed one of the most important hadiths in islam.

• Israel is not a democratic nation. Israel has been controlling the whole area from the river to the sea for the past 57 years where over 5 million Palestinians can't vote or even have basic human rights (WB & Gaza). Even within the Green Line, Israel has passed laws that discriminates between its citizens (especially Arab citizens, like the 2018 law that states that only Jewish people have the right to exercise national self-determination, promotes and encourages illegal settlements.. Etc”
• "Israel...a hub for modern technology and education". So? That's a very colonial way of thinking (ie. We're technologically more advanced so we're entitled to ethnically cleanse you and occupy your lands). Irrelevant argument.
• My lack of support for the existence of the apartheid state of Israel is not responsible for the suffering of the Palestinians. The PLO renounced armed resistance in the late 80's recognized the state of Israel and signed the disastrous Oslo peace accords 30 years ago.... And in return WB Palestinians got more occupation and over 750,000 illegal Jewish settlers and settlement expansion. So it is israeli occupation that's making Palestinianss live under squalor not the "mindset" of the Palestinians.

Please back it up with evidence that this mosque had what you claim above.
I don't even think the IDF cared to comment on its troops occupying and desecrating this mosque (I mean they normalized attacking almost every type of civilian infrastructure with impunity).


And I'll add a key fact that you missed... Which is that Palestinians are a "Fact" and as long as Israel continues its illegal occupation and denial of Palestinians' rights and unless Israel kills every Palestinian there will always be resistance to the occupation.


Please back it up with evidence that this mosque had what you claim.
Just to help you, this mosque is located right outside the Rafah border / crossing which Israel invaded a couple of months ago.
And to prove to you that Israel is just burning what it wants, this is what they did to the Rafah crossing a few weeks after occupying (link below) . They just torched it even though I haven't heard of the IDF claiming there were "terrorists" there!
That crossing was the only way out of Gaza for almost all evacuaess and the injured into Egypt. Why would Israel just burn it down? They're strangling Gaza as a form of collective punishment.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1802482300988313647

Not sure what metric you're using, but Israel has killed people and destroyed towns way way more than what all the Palestinian factions combined did since 1948. I like to keep a standard, if Palestinian factions are considered terrorists, then Israel is that x 50.


Nope he wasn't. He was the best human who ever walked this earth to bring God's message to the world.
I don't want to digress but here's a recommended book so your heart might be guided inshallah:

Amazon.ca

POV I suppose, or belief or indoctrination?

 

[Brad Sallows]

And I'll add a key fact that you missed... Which is that Palestinians are a "Fact" and as long as Israel continues its illegal occupation and denial of Palestinians' rights and unless Israel kills every Palestinian there will always be resistance to the occupation.

Yes, they're a "Fact". Unfortunately the original nearly-indefensible design of Israel's borders combined with the unwillingness of its neighbours to accept the imposed partition assured that eventually at least part of the West Bank would have to be occupied, either as part of Israel or an Israeli-controlled security zone. Several attempts were made to extinguish Israel, which essentially legitimized the "might makes right" situation on the ground there now. Whatever international law has to say about taking territory as spoils of war is absurd in the frame of "you have to give them back their land after each failed attack, even though they are likely to do it again and it gives them advantages".

There can be no peace with Israel if the conditions always have to include factors that threaten Israel's security (return of territory, right of return). The widespread anti-Jewishness permeating political institutions and objectors to Israel's conduct means there are no guarantees any nation or institution can make that Israel can trust. Anti-Jewishness can't be purged by anyone from the outside - it has to be purged from the inside. That means the UN, the universities, the communities, etc.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Please back it up with evidence that this mosque had what you claim above.
I don't even think the IDF cared to comment on its troops occupying and desecrating this mosque (I mean they normalized attacking almost every type of civilian infrastructure with impunity).

You missed the thrust of my point. Which is that Muslim don't care about the sanctuary of Mosque when going after their enemies. Assassinations and blowing up Mosques has been quite common in Islamic States and done by Muslims killing Muslims.

Also Muslims have a long history of using Mosques as a place to store weapons, in almost every modern conflict where a mosque was located. They only care about a mosque being violated when it's to their advantage.

 

[Quirky]

Why would Israel just burn it down? They're strangling Gaza as a form of collective punishment.

I hope October 7th was worth it. Most gazans supported it.

 

[QV]

I hope October 7th was worth it. Most gazans supported it.

Hard to comprehend just how little any forward thinking is done in that area.... What did they expect would happen?

 

[Quirky]

Hard to comprehend just how little any forward thinking is done in that area.... What did they expect would happen?

I think the Hamas expectation was for other Arab nations to invade as well....a la 1948. Since the majority those other unfriendly nations to Israel are cowards and technologically/militarily inferior, they smartly decided to stay home. Hezbollah is the next group that's about to find out.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Hard to comprehend just how little any forward thinking is done in that area.... What did they expect would happen?

They were duped by Tehran into doing it thinking they would get more support. Tehran was happy to burn one of it chips in exchange for derailing the Abrahamic Accords. The Palestinians Leaders have a long history of backing the wrong horses. For Tehran Oct 7th was the way to poison the well for the region. they need chaos to operate in, as they are incapable of operating a country in a normal sense.

 

[Brad Sallows]

I think the Hamas expectation was for other Arab nations to invade as well....a la 1948. Since the majority those other unfriendly nations to Israel are cowards and technologically/militarily inferior, they smartly decided to stay home. Hezbollah is the next group that's about to find out.

To the extent that any plan beyond simply lashing out every once in a while occurs to them, the strategic concept is obvious - act outrageously in hopes of provoking an outrageous response. Many observers are inclined to downplay atrocities against Israel and inflate Israel's misdeeds, so the attackers enjoy a fractional (< 1.0) multiplier applied to perceptions of their own actions and an inflationary (> 1.0) multiplier applied to Israel's.

The template for sympathizers is to be patient. Some anti-Israel people rolled out their usual playbook immediately and were embarrassed by the magnitude of the horror they were supporting as the details emerged, but all they needed to make it safe to crawl out from their sewers was for enough time to pass.

 

[Jarnhamar]

McGill clears pro-Palestinian encampment with private security, front loader​

No, not these guys. Maybe next time.

 

[abduly85]

The authoritarian governments have the means to assist Palestinians, but chose not to.

Exactly. We're on the same page on this one.

Why isn’t a single Islamic nation reaching out to its Palestinian brothers and sisters in faith, and helping them? It isn’t a good look for Arab Muslims to be ignoring the words of the Prophet.

Spot on. This is the sentiment shared by the average Arab/Muslim almost anywhere (you actually sound like the Imam at the Friday sermons I attend!).

You ask why. Well, it's because most Arab regimes are corrupt regimes that compete in pleasing the US and adopting its foreign policy in the region.
The contrary is evident when these same regimes are representative of its people. For example, compare the current Egyptian response (or lack thereof) under the Sisi military rule to Egypt's response to the 2012 Gaza war. Back then, Egypt had their first and only democratically elected President (Mohammed Morsi) and Parliament. The day after the war broke out, the Egyptian Prime Minister himself (Hisham Qandil) crossed the border and went into Gaza to show Egypt's solidarity (of course Israel would not bomb him risking an escalation with Egypt's). Egypt then brokered a ceasefire deal within 1 week that was favoured and celebrated by the Palestinians.
So yeah, when actual representative regimes are elected, you see actual solidarity and concrete actions... Versus the current military dictatorships supported by the US/West.


Link to news article of Egypt's PM visiting Gaza during the 2012 war:

Egypt PM in Gaza to voice solidarity, broker truce; Israeli operation set to continue for 'days' - Politics - Egypt

Hisham Qandil arrives in Gaza to express solidarity with strip's 1.7 million besieged residents as continued Israeli aggression revives memories of 2008/09 'Cast Lead' onslaught

english.ahram.org.eg

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

And I guess Egypt was smart enough to say we're not doing that crap again after the atrocities of Oct 7.

 

[Good2Golf]

Well, it's because most Arab regimes are corrupt regimes that compete in pleasing the US and adopting its foreign policy in the region.

Although Jordan was arguably a regime when it supported Palestinians, particularly those in the West Bank, granting them Jordanian citizenship…up until Black September in 1970. That’s when the PLO’s attempt to kill King Hussein broke the trust with Jordan and were banished to Lebanon…yet still Jordan respected Palestinians by retaining Jordanian citizenship until Yasar Arafat said that the PLO was the only true representative of the Palestinian people, and Jordan renounced citizenship for Palestinians and banished the PLO to Lebanon. Palestinians had a good thing at least in the West Bank until they threw it away by pushing away the Jordanian pledge of citizenship, and went full PLO…

 

[Weinie]

Although Jordan was arguably a regime when it supported Palestinians, particularly those in the West Bank, granting them Jordanian citizenship…up until Black September in 1970. That’s when the PLO’s attempt to kill King Hussein broke the trust with Jordan and were banished to Lebanon…yet still Jordan respected Palestinians by retaining Jordanian citizenship until Yasar Arafat said that the PLO was the only true representative of the Palestinian people, and Jordan renounced citizenship for Palestinians and banished the PLO to Lebanon. Palestinians had a good thing at least in the West Bank until they threw it away by pushing away the Jordanian pledge of citizenship, and went full PLO…and Hamas/Palestinian Islamic Jihad/Al Quds Brigade/Muslim Brotherhood/Iran.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Palestinians had a good thing at least in the West Bank until they threw it away by pushing away the Jordanian pledge of citizenship, and went full PLO…

At least they were peaceful once they got to Lebanon and didn't start another war.

 

[Good2Golf]

At least they were peaceful once they got to Lebanon and didn't start another war.

Spreading peace throughout the region…

And yet some still wonder why Palestinians aren’t wholeheartedly embraced by Islamic republics or Muslim governments in the region.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Well, it's because most Arab regimes are corrupt regimes that compete in pleasing the US and adopting its foreign policy in the region.

Bullsh!t. The corrupt regimes do as they please. The US isn't even influential enough to strong-arm a country like Saudi Arabia, which was arguably defended from Iraqi invasion by the US. The countries that won't take in Palestinians hold that position because they don't need one openly agitated faction setting off any of others. They are not models of political stability.