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Has anyone here completed FSA/HRA QL3s in the past year or so?

SeaKingTacco

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dangerboy said:
It happens in the regular force unit also. I have seen Infantry guys assigned to the Orderly room to assist the clerks, HRAs/FSAs. They might be just doing the easier tasks, photocopying, filing that sort of stuff leaving the qualified people to do the more important stuff. If they were not flexible then the troops admin would suffer and that is not acceptable.

I’ve seen aircrew assigned to the SOR to help with administration, when we were short of HRAs (which was almost always). 

It is the military- you do the job that needs doing.
 
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stellarpanther

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For years CFSU(O) employed ULO students to do things like PA thngs to Pers Files or but the Pers Files on the shelves etc.  I've never seen one doing any actual HRA/FSA work.  I do hear about that happening in Reserve unit.  My buddy told me about one unit who had a Sup Tech filling in and doing the work of an HRA/FSA.  Apparently there were a lot of mistakes made and a lot of claim recoveries which pissed off a lot of people.

The reason we still have MOSID's (trades) in the red is because people do what needs to be done including working though their lunch, breaks etc, some staying overtime, until they are noticed and told to go home.  One of the former CWO's of CFSU(O) once told the clerks to stop doing that because as bad as it is to say it, not getting the work done is the only the numbers will increase.  During the same meeting, he told the WO and Sgt's to stop volunteering to accept work and then giving it to the clerks to complete.  It was an interesting meeting. Some people posted to the NCR may notice that things can sometimes take a little while to get done.  That's because the troops have been told to stop breaking their backs, take their breaks etc which is how all units need to do things.

 

BeyondTheNow

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stellarpanther said:
For years CFSU(O) employed ULO students to do things like PA thngs to Pers Files or but the Pers Files on the shelves etc.  I've never seen one doing any actual HRA/FSA work.  I do hear about that happening in Reserve unit.  My buddy told me about one unit who had a Sup Tech filling in and doing the work of an HRA/FSA.  Apparently there were a lot of mistakes made and a lot of claim recoveries which pissed off a lot of people.

The reason we still have MOSID's (trades) in the red is because people do what needs to be done including working though their lunch, breaks etc, some staying overtime, until they are noticed and told to go home.  One of the former CWO's of CFSU(O) once told the clerks to stop doing that because as bad as it is to say it, not getting the work done is the only the numbers will increase.  During the same meeting, he told the WO and Sgt's to stop volunteering to accept work and then giving it to the clerks to complete.  It was an interesting meeting. Some people posted to the NCR may notice that things can sometimes take a little while to get done.  That's because the troops have been told to stop breaking their backs, take their breaks etc which is how all units need to do things.

Then that’s a quality-of-training/proper oversight issue. Several PRes and RegF units have pers working out of trade for any number of reasons at that time. (MELs, shortage, etc.) I have personal experience with this.

They need to be taught properly and for the first while, as inconvenient as it may be—yes, it can slow things down, but their work needs to be double-checked. Especially where OR tasks are concerned. Unfortunately, in some locations people just get thrown into things. Sometimes it’s unavoidable. But that being said, there’s also a bit of onus on the individual to be able to recognize when they’re unsure about something and to ask in order to save work later.

But yes. I’ve noted in some situations people will just moan and complain instead of addressing the matter directly before it gets out of hand. (ie there’s a pile of claims or something sitting on someone’s desk which need to be redone.)
 
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stellarpanther

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When I heard about the Sup Clerk working as an HRA/FSA and I'm saying both because he was apparently doing the work of both.  I should also mention that he had been in that position for almost 2 years as class B.  My question was why was the Class B position not posted so someone outside that unit could potentially apply for it.  I'm sure there are several qualified HRA/FSA's that are near the end of their careers and would gladly switch over to the Res for their last couple years.  We see people doing that all the time.

 

PuckChaser

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stellarpanther said:
When I heard about the Sup Clerk working as an HRA/FSA and I'm saying both because he was apparently doing the work of both.  I should also mention that he had been in that position for almost 2 years as class B.  My question was why was the Class B position not posted so someone outside that unit could potentially apply for it.  I'm sure there are several qualified HRA/FSA's that are near the end of their careers and would gladly switch over to the Res for their last couple years.  We see people doing that all the time.

Have you been around the PRes system a while? There's a lot of nepotism and shady stuff that goes into Permanent Cl B contracts...
 

dapaterson

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I'd suggest you review CMP Instruction 20/04 (former ADM HR Mil instruction 20/04, which replaced ADM Per instruction 2/93).  In fact, MOSID mismatch is one of the last resorts for filling full-time positions.

Simply put, the O&E of the Army reserve is not structured to generate the number of full-time FSA and HRA the organization wants, so the gaps are systemic.  Even the occasional Reg F member hopping across for a last few years does not mitigate the problem.  As well, the allocation of positions is disjointed, imbalanced, and insufficient; there are larger scopes of duty within a Res F unit than a Reg F unit.  Most tasks handled by the base / support unit in the Reg F are instead downloaded to the unit level in the Res F, resulting in wildly variable quality of work and frequent delays.  That, in turn, contributes to attrition.  In the NCR particularly, where NDHQ has money (but also in any location with large Reg F bases) full-time Reservists are happy to jump to less frantic positions where the scope of duties isn't enrolments Mondays, pay input Tuesdays, pers file maintenance Wednesdays, releases Thursdays, support to in house courses Friday, and repeat.

TL;DR Army Reserve admin is a hot mess.
 

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stellarpanther said:
When I heard about the Sup Clerk working as an HRA/FSA and I'm saying both because he was apparently doing the work of both.  I should also mention that he had been in that position for almost 2 years as class B.  My question was why was the Class B position not posted so someone outside that unit could potentially apply for it.  I'm sure there are several qualified HRA/FSA's that are near the end of their careers and would gladly switch over to the Res for their last couple years.  We see people doing that all the time.

Well, it’s still a quality-of-training/proper oversight issue.

I won’t speak to why a unit did/does what it did/does. I’m not working there and any opinion would be pure speculation. But where my unit is concerned, it’s tough to fill Cl Bs in the OR. We’ve had multiple positions posted over the last 4-5yrs and there wasn’t much interest—none in some cases. They’ve even tried to up the ante in a few instances, and still no bites for trade qualified pers of whatever rank required at the time. Some feel location within our Bgd is more than likely one of the main issues.
 
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stellarpanther

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PuckChaser said:
Have you been around the PRes system a while? There's a lot of nepotism and shady stuff that goes into Permanent Cl B contracts...

I know very little about the PRes system.  I did know a guy who was RSS at one of the units here for a while and he used to say he was shocked to see some of the stuff going on. All he would tell me is they don't always play by the rules and he once got in shit for reporting something.  He was able to get his posting cut short and returned to a Reg Force unit.


 

medicineman

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Good2Golf said:
The proper term to be used is MOSID.

Trade is an old term that was eliminated as it (and Occupation for officers) represented inappropriately the difference between NCM occupational capability requirements and those of officers.  It would be like someone calling an ACSO a Navigator, or an HRA or FSA a clerk...

And here I thought it was because the Badges and Buttons Brigade wanted to sound more 'Merican, to go with all the crap ego bling stuff they're putting on the combat uniforms.

I guess it was worth getting out of bed today  :nod:.

MM
 

ballz

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dangerboy said:
It happens in the regular force unit also. I have seen Infantry guys assigned to the Orderly room to assist the clerks, HRAs/FSAs. They might be just doing the easier tasks, photocopying, filing that sort of stuff leaving the qualified people to do the more important stuff.

We've had troopers, gunners, infanteers, and sappers this year completing and/or processing ITAs, booking travel in HRG, initiating claims, exercising Sect 32, etc. This is, of course, personal admin (except for Sect 32... that's a management task) and not an "FSA" task, but some think that *is* the "important stuff" that requires a special qualification, and that's a big issue.

We've also had one unit make the change to having the ITA completed by and submitted by the member and then approved by the appropriate authority before it ever comes to the FSA cell. The sky did not fall as many promised it would.

dangerboy said:
If they were not flexible then the troops admin would suffer and that is not acceptable.

SeaKingTacco said:
I’ve seen aircrew assigned to the SOR to help with administration, when we were short of HRAs (which was almost always). 

It is the military- you do the job that needs doing.

Yup. With the way we were pillaged for FSAs this year by CJOC, we'd never have been able to do it. However, the point stellarpanther makes is valid in that you shouldn't be using HRAs / FSAs to do the same work. Why would you try and fill holes in one red trade with people from another red trade? Using out-of-battle personnel makes sense, using an FSA to do HRA tasks just makes the problem worse.


Besides, let's not buy into our own BS that our initial MOSID training that gets someone to OFP is some irreplaceable thing. I'd take 3 months of OJT over 3 months at CFTLC on any day of the week. What FSAs should have over-and-above infanteers that should really matter is experience, but with such a young trade, where an MWO has only been an FSA for 4 years, the gap is not that large.
 
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