Harper says 'Islamicism' biggest threat to Canada

[Kalatzi]

Harper says 'Islamicism' biggest threat to Canada
Prime minister says Conservatives will bring back controversial anti-terrorism laws
Link here http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/09/06/harper-911-terrorism-islamic-interview.html

E.R. Campbell made reference to this in another post.

I respectfully submit the the imploding global economy is much bigger problem.

 

[brihard]

He's setting up to try to revive Bill C-17 form the last parliament, which is bloody bad law. More pandering to fear in ways that negatively impacts our freedoms. There's no demonstrable need for the provisions in question; traditional police and intelligence activities have thus far been extremely successful in protecting us from the rather vague threat of terrorism on our soil.

I'm not saying that terrorism presents no threat, but that we present at least as much threat to ourselves by suborning sound values and principles out of an amorphous fear. Destroying a few buildings or killing some people cannot in and of itself fundamentally alter the character of our society unless we allow it to.

 

[PuckChaser]

In Canada, I see our counterterrorist activities more to prevent their planning and easy passage from Canada to the USA. We're trying to stop them from planning stuff here and executing it in the US.

 

[Redeye]

Harper says 'Islamicism' biggest threat to Canada
Prime minister says Conservatives will bring back controversial anti-terrorism laws
Link here http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/09/06/harper-911-terrorism-islamic-interview.html

E.R. Campbell made reference to this in another post.

I respectfully submit the the imploding global economy is much bigger problem.

I agree. I'd put the economy, and also environmental issues up there too - religious extremism is nowhere near the top of the list. I think the general public seems to think so too, I think it may be a gaffe.

 

[Rifleman62]

I'd put the economy, and also environmental issues up there too - religious extremism is nowhere near the top of the list.

When Iran gets a bomb, and it goes off anywhere in Israel or the USA,  and it will, the economy will tank and the environment will be contaminated.

 

[canada94]

When Iran gets a bomb, and it goes off anywhere in Israel or the USA,  and it will, the economy will tank and the environment will be contaminated.

China has the bomb? The Soviets had the bomb? Why is it that now the "bomb" has so much more potential to be used?

I am not saying that a nuke is something to kid about, but the chances of Iran actually using it are slim to none. They are not stupid as you might believe. They know for a fact they would get wiped off the world map if they did.

I agree with the economy and spending more money then we have more of an issue as well.

 

[Redeye]

When Iran gets a bomb, and it goes off anywhere in Israel or the USA,  and it will, the economy will tank and the environment will be contaminated.

I'm remarkably unconcerned about that ever actually happening.

 

[a_majoor]

The reason no one is overly concerned with the nuclear capabilities of Russia, China (or France, for that matter) is these are relatively stable nation states run by a professional class of politicians and bureaucrats who have little to gain and everything to loose if nuclear weapons are used. Iran has not exactly demonstrated that to be the case, and their known use of non state actors like Hezbollah and Hamas as their military proxies implies that nuclear capabilities might not be under control of rational or accountable people.

WRT Islamicism, the greater threat is blocks of unassimilated people and groups in the body politic who largely ignore or reject "our" values. The Hell's Angels, Native Canadians, Quebec separatists, radical Greens and some Sikh congregations have demonstrated various levels of "rejection" past and present. If unassimilated groups actively oppose the values of a Liberal-Democratic state, then they are a true danger, and radical Islam has demonstrated an actively rejectionist stance.

 

[canada94]

: still does not change the fact Israel has 300 nukes. "Unstable", they have a lower homicide rate then we do? They may not be free, but calling Iran unstable to the point of losing control of its nuclear weapons is not plausible IMO.

 

[Brad Sallows]

If any of the nations that has nuclear weapons reports one "missing" and it subsequently "goes off", there will be no rational excuse for a punitive response - after all, it went "missing".  The recipient will have to grin and bear it.  Alternately, steps can be taken to prevent such an occurrence.

A fact which receives too little attention is that the more advanced technologically we become, the more vulnerable we are and the more grave a disruption can be.  Next time you're in a high-rise with no power (lights, elevator, refrigerator, stove, perhaps no water pressure) or a major traffic jam, imagine if the disruption were extended (days or weeks instead of minutes or hours).

That aside, the real point of vulnerability is confidence and faith (ie. things we take for granted), not physical infrastructure.

 

[Rifleman62]

Quote from: Rifleman62 on Yesterday at 18:43:31

    When Iran gets a bomb, and it goes off anywhere in Israel or the USA,  and it will, the economy will tank and the environment will be contaminated.

Redeye:

I'm remarkably unconcerned about that ever actually happening.

And why am I not surprised of your view of Utopia.

 

[Sythen]

they have a lower homicide rate then we do?

Homicide is illegal killing. I am willing to bet if you applied our laws to the majority of killing in that country you would see a totally different picture. They are unstable, and if you want to live under a rock, and ignore all the rhetoric and threats made by the Iranian regime then have fun. The rest of us don't want to keep our heads buried in the sand.

 

[lethalLemon]

Homicide is illegal killing. I am willing to bet if you applied our laws to the majority of killing in that country you would see a totally different picture. They are unstable, and if you want to live under a rock, and ignore all the rhetoric and threats made by the Iranian regime then have fun. The rest of us don't want to keep our heads buried in the sand.

Well said.

I don't believe these old and re-proposed laws are unnecessary or even harsh. 3 days sitting in a cell so that police can make sure that the 800 pounds of fertilizer you just bought for dirt cheap isn't being used to make bombs and you're not a threat to innocent people is well worth it. People have to keep in mind, ARRESTS do not go on your record and go against you, only OFFENSES IN WHICH YOU HAVE BEEN CONVICTED (charges of anywhere from assault, murder, to pissing in public haha) are placed on your record and go against you. After all, these laws are NOT just applied to those of Islam, they're applied to EVERYONE. Therefore not only are we protecting our nation against immigrants who for some reason want to hate our country and the way it's run because it's not like where they came from, but we're also protecting our nation against homegrown terror like the bombings and shootings that occurred in Norway - by Norwegians.

I've noticed that CBC gets more and more biased, yes Harper my say "Islamicism.. blah blah blah..." but is that really all he said? It could have just been one line, he could have said "Islamicism... blah blah blah... and along with... blah blah blah" but we will never know because CBC always wants to paint Harper as a horrible person and a criminal. It's disgusting.

Israel and a lot of those nations around there actually have Honour Killings as legal homicide. That's why it seems they have a lower homicide rate (although, I don't know much about how Israel runs so they may have more civilized laws, maybe, but... I might still be in line), but like Sythen said, if it were to occur here, (or even there) with or laws applied, the murder rate would sky rocket (or you can just go to Coquitlam which currently holds Canada's highest murder rate at 365% higher than the nation average).

However, I will conclude: I still think they should be more focused on the economy and healthcare etc. as previously stated - more prominent issues to the everyday Canadian, however, if this is what's on their mind at this time - can we really stop them?

 

[Redeye]

Iran's rhetoric is primarily for domestic consumption, in the style of most tyrannical strongmen, Ahmadinejad blusters on at length but the likelihood of them actually using nuclear weapons against Israel or anyone else is remarkably small, because he's smart enough to know the consequences. Is it potentially a problem or threat that bears some watching? Yes. Is it a significant threat to Canadians? No, not really. By and large, Canadians, and rightly so, are more concerned about the economy, about the environment, about our health care system and how it will react to aging boomers, etc, than it is (or should be) about Iran.

 

[Redeye]

Well said.

I don't believe these old and re-proposed laws are unnecessary or even harsh. 3 days sitting in a cell so that police can make sure that the 800 pounds of fertilizer you just bought for dirt cheap isn't being used to make bombs and you're not a threat to innocent people is well worth it. People have to keep in mind, ARRESTS do not go on your record and go against you, only OFFENSES IN WHICH YOU HAVE BEEN CONVICTED (charges of anywhere from assault, murder, to pissing in public haha) are placed on your record and go against you. After all, these laws are NOT just applied to those of Islam, they're applied to EVERYONE. Therefore not only are we protecting our nation against immigrants who for some reason want to hate our country and the way it's run because it's not like where they came from, but we're also protecting our nation against homegrown terror like the bombings and shootings that occurred in Norway - by Norwegians.

So you'll tolerate an attack on basic ideas of liberty? "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Frankin

The idea of starting to trample on basic individual liberties in response to a vague threat is something that should be a national conversation.  I bet sitting in jail sounds alright as long as it's not you.

I've noticed that CBC gets more and more biased, yes Harper my say "Islamicism.. blah blah blah..." but is that really all he said? It could have just been one line, he could have said "Islamicism... blah blah blah... and along with... blah blah blah" but we will never know because CBC always wants to paint Harper as a horrible person and a criminal. It's disgusting.

:facepalm:

More "OMG the CBC hates Harper" poutrage. As I understand it, it was a long, pretty continuous interview, not a bunch of cropped shots allowing for clever editing. Mr. Harper did also talk about other issues, but the statement about "Islamicism" stood out.

Israel and a lot of those nations around there actually have Honour Killings as legal homicide. That's why it seems they have a lower homicide rate (although, I don't know much about how Israel runs so they may have more civilized laws, maybe, but... I might still be in line), but like Sythen said, if it were to occur here, (or even there) with or laws applied, the murder rate would sky rocket (or you can just go to Coquitlam which currently holds Canada's highest murder rate at 365% higher than the nation average).

Can we shorten this paragraph to "I have no idea what I'm talking about" or delete it altogether? Since you admit you don't know about how Israel runs (or that "honor killings" aren't legal there and never have been), maybe it'd be better if you just stay in your lane. Israel, apart from its appalling treatment of its Palestinian "neighbours", is a pretty civilized, moden democracy with laws generally like you'd find in Western countries.

 

[Sythen]

Iran's rhetoric is primarily for domestic consumption

How willfully blind must people be? So UN speeches are for domestic consumption too? Every chance this guy gets he talks about destroying the USA and Israel in a wave of fire. People these days are so afraid of doing something beyond posting a facebook status that they are willing to let harm befall them and others.

Is it potentially a problem or threat that bears some watching? Yes. Is it a significant threat to Canadians? No, not really.

Wonder how many people said that when Al Qaeda declared war on the US back in the 90's? Yea just ignore the problem, it will go away.. Bin Laden is just giving rhetoric for domestic consumption, he's smart enough to know the USA would kill him if he did anything, right?

Unfortunately, people like you all you do is watch and wait.. Then when shit hits the fan, you will complain about how the CIA knew and did nothing, etc etc.. So tired of it...

 

[Sythen]

maybe it'd be better if you just stay in your lane. Israel, apart from its appalling treatment of its Palestinian "neighbours", is a pretty civilized, moden democracy with laws generally like you'd find in Western countries.

I think you should take your own advice. The fact Israel hasn't wiped out the Palestinian people is beyond restraint. I am not advocating them to do so or anything, but Palestinian people inside Israel have more rights then Palestinians inside Libya or Syria or Iran. Please do some fact checking. I know if my neighbor constantly attacked me, and everyone without any real insight said I was doing all sorts of horrible things to them, I would just start doing those things.

 

[Redeye]

How willfully blind must people be? So UN speeches are for domestic consumption too? Every chance this guy gets he talks about destroying the USA and Israel in a wave of fire. People these days are so afraid of doing something beyond posting a facebook status that they are willing to let harm befall them and others.

Yep. Understand that a tyrant must take steps to maintain his legitimacy against domestic enemies first and foremost. Look at any tyrant in history, and you'll see the same pattern. They pick an enemy they shape into an existential threat (the USA and Israel serve Iran's purposes well for this) and they bluster on and on about them - as in, "Look what I'm protecting you from."  As a state actor, he knows Iran cannot really do anything significant without receiving massive, decisive retaliation against the entire population. He can, however, fight proxy wars against Israel, which we all know he does by propping up Syria and arming Hezbollah, and will keep doing so at least until a two-state solution is settled there. I have my doubts that will solve much long term, though, sadly.

Wonder how many people said that when Al Qaeda declared war on the US back in the 90's? Yea just ignore the problem, it will go away.. Bin Laden is just giving rhetoric for domestic consumption, he's smart enough to know the USA would kill him if he did anything, right?

The problem posed by Al Qaeda is different. They're a non-state actor. They don't have territory that can be easily threatened like Iran does. They don't have cities that could basically be levelled by retaliatory strikes, making them a much more insidious enemy.

Unfortunately, people like you all you do is watch and wait.. Then when crap hits the fan, you will complain about how the CIA knew and did nothing, etc etc.. So tired of it...

Any more incorrect generalizations you wanted to throw out there? Go ahead!

 

[Redeye]

I think you should take your own advice. The fact Israel hasn't wiped out the Palestinian people is beyond restraint. I am not advocating them to do so or anything, but Palestinian people inside Israel have more rights then Palestinians inside Libya or Syria or Iran. Please do some fact checking. I know if my neighbor constantly attacked me, and everyone without any real insight said I was doing all sorts of horrible things to them, I would just start doing those things.

Palestinians inside Libya, or Syria, or Iran? What?!

What kills me about Israel is that they essentially turned the Gaza Strip and West Bank into giant prisons, keep the Palestianians from being able to exercise any sort of democratic rights (unless, of course, Israel approves), and have essentially strangled any hope for economic development in them. Until they stop doing that, and accept a two-state solution (which, incidentally, a good chunk of Israelis understand is the only way forward), they're not going to get peace.  And they're going to keep pissing off the world as they use things like collective punishment to deal with what happens as a result of the way they treat the Palestinians. Given the history which led to the creation of the State of Israel, arguably the most disastrous foreign policy decision in history, the irony of their use of such tactics is rich indeed. Fortunately, I think most people who live there are decent people, and I'm hoping that when Netanyahu is gone they might elect someone a little more reasonable and start actually working toward a solution.

 

[Sythen]

The problem posed by Al Qaeda is different. They're a non-state actor. They don't have territory that can be easily threatened like Iran does. They don't have cities that could basically be levelled by retaliatory strikes, making them a much more insidious enemy.

And in your diluted mind, when Iran finally does do something, you will come up with 100 ways to say the same thing.. oh it was different because blah blah blah.. Before 9/11, you would have been saying the same thing about a preemptive strike against Al Qaeda in Afghanistan. Its amazing the mental gymnastics some people can do all to preserve their notion of everything is good in the world, except Steven Harper. He is all that is bad, right? Him at that Tea Party...

So you'll tolerate an attack on basic ideas of liberty? "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Frankin

The idea of starting to trample on basic individual liberties in response to a vague threat is something that should be a national conversation.  I bet sitting in jail sounds alright as long as it's not you.

Forgot to reply to this little gem. If the world was only so simple to make your little fantasy a reality, I would grow long hair, smoke weed and sing kumbaya..  I love when people misuse this quote. Tell this quote to the victims in NY and Washington.. or Madrid or London.. Tell them that they died so that shady characters making shady purchases can avoid being questioned about it.