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Has the United States Lost the Ability to Fight a Major War?

daftandbarmy

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Has the United States Lost the Ability to Fight a
Major War?

http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pubs/parameters/Issues/Summer_2015/4_Metz.pdf
 
daftandbarmy said:
Has the United States Lost the Ability to Fight a
Major War?

http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pubs/parameters/Issues/Summer_2015/4_Metz.pdf

No.The only question is IF we have the political will to deploy combat forces.So far thankfully we have not shied away from do what we have done since WW2,that is to assist our allies in their time of need.
 
One part that I found interesting was this:

"The problem would not be recruits. There would be a
rush of those, at least at first. Training installations could be expanded
or built in relatively short order. The challenge would be equipping and
supplying the new units given the decline of the US defense industry and
its reliance on foreign materials and talent."


I think this has a particular relevance for a smaller military like Canada's and mirrors comments that have been made in many of the other threads.  From the structure and HQ bloat of the Regular Forces (why have Divisional HQs when we may not be able to sustain anything more than a Brigade Group in a high-intensity war) to the role and structure of the Reserves (augmentation vs. mobilization, train and equip to Reg Force standards or issue and train with cheaper Civ pattern equipment), shipbuilding strategy (a larger, "corvette navy" vs. a smaller, advanced navy) to the F-35/CAS threads (a small fleet of F-35s vs. a larger fleet of lower-tech aircraft).

It seems to raise a fundamental question that I don't think either the Canadian Government of Canadian Armed Forces have asked.  What would Canada do in the case of a major war once much of our "come as you are" equipment is lost?  Many key platforms either aren't made in Canada or are so complex that they will not be able to be replaced quickly enough to replace losses.  As the authors say in the article:

"That might force future military leaders to advise the president
they could build new units, squadrons, and organizations; but these
would be inferior to pre-war ones not only in training, leadership, and
experience, but also in equipment. Military leaders would then have
to decide whether pre-war doctrine and operational concepts could be
implemented by new, inferior formations, or whether they would need
simpler—and possibly less effective—doctrine the new forces could
follow."


I don't know the answer to this and it's likely that the answer for each CF capability may be different.  Simply asking these questions though could significantly change the government and military's approach to several things (organization, training, equipment, support and research for Canadian defence companies, etc.) and is I guess really central to the idea of a new Defence White Paper that many posters have stated previously is the first step that needs to be taken. 
 
It really depends on your definition of a "major war". In the event that you want to fight a 15 year quagmire along the pattern of Afghanistan, Iraq, Vietnam or Angola, then there should be plenty of time to gradually ramp up war production, raise taxes, take out loans, introduce conscription, refuse releases, and generally get ready for the long haul ahead. The US Army went from 900,000 in 1960 to 1.6 million soldiers in 1970. This is the model if you want to conduct a multi-decade counterinsurgency, and it can be sustained as long as you have the political war and money.

Now, if you want to do something shorter and sharper and more conventional; invade North Korea, push Russia out of Crimea, intervene on one side of a Pakistani coup -- something like that, then yes, you're going to run out of tanks and cruise missiles pretty quick. But so will the other guy. If nobody wins the war in the first 12 months or so, then you either go nuclear, or everybody starts digging in World War I style and it becomes a war of industry and blockade (like World War I and World War II were) -- whoever can effectively ramp up their war economy, wins.
 
Man, those equipment issues, just never go away, do they? reminds me a lot of the issues Canada and Australia had getting certain items in WWII. even something as simple as an SMG caused huge issues for the Aussies for a while till they had the Owen Gun.

As for the crux of the article, I think it's more the American People, westerners in general, than anything else.

You can get by with mediocre soldiers in training or the raw material and frankly a lot of military equipment that is cutting edge isn't a huge leap ahead of less advanced stuff, but without that will to win...I think history shows that this one factor; the drive to win, the willingness to do whatever it takes to achieve victory is possibly the most important value any nation can have.

Here in the west? We do not raise winners and anymore. We have a culture of soft-skinned, over-sensitive losers.

It used to be hundreds of years ago that most of the major European nations couldn't take a punch in the sense of raising and equipping an army; one bad battle and that was it; the war was lost right there. More major warfare came when losses became sustainable. Today, it's like we cannot take a punch culturally.
 
Shrek1985 said:
Man, those equipment issues, just never go away, do they? reminds me a lot of the issues Canada and Australia had getting certain items in WWII. even something as simple as an SMG caused huge issues for the Aussies for a while till they had the Owen Gun.

As for the crux of the article, I think it's more the American People, westerners in general, than anything else.

You can get by with mediocre soldiers in training or the raw material and frankly a lot of military equipment that is cutting edge isn't a huge leap ahead of less advanced stuff, but without that will to win...I think history shows that this one factor; the drive to win, the willingness to do whatever it takes to achieve victory is possibly the most important value any nation can have.

Here in the west? We do not raise winners and anymore. We have a culture of soft-skinned, over-sensitive losers.

It used to be hundreds of years ago that most of the major European nations couldn't take a punch in the sense of raising and equipping an army; one bad battle and that was it; the war was lost right there. More major warfare came when losses became sustainable. Today, it's like we cannot take a punch culturally.


I am not afraid of an army of lions led by a sheep; I am afraid of an army of sheep led by a lion.

Alexander the Great

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/a/alexander_the_great.html#pURHlLXFIIZWE1mp.99

 
An interesting debate going on in the US military on the future size and shape of their forces. This article looks at some alternative models by a maverick former US commander and a current commander. The argument as I understand it hinges on logistics, and while I am emotionally in favour of Macgregor's vision (especially stripping out the overhead and making units much more self sufficient and interacting in a "mesh"), I am also very aware of the arguments for logistics and sustainment. I suspect that the two constructs could be merged, with a much looser assembly of units coupled to a robust logistics train which resembles Amazon.com more than Wal Mart

This presentation outlines what McGregor is advocating: http://www.douglasmacgregor.com/LRSGBriefing.pdf

http://www.politico.eu/article/inside-the-pentagons-fight-over-russia-us-eastern-europe/

Inside the Pentagon’s fight over Russia
How the victors of one of America’s most celebrated battles are facing off on the future of the army.
By  MARK PERRY  11/4/15, 5:30 AM CET

For those villagers eagerly snapping pictures on the side of a road in the Czech Republic in late September, the appearance of the line of U.S. “Stryker” armored fighting vehicles must have seemed more like a parade than a large-scale military operation. The movement of some 500-plus soldiers of the 2nd Cavalry Regiment from Vilsack in Bavaria to a Hungarian military base was intended to strengthen U.S. ties with the Czech, Slovak and Hungarian militaries and put Russia’s Vladimir Putin on notice. Dubbed “Dragoon Crossing,” the tour traced a winding 846- kilometer tour that featured airdrops and simulated bridge seizures to show America’s Eastern European allies that the U.S. military could respond quickly to any threat. “We are demonstrating operational freedom of maneuver across Eastern Europe,” Col. John V. Meyer III told a reporter for the Army’s website, “and that is having the strategic effect of enabling our alliance, assuring our allies, and deterring the Russians.”

But not everyone is convinced. “This Stryker parade won’t fool anyone in Moscow,” says retired Army Colonel Douglas Macgregor. “The Russians don’t do many things well, but they have been subverting, destabilizing, invading and conquering their neighbors since Peter the Great. And what’s our response: a small unit of light armored trucks.”

Vladimir Putin has done more than make headlines with his aggressive military moves from Ukraine to Syria, along with displays of force on the high seas and in the air. The Russian leader has also escalated an intense debate inside the Pentagon over the appropriate response to the Kremlin’s new, not-so-friendly global profile — and over the future of the U.S. Army. And now the debate has spread to Capitol Hill: later this week the Senate Armed Services Committee will hold a hearing addressing the same issue.

Ironically, this Washington war of ideas has pitted against each other two brainy career Army officers who fought together in one of the most famous battles of modern times.

On one side is Macgregor, an outspoken and controversial advocate for reform of the Army — whose weapons he describes as “obsolescent,” its senior leaders as “self-interested,” and its spending as “wasteful.” Viewed by many of his colleagues as one of the most innovative Army officers of his generation, Macgregor, a West Point graduate with a Ph.D. in international relations (“he can be pretty gruff,” a fellow West Point graduate says, “but he’s brilliant”), led the 2nd Cav’s “Cougar Squadron” in the best-known battle of Operation Desert Storm in February 1991. In 23 minutes, Macgregor’s force destroyed an entire Iraqi Armored Brigade (including nearly 70 Iraqi armored vehicles), while suffering a single American casualty. Speaking at a military “lessons learned” conference one year later, Air Force General Jack Welsh described the Battle of 73 Easting (named for a map coordinate) as “a stunning, overwhelming victory.”

In the wake of the battle, however, Macgregor calculated that if his unit had fought a highly trained and better armed enemy, like the Russians, the outcome would have been different. So, four years later, he published a book called Breaking The Phalanx, recommending that his service “restructure itself into modularly organized, highly mobile, self-contained combined arms teams.” The advice received the endorsement of then-Army Chief of Staff Dennis Reimer, who ordered that copies of Macgregor’s book be provided to every Army general.

But Macgregor is still fighting that battle. In early September he circulated a PowerPoint presentation showing that in a head-to-head confrontation pitting the equivalent of a U.S. armored division against a likely Russian adversary, the U.S. division would be defeated. “Defeated isn’t the right word,” Macgregor told me last week. “The right word is annihilated.” The 21-slide presentation features four battle scenarios, all of them against a Russian adversary in the Baltics — what one currently serving war planner on the Joint Chiefs staff calls “the most likely warfighting scenario we will face outside of the Middle East.”

In two of the scenarios, where the U.S. deploys its current basic formation, called brigade combat teams (BCTs), the U.S. is defeated. In two other scenarios, where Macgregor deploys what he calls Reconnaissance Strike Groups, the U.S. wins. And that’s the crux of Macgregor’s argument: Today the U.S. Army is comprised of BCTs rather than Reconnaissance Strike Groups, or RSGs, which is Macgregor’s innovation. Macgregor’s RSG shears away what he describes as “the top-heavy Army command structure” that would come with any deployment in favor of units that generate more combat power. “Every time we deploy a division we deploy a division headquarters of 1,000 soldiers and officers,” Macgregor explains. “What a waste; those guys will be dead within 72 hours.” Macgregor’s RSG, what he calls “an alternative force design,” does away with this Army command echelon, reporting to a joint force commander — who might or might not be an Army officer. An RSG, Macgregor says, does not need the long supply tail that is required of Brigade Combat Teams — it can be sustained with what it carries from ten days to two weeks without having to be resupplied.

Macgregor’s views line him up against Lt. General H.R. McMaster, an officer widely thought of as one of the Army’s best thinkers. McMaster fought under Macgregor at “73 Easting,” where he commanded Eagle Troop in Macgregor’s Cougar Squadron. McMaster, however, had more success in the Army than Macgregor, is a celebrated author (ofDereliction of Duty, a classic in military history), and is credited with seeding the Anbar Awakening during the Iraq War. Even so, McMaster was twice passed over for higher command until David Petraeus, who headed his promotion board, insisted his success be recognized. McMaster is now a lieutenant general and commands the high-profile Army Capabilities Integration Center (called “ARCINC”), whose mandate is to “design the Army of the future.” David Barno, a retired Lt. General who headed up the US command in Afghanistan, describes McMaster as an officer “who has repeatedly bucked the system and survived to join its senior ranks.”

For many, McMaster is as controversial as Macgregor, with comments about him spanning the spectrum from condemnation to praise. “H.R. is an excellent officer and a good friend,” a senior JCS officer says, “but you don’t get to three stars by being an outsider, and you don’t get to head ARCINC by bucking the system.” Retired Brigadier General Kimmitt waves away claims that McMaster has traded his ideals for promotion (“clichéd nonsense,” he says) and describes McMaster as “a giant in a land of midgets. He’s the one true intellectual in the Army’s corporate culture. He’s smarter than almost any of them.”

In effect, the debate between Macgregor and McMaster is a battle over whether the Army’s BCT structure is capable of matching up against what Army thinkers call a “near peer” competitor, like Russia. Though it may sound to outsiders like a disagreement over crossed t’s and dotted i’s, the dispute is fundamental–focusing on whether, in a future conflict, the U.S. military can actually win. Even inside the Pentagon, that is very much in doubt. A recent article by defense writer Julia Ioffe reported the “dispiriting” results of a Pentagon “thought exercise” between a red team (Russia) and a blue team, NATO. The “table top” exercise stipulated a Russian invasion of the Baltics, the same scenario proposed by Macgregor. “After eight hours of gaming out various scenarios,” Ioffe wrote, a blue team member concluded that NATO “would lose.”

* * *

The military is taking Macgregor’s challenge seriously, in part because the retired colonel has spurred interest in his reform ideas from one of the most important players in the defense community, Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman John McCain. McCain was said to be impressed after Macgregor and Admiral Mark Fitzgerald briefed him on the new force design last January 17, telling his staff to set up briefings for Macgregor with other senators. Then, in September, after Macgregor’s simulations were completed, he briefed senior Senate Armed Services staffers, arguing that replacing BCTs with RSGs would make Army formations more lethal and eliminate the budget redundancies in the current system, with potential savings of tens of billions of dollars.

“Macgregor scares the hell out of the Army,” says a senior Joint Chiefs war planner. “What he has proposed is nothing less than the dismantling of the Big Green Machine, getting the Army to embrace a future of lighter, more agile forces than the big lumbering behemoth which takes forever to spool up and deploy. I’ll bet the armor and airborne guys are furious. Reform my ***: Macgregor has walked into the zoo and slapped the gorilla.”

Indeed, one of the pitfalls of Macgregor’s Army career was that he slapped a few too many gorillas along the way. He has long been known for his ability to alienate senior officers, not least because he suggested they spent their time sucking up to their superiors, instead of figuring out how to wage war.

In January of 2001, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld insisted that U.S. Central Command General Tommy Franks and his Iraq war planning staff meet with Macgregor, who argued that the U.S. should scale back its Iraq fighting force, racing to Baghdad with a mobile blitz using just 50,000 troops. Franks, and senior Army leaders, rejected Macgregor’s advice, resented his intervention (one commander walked out of the room in disgust, while Macgregor was talking) and after the end of the war, sidelined him in a series of meaningless staff jobs. After being passed over for promotion, Macgregor retired in 2004. Despite this, he retains his outsized influence in Army circles, where his ideas are circulated–and quietly supported. “Doug Macgregor is a pain in the ***,” retired Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt notes, “but that doesn’t make him wrong. Serious people take him seriously.”

In his campaign for reform, Macgregor has recruited a number of high-profile retired military officers to what is known in the military as “the Macgregor Transformation Model.” Macgregor and his supporters presented his model to a packed house on Capitol Hill in November of 2013 and the next year, in these pages, he compared the Army to a nine passenger rowboat–where “four would steer, three would call cadence and two would man the oars.”

Who is right in the great debate? Macgregor was reluctant to provide detailed, proprietary information on how his warfighting scenarios were actually designed, but he agreed to allow me to talk to one of his key simulators, who confirmed that Macgregor’s team comprised officers from every service, who spent months designing the simulation and reviewing the data. “The design of the RSG took eight years,” this former senior military commander told me, “but the actual simulation, based on highly complex mathematical models that are used by the military, started in June and ran for seven weeks. Getting the data right was hell on earth. What we did had to be empirical, provable, convincing.”

Some skeptics suggest that the Macgregor-McMaster debate is less about the Army’s structure than its budget, which has been pared down by sequestration and is therefore being more fiercely fought over. “The Russians have made improvements in their military, but in my opinion the Army exaggerates their capabilities. Hell, they can’t even get their draftees to show up,” says David Majumdar, a defense analyst and Russian military expert at the Center for the National Interest. “The bottom line here is that increasing the Russian threat is a good strategy to increase the Army budget. This isn’t about fighting the Russians, this is about fighting the Congress. This is about getting past sequestration.”

Retired Army Colonel David Johnson, a regular adviser to the military at the Rand Corp., disputes this and says the debate on Army capabilities is as much about weapons as anything else. “We might or might not be fighting the Russians,” he says, “but we’re almost certainly going to be fighting Russian weapons.” On the day that I spoke with him about the Macgregor-McMaster debate, in mid-September, Johnson had just returned from briefing McMaster and his team about the issue, concluding that the U.S. has “important capability gaps” that “put our ground forces and future strategies at high risk.” For Johnson, “fighting their weapons” means countering not just military formations, but sophisticated air defenses, ballistic missiles, and special operations forces” — things the Russians are good at. “It’s a new battlefield,” he concludes, “in which nothing survives that flies under 25,000 feet.”

McMaster also says the debate “has nothing to do with trying to break sequestration,” Instead, he told me during a wide ranging telephone interview, “it has to do with carrying out the mission that we have. … The real question here is not about the budget, it’s about the strength and capabilities of our forces. We have to be prepared for every contingency.” And that includes fighting on for far longer than Macgregor thinks might be necessary, as happened in Iraq and Afghanistan. For McMaster, the current Army structure is the best way to do that. “We’re not going to abandon the Brigade Combat Team,” he says. “It’s a building block and it’s a good one. It works.”

Even so, McMaster dismisses suggestions that he is embroiled in a face-off with his former commander. “I think Doug and I are in much closer agreement than you think,” he argues. “He says that the Army needs a greater concentration of lethality and mobility. I agree. He says our formations need greater access to joint capabilities. I agree. He says ‘cut the overhead,’ and I agree with that too. What I want and what Doug wants is a greater integration of lethality at lower levels, at the battalion level for instance, and much better and more robust ISR [intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance] capabilities. That said, I think there is probably one place where we diverge. Doug underestimates our sustainability requirements — and that’s key.”

For McMaster, the question isn’t simply whether the U.S. (and the Army) can fight and win (he believes it can); it’s whether having won it’s possible to manage the victory; in Colin Powell’s phrase, to “own the china” once it’s been broken. Macgregor says his RSGs are self- contained and can fight and win without resupply for seven days to two weeks. McMaster scoffs at this, saying it might take a lot longer and the Army is not simply asked to deploy, fight and win, but to then manage the post-conflict environment and “prepare for every contingency.” And that, in turn, takes a lot more troops. Macgregor’s response? If you focus on fighting and winning instead of nation building you won’t need 630,000 troops.

This is precisely the problem that has dogged the U.S. military in Afghanistan and Iraq, where insufficient forces were required to endure multiple deployments. More simply, the U.S. military proved it could defeat Saddam’s vastly superior numbers with just 148,000 U.S. troops — but running the country after Saddam’s defeat strained American resources, led to multiple unit deployments and resulted in the adoption of a last-gasp surge.

An Army that cannot be sustained dampens recruiting, erodes readiness, undermines officer retention and increases desertions. Put another way, McMaster implies, an Army of 420,000 (a number that slashing the Army budget will yield), can fight and win a war — but, as in Afghanistan and Iraq, it’s not enough to maintain the peace.

“People think of the Army as simply a combat force, but if Afghanistan and Iraq have shown anything it’s that after you have conquered the space you still have to manage it,” McMaster argues. “I want to make it clear here: we will operate within the budget. The Army has always made do with what the Congress believes is appropriate–and we’ll do that now. But the American people must understand that we are being asked to shape political outcomes, and that requires resources. It’s not just a matter of building combat capable units, you have to supplement those units and train those units to provide governance. Korea is a good example of this. I know it’s sixty years ago, but it’s still a good model. We protected South Korea, but then we had to stay there and provide stability so that the Koreans could build that society. And it worked, we were successful — they’re now one of the great economic success stories in the world. And it wasn’t just staving off the North Koreans that did that.”

Macgregor responds by pointing out that ultimate victory is not a matter of size. “The problem with the U.S. Army is much bigger than numbers,” he says. “It’s not organized, equipped, or trained for a high end, conventional, integrated joint battle with a numerically and at least in some ways qualitatively superior enemy on the enemy’s chosen turf. In the simulation, it’s Russia. But it could just as easily be China. Even if you increased the Army to 600,000 in its current form … it would still fail. That’s the problem and, by the way, the Army knows it.”

McMaster disagrees. “We’ve built an Army that knows how to fight and win,” he says, “and it’s proven that. Can we get better? Sure, we can get better. And we’re working to get better every day. But our military has been successful in protecting this country, in deterring aggression. But for deterrence to be effective you need a brute force option. That’s what the Army is — our brute force option. It’s a pretty good one.”

R. Jordan Prescott, a defense analyst who has followed the debate over the Army for the last decade, admits that the change that Macgregor and his supporters propose will be hard to enact. But he points out two factors may change that equation. “The defense establishment is facing serious budget constraints, and that’s not going to change,” he says. “Which means the Army will have to make do with a lot less. But why wouldn’t you do both? Why not spend less and get stronger. But more crucially, all of Washington is now getting caught up in this debate. There are at least a dozen commissions and study groups focusing on this.”

Which is to say that the simmering debate over the future of the Army will not be left to the generals to decide. One hopes, too, that it will not be left to Vladimir Putin to decide either.

Mark Perry’s book on William Oates and Joshua Chamberlain, Conceived In Liberty, was published in 1997.
 
Interesting read and a walk down memory lane.Between the two sides I side with LTG McMaster.Taking a line from Master and Commander,"In the service we take the lesser of two weavils". :camo:
 
Good read.  The link to the Baltic defence scenario presentation that Macgregor presented is at the link below:

http://www.douglasmacgregor.com/RSGSASCBRIEFFINALshow.ppsx

There is some interesting data slides in a supplementary slideshow here:

http://www.douglasmacgregor.com/backupslideshow.ppsx

The only problem I have is the BCT scenarios feature an area defence of the Lithuanian border while the RSG scenarios feature a mobile defence in depth.  For the modelling to be a true comparison, both formations should have been put through the same scenario criteria.

I've followed with interest both McMaster and Macgregor for almost two decades.  The funny thing is that the BCT concept is, I believe, largely derived from Macgregor's book Breaking the Phalanx - I believe that's where intellectual impetus came from.  What's also amusing is that, desipte his comments on 2 Cav Stryker's vehicles, Macgregor's Breaking the Phalanx proposed a Stryker based formation termed the "Light Reconnaissance Strike Group" as one of the four key formations (the others were an Airborne Group, a Heavy Recon Group, and an Armoured Group) to transforming the Army.  His follow on book altered the concept and dropped the Stryker, and his new Light Reconnaissance Strike Group detailed in the above PPT is an evolution from this.

Finally, the one thing that Macgregor has targeted since his book was the command structure overhead of these BCTs or RSG.  He's argued that there are too many echelons above Brigade (or Group) and too many HQs and staffers.  This is an argument I still support.  In one of his best presentations, Macgregor points out how over 4 million servicemen in the Pacific during the Second World War were commanded by few General/Flag Officers than what currently sit in a single U.S. Command these days.  One of the most astounding things is a U.S. formation HQs - it is a massive body with its own internal working dynamics, not all (many?) actively engaged in actually producing value.
 
For a major war the basic formation should be the division as it is structured to move,fight and sustain itself.For the COIN a brigade structure would be suitable.I thnk back to Vitenam where many brigade HQ's had 5 manuever battalions,an artillery battalion with up to 5 batteries and a support battalion for sustainment.This worked in most scenarios as the enemy lacked artillery and had no air support.As currently structured the US Army is much better able to conduct full spectrum operations compared to many of our allies.In this mythical war is the US fighting alone or with allies ? We do have the ability to add 8 NG divisions to the mix,with many of its personnel combat veterans.

A war with Russia just isnt going to happen,because at some point the nuclear genie will emerge.For the same reason a shooting war with China isnt going to happen,because war means the use of nuclear weapons,unless we decide to fight with one hand tied behind our backs.Going forward islamic jihadists are our greates threat both in the middle east and at home.
 
T6

Back in the fifties both our armies tried removing a level of command, and the Brits tried it very briefly in the mid-seventies. The US Army (and later the Brits) tried removing the brigade headquarters while our concept saw the division headquarters canned. Neither really worked all that well, and we found our brigade group in BAOR was grouped as part of a British division. 

I lean towards your assessment as stated in your first two sentences.
 
Re reading the presentations it strikes me that this is a very kinetic/heavy metal construct, which is great for crashing through the Fulda Gap or the 73 Easting, but might have less utility in scenarios like 1990 era Bosnia or dealing with the "Little Green Men" in Crimea. As a tool in the toolbag, something along these lines might be very useful for the upper level of the spectrum of conflict, and I suppose you can dismount a lot of the "artillery" (AMOS and long range strike weapons) in a Low Intensity Conflict where having boots on the ground is more important than fire.

I also wonder how well this construct will translate if you do not have the tools being advocated. Conceptually,there is a lot of logistical streamlining by using a single family of vehicles, but it is difficult to imagine us doing something like this. Can it work with a heterogeneous fleet? How many of the capabilities being advocated can be left behind due to budget constraints before the idea no longer works? Still an interesting jumping off point...
 
All the bells and whistles are critical to success,but to me there is no substitute for the infantryman.The last time the US Army fiddled with TOE we saw smaller squads in exchange for more lethality,or so the argument.Smaller squads so as to fit into one combat vehicle.I can buy into that,but the light forces should have 11 man squads.In fact I like the USMC squad/platoon/company composition.
 
My  :2c: ...

No one, not America, not China, not Russia is, in any way, ready to fight a big war à la 1939-45. Back, circa 1955 President Eisenhower assigned the big war military to the scrap heap and, despite all the moaning and whinging from the Pentagon, no president has seen fit to try to resurrect it. Ike decided to bluff ... he was a famously good poker player and he seems to have decided that he could bluff the Russians with the threat of cheap nuclear weapons, rather than buying and sustaining large, expensive conventional forces ... it worked. It worked so well, in fact, that the Russians destroyed themselves trying to build a big enough, useful enough conventional force able to meet and survive allied tactical (and strategic) nuclear weapons (that was their problem, the Russian Army was HUGE, just not big enough, but, big as it was it was also bloody useless ... and expensive). Americans got washing machines and TV sets and two cars and suburbs and, and, and ... and the Russians got more and more tanks and guns until, finally, the entire Russian enterprise toppled , pulled down by the deadweight of communistic stupidity.

The Chinese built a HUGE army, too ... as a counter to a very real Russian threat, but they understood that it was folly and the PLA is now a mere (but much more effective) fraction of its former size.

The Russians are ... well, they're Russians and they will waste every resource they have, starting (probably ending, too) with people, without gaining much except heartache.

-----

The "delayering" concept (getting rid of the divisions and having a corps of, say, 10 to 15 brigade groups) in the UK, anyway, was based on the notion of the nuclear battlefield.

Conventional tactics of the defence looked like this ...

             
Brick-wall-010.jpg


  ... but the Brits reckoned that, on the new, nuclear battlefield, tactics needed to look like this ...

             
brick-wall-okc.JPG


The notion was that we could 'canalize' the Warsaw Pact forces by allowing them to pass around our (brigade) bricks and, sooner or later, force them into nuclear killing zones where we could hit them very, very hard, indeed. It was, rather, reminiscent of this ...

             
wmr_aph_n070509_large.jpg


    ... with the French cavalry wandering about, aimlessly and ineffectively, between the (impregnable) British squares. That was the theory, anyway.

The flaw was that the span of control, especially of service support/logistics, was just too much for a corps HQ, no matter how big (and no matter how good the signal systems might have become) to manage.

A combat brigade, with organic 2nd line service support (logistics) and signals remains a good idea, but ...

    1. Artillery, reconnaissance, aviation, EW and some engineers should be grouped and allocated where and when needed because of their inherent flexibility;

    2. 3d line logistic support needs to be 'overlayed' by HQs above the (reasonably) self contained brigades.

-----

The key tools for asymmetrical warfare are infantry, infantry and yet more infantry, and some special forces, and then more infantry, and intelligence gatherers (of various sorts) followed by even more infantry, lots of aviation and lots and lots and lots of service support.

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If there's a war with China, which need not happen, it will be inconclusive ~ our friend Thucydides can explain, again, why elephants and whales (or tigers and sharks) don't fight.

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Edit: grammar (capitalization)   :-[
 
With enough of the right artillery we can do anything, as has been proven again and again.

Too bad we seem fixated on tanks and other fast moving 'direct contact' widgets.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
My  :2c: ...

No one, not America, not China, not Russia is, in any way, ready to fight a big war à la 1939-45. Back, circa 1955 President Eisenhower assigned the big war military to the scrap heap and, despite all the moaning and whinging from the Pentagon, no president has seen fit to try to resurrect it. Ike decided to bluff ... he was a famously good poker player and he seems to have decided that he could bluff the Russians with the threat of cheap nuclear weapons, rather than buying and sustaining large, expensive conventional forces ... it worked. It worked so well, in fact, that the Russians destroyed themselves trying to build a big enough, useful enough conventional force able to meet and survive allied tactical (and strategic) nuclear weapons (that was their problem, the Russian Army was HUGE, just not big enough, but, big as it was it was also bloody useless ... and expensive). Americans got washing machines and TV sets and two cars and suburbs and, and, and ... and the Russians got more and more tanks and guns until, finally, the entire Russian enterprise toppled , pulled down by the deadweight of communistic stupidity.

The Chinese built a HUGE army, too ... as a counter to a very real Russian threat, but they understood that it was folly and the PLA is now a mere (but much more effective) fraction of its former size.

The Russians are ... well, they're Russians and they will waste every resource they have, starting (probably ending, too) with people, without gaining much except heartache.

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The "delayering" concept (getting rid of the divisions and having a corps of, say, 10 to 15 brigade groups) in the UK, anyway, was based on the notion of the nuclear battlefield.

Conventional tactics of the defence looked like this ...

             
Brick-wall-010.jpg


  ... but the brits reckoned that, on the new, nuclear battlefield, tactics needed to look like this ...

             
brick-wall-okc.JPG


The notion was that we could 'canalize' the Warsaw Pact forces by allowing them to pass around our (brigade) bricks and, sooner or later, force them into nuclear killing zones where we could hit them very, very hard, indeed. It was, rather, reminiscent of this ...

             
wmr_aph_n070509_large.jpg


    ... with the French cavalry wandering about, aimlessly and ineffectively, between the (impregnable) British squares. That was the theory, anyway.

The flaw was that the span of control, especially of service support/logistics, was just too much for a corps HQ, no matter how big (and no matter how good the signal systems might have become) to manage.

A combat brigade, with organic 2nd line service support (logistics) and signals remains a good idea, but ...

    1. Artillery, reconnaissance, aviation, EW and some engineers should be grouped and allocated where and when needed because of their inherent flexibility;

    2. 3d line logistic support needs to be 'overlayed' by HQs above the (reasonably) self contained brigades.

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The key tools for asymmetrical warfare are infantry, infantry and yet more infantry, and some special forces, and then more infantry, and intelligence gatherers (of various sorts) followed by even more infantry, lots of aviation and lots and lots and lots of service support.

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If there's a war with China, which need not happen, it will be inconclusive ~ our friend Thucydides can explain, again, why elephants and whales (or tigers and sharks) don't fight.

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Lions and tigers and bears, oh my! (I'm sure the usual comparison about the US vs China is that dragons and whales are eminent in their own domains, and have no way to get attach other...)

I fully agree that infantry and more infantry is the key to everything outside of the 73rd Easting type of clash, and (to tie in another thread) this is probably where a robust reserve capability comes into play: we can have BCT's or RST's to flatten the enemy, but while that is goig on, Reservists are being called to the colours and undergoing workup training to fill in the spaces left by the advancing "heavy metal" forces. These forces could be essentially motorized on an updated version of the Bison, being a relatively roomy vehicle which can be repurposed for lots of roles "on the fly" as the troops adapt to whatever twists the locals throw at them (if the locals decide to play too far outside the rules, the Heavy Metal forces can always come back and show them the error of their ways).

I also think you have identified where the "real" revolution in military affairs (RMA) will come from: creating the logistical and Command and Control infrastructure and protocols that make distributed operations a reality. To date, I don't think we are close to achieving this outside of relatively permissive environments (no enemy air or ECM, for example), and with current technology this might only be possible if every AFV and logistics vehicle was kitted out like an F-35. Clearly some more breakthroughs are going to be needed....
 
Question.  If nobody's prepared to fight a "big war" between the major powers due to the threat of nuclear weapons, then should we even try to invest the money in the kind of military to fight that war?  I'm not suggesting that we abandon major combat capability and relegate ourselves to the peacekeeper myth, but would our military look different if we were organized and equipped to fight a Russian or Chinese ARMED military rather than the Russians and Chinese themselves? 


 
GR66 said:
Question.  If nobody's prepared to fight a "big war" between the major powers due to the threat of nuclear weapons, then should we even try to invest the money in the kind of military to fight that war?  I'm not suggesting that we abandon major combat capability and relegate ourselves to the peacekeeper myth, but would our military look different if we were organized and equipped to fight a Russian or Chinese ARMED military rather than the Russians and Chinese themselves?


I am about 99% certain that question ~ and it is a crucial one ~ is asked, in the 'corridors of power' in Ottawa (Privy Council Office, Department of Finance, Treasury Board and Prime Minister's Office) an an annual basis. My guess is that opinion is divided but so evenly as to make meaningful change from the status quo unlikely. In fairness, similar questions were asked in the 1920s and '30s and we, the UK led allies, started the Second World war with armies that looked very much like the ones that finished the First World war ... and we needed something rather different. The Cold War army ~ which was combat ready and capable, at least until about 1970 ~ looked a lot different than the Korean War army, but that was because ...

   
brick-wall-okc.JPG
 
Brick-wall-010.jpg

                                                  ... this                                                                replaced                                              this in our thinking.
 
GR66 said:
Question.  If nobody's prepared to fight a "big war" between the major powers due to the threat of nuclear weapons, then should we even try to invest the money in the kind of military to fight that war?  I'm not suggesting that we abandon major combat capability and relegate ourselves to the peacekeeper myth, but would our military look different if we were organized and equipped to fight a Russian or Chinese ARMED military rather than the Russians and Chinese themselves?

I would personally like to see us shift a significant amount of manpower away from the Army and reinvest in the Navy, Air Force and Special Operations Forces. 

I'd also like a massive reduction in the size of our C2 and administrative overhead. 

We are for all intents and purposes, on an island.  Our defence policy should follow the British model of the 18th and 19th centuries.  Small but highly professional army that can be used to fight brush fire wars in the Colonies, with a powerful Navy and Air Force to protect our shores and also project our power. 

 
Humphrey Bogart said:
I would personally like to see us shift a significant amount of manpower away from the Army and reinvest in the Navy, Air Force and Special Operations Forces. 

I'd also like a massive reduction in the size of our C2 and administrative overhead. 

We are for all intents and purposes, on an island.  Our defence policy should follow the British model of the 18th and 19th centuries.  Small but highly professional army that can be used to fight brush fire wars in the Colonies, with a powerful Navy and Air Force to protect our shores and also project our power.

I assume you are talking about the Canadian Forces,because the services you mentioned receive the lions share of the defense budget because lets face it ships and air planes are expensive compared to tanks,infantry ect.The link below are the personnel targets for the US military.Defense spending is $496b.

DoDbudget-table3.png


2015 budget:

DoDbudget-fig3.png
 
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