Hazard Allowance

[Kat Stevens]

I'm sorry, what was your user name again?  I couldn't hear it over the wind whistling around your enormous head.... :

All ya gots to do is a positive action on an IED and get paid.  I know of Ammo Techs that all they have to do is load a neutrex, and get paid, and thats all they do....WTF?


Nemesis the way I read the thread its about danger pay for trades, as a AMMO TECH I work with Ammunition and explosives every day not just days that I do EOD work, Every day I inspect ammunition and explosives more offen than not it is returned by user units in a dangerous state i.e arty rounds with fuse's set,loose primers in propellent containers Engineer units returning dets rolling around in the det containers because they throw out the Styrofoam, engineer units returning trip flares with the safety's removed and wire wrapped around the flare. I could go on with the unsafe way ammunition and explosives are returned by units.   

Could you please give me one or two names of Ammo Techs that just load a neutrex and get paid. As I know all 143 techs in my trade I would like to know who has the big swan of just loading the neutrex.

PS do you know the diff between GOD and a Field ENG, GOD doesn't go around saying he is a FIELD  ENGINEER

 

[Spr.Earl]

I'm sorry, what was your user name again?  I couldn't hear it over the wind whistling around your enormous head.... :

I think it's Eccles.

 

[NL_engineer]

Re Slesse Creek accident.

Slesse Demolition Range Accident. A plaque to the memory of the casualties of the June 1988

demolition accident at the CFB Chilliwack Slesse Range is displayed inside the main entrance to the Canadian

Forces School of Military Engineering (which is now an RCMP and local Police Training Center).

The memorial plaque is inscribed: “In memory of  Captain J.W. Best,

Lieutenant M.D. Aucoin, .Second Lieutenant K.J. Wilkinson, Officer Cadet K.R. Gawne, Officer Cadet W.C. Sutton, Officer

Cadet W.J. Whitley; killed in a demolitions training accident at Slesse Range 20 June 1988.”

I was on my Militia 6A course and we were bumpted to give way for the Officer Cadet's and from 6Fd we had Christopher Robin ,I can't remember his real name but that was his nick name he was there and did not stay in the Militia long after that.

That plaque is now posted in the front doors of CFSME in Gagetown, and the report is floating around the school somewere.

 

[043]

All ya gots to do is a positive action on an IED and get paid.  I know of Ammo Techs that all they have to do is load a neutrex, and get paid, and thats all they do....WTF?


Nemesis the way I read the thread its about danger pay for trades, as a AMMO TECH I work with Ammunition and explosives every day not just days that I do EOD work, Every day I inspect ammunition and explosives more offen than not it is returned by user units in a dangerous state i.e arty rounds with fuse's set,loose primers in propellent containers Engineer units returning dets rolling around in the det containers because they throw out the Styrofoam, engineer units returning trip flares with the safety's removed and wire wrapped around the flare. I could go on with the unsafe way ammunition and explosives are returned by units.   

Could you please give me one or two names of Ammo Techs that just load a neutrex and get paid. As I know all 143 techs in my trade I would like to know who has the big swan of just loading the neutrex.

PS do you know the diff between GOD and a Field ENG, GOD doesn't go around saying he is a FIELD  ENGINEER

Do you know the difference between Ammo Tech's and Combat Engineers????? I know all the Combat Engineers do.

I bet them shipping containers are in horrible condition!!!!!

 

[Spr.Earl]

F.E.'s and powder monkeys (no offence) have had this argument for yonks!

Back on Topic any F.E. with all his EOD/IED ticket punch's should get Spec.pay as diver's and jumper's do plus what ever bonus's given on any Op..

 

[aesop081]

F.E.'s and powder monkeys (no offence) have had this argument for yonks!

Back on Topic any F.E. with all his EOD/IED ticket punch's should get Spec.pay as diver's and jumper's do plus what ever bonus's given on any Op..

Jumpers do NOT get spec pay.........spec pay is NOT an allowance.....but a different pay group for certain MOCs.....there is not such thing as "spec pay" per say.

 

[Spr.Earl]

Yes true but many see it that way.

 

[kj_gully]

Back on Topic any F.E. with all his EOD/IED ticket punch's should get Spec.pay as diver's and jumper's do plus what ever bonus's given on any Op..[/quote]

OK. I think see what you are saying, I think you are saying the same thing, just in a different language. Let me see if I am reading you. You think that EOD personnel should receive extra money every month, regardless of whether or not they actually did explosive disposal duties, instead of the current practice of only paying these personnel each time they perform EOD duties, and only when certain duties are performed.
I agree with that fully. That would be a hazardous duty allowance, which is extra cash, but different from "spec Pay" My only caveat would be that each Regiment would have a certain # of positions, just like Divers, who would be the designated EOD/IED det.and would receive the money monthly, and anyone else would get casual pay, just like it is now.

there is not such thing as "spec pay" per say.

  I scratched my head @ this one, but looked it up, and it is oficially called an "incentive pay field", with specialist 1, and specialist 2 distinctions. This is different form an allowance, in that it is a component of your pay, and counts toward your pension.

 

[Spr.Earl]

Back on Topic any F.E. with all his EOD/IED ticket punch's should get Spec.pay as diver's and jumper's do plus what ever bonus's given on any Op..

OK. I think see what you are saying, I think you are saying the same thing, just in a different language. Let me see if I am reading you. You think that EOD personnel should receive extra money every month, regardless of whether or not they actually did explosive disposal duties, instead of the current practice of only paying these personnel each time they perform EOD duties, and only when certain duties are performed.
I agree with that fully. That would be a hazardous duty allowance, which is extra cash, but different from "spec Pay" My only caveat would be that each Regiment would have a certain # of positions, just like Divers, who would be the designated EOD/IED det.and would receive the money monthly, and anyone else would get casual pay, just like it is now.
 

Yup that is was I meant but at the moment we nead so many EOD/IED qualified and right now they are getting burnt out so #'s per Reg. does not even come into the equation.

 

[Nemesis]

I could give you 3 AmmoTechs names, one of them is at the "EOD" school.  Starts with "M", sounds like go......Ya, you know who I'm talking about.  I'm just telling ya what they told me.  So take it or leave it.  I don't know why you sound so bitter for.  Oh....wait....I know....you have never seen or touched a REAL IED in your life.  But you are the EOD/IEDD gods.  I forgot.  Sorry.  My bad.  Get over it.

I don't think I have ever heard of an Combat Engineer calling himself a god, but, I did hear and ammo tech calling himself a "god", then failing his test the next day.  You wanna know why Engineers don't get along with AmmoTech?  Its because of idiots like you who never touch, or go near anything that might cause them to leave their chair outside of Canada.  Well, inside too I suppose.  Your best stories include "One time, I almost got called out to recover a man overboard marker.  Whew, but, I didn't."

Anything else you wanna question me about?  Ask away. 

 

[kj_gully]

Thank you for your concise and professional response. It's wads like you who give Sappers a bad name, though thankfully the vast majority work hard and keep their head down, and manage to make up for idiots.

Good luck on tour, hope all your ammo requests don't get mysteriously screwed up. would suck to open a case of blue grenades

 

[geo]

Nemesis,

Whoa, slow down my friend.  No need to to blow a gasket at this guy.

 

[Nemesis]

Calm here.  Just telling it like it is. 

 

[Nemesis]

I think we need to return to the meat of the argument.

Hazard Allowance should be awarded for hazardous work. Be it jumping or diving the military already recognizes the incentive this pay provides. Currently a one time payment is provided for EOD techs, specifically for IEDD work. This is outdated, as the rules were generated when IED's encountered in service were a threat in Canada. RSP work done on conventional munitions is not taken into account at all.

The current threat environment (encountered specifically overseas), has changed the reasonable entitlement. An EOD tech deployed will deal with multiple incidents of dangerous UXO and IED's. It makes sense then to have a allowance (monthly), rather than a payment (incident), even if it were simply to reduce the amount of paperwork generated! The system established for one time incidents in Canada still makes sense while not deployed.

The confusion seems to be generated in terms of what is commonly understood to be "EOD" work, and indeed "Dangerous". Any soldier deals with munitions of all types on a frequent basis. To take the above arguments seriously, the logic should give infanteers using mortars extra pay, as well as sailors loading torpedos. Obviously this is does not make sense.

An Ammo Tech on a daily basis is not dealing with anything truly "Dangerous". If they are honest with themselves and their knowlege they will understand the ordnance principles of multiple safties etc, and the lack of frequency to which they deal with Non - Nato Standard munitions. They obviously have a good series of SOPs and TTP's which they apply to a high standard, as their accident rate is low if not non-existant.

The same cannot be said for the EOD Techs who deploy "Outside the Wire"  on operations. The mission derived need to accomplish EOD tasks with speed is HIGHLY dangerous. The "corners" cut are done not with a lack of safety or a stupidity of understanding, but a simple matter of prioritization. The EOD Tech's safety comes second to accompishing the mission, and maybe even third depending on intelligence requirements. It is from this practice that Hazard Allowance for EOD work would be justifed.

Techs from all four EOD trades have done this work, and can be commended for it. Anyone not currently practicing it is playing the "Me Too" game when asking for entitlements.

Oh yes .... God is a Combat Engineer. He was a Field Engineer but he remustered.
.

 

[Ammogod]

Excellent Post Nemesis

If your doing the EOD job in theater there should be extra pay.

Come 29 Jan I will be in theater as 2 i/c ammo section, hopefully all works out for everyone, (no need to send out blue grenades) lol

Cheers

 

[GO!!!]

I think we need to return to the meat of the argument.

Hazard Allowance should be awarded for hazardous work. Be it jumping or diving the military already recognizes the incentive ....

Reading this thread with interest, as it is waay out of my arcs, but one point -

Not everyone who has their wings collects jump pay (actually called "paratroop allowance"). You are only eligible to collect this allowance if you are basic para qualified and in a unit with designated parachute positions, and you are in one of those positions. This also means that jumping is no longer optional for you - and it means you will jump, full kit, as often as the hercs show up, or kicked out of the position.

Notably, paratroop allowance ceases when you are deployed, as it is a variant of danger pay, and you cannot recieve level 1 danger pay twice a month, and it is taxable, unlike other allowances.

The other side of this is the "casual parachuting allowance" which is where you get 50$ for each jump if you are not in a jump position but have your jump course and volunteer for each jump, depending on availability of spots, chutes etc.

Also, from experience, static line parachuting has some very real and serious injuries that happen on a regular basis - even when you do everything right - $hit happens. I don't think we've ever had a Coy level full kit jump without someone getting hurt - sometimes alot of someones.

The engineer trade has had some tragic incidents too - but I don't see military explosives breaking as many bones and killing as many as static line/FF jumping does as a matter of course. It's known and expected, hence the allowance.

 

[armyvern]

Go!!!

Well put.

 

[geo]

Go!!!
Agree with you, for the most part but, within the CME, you're drawing from a much smaller group... those exposed are exposed much more often.

 

[geo]

Without looking for a bunfight, here's a clarification that I am sure meets the intents, wants & desires of all Combat Arms & Support Services who put themselves at risk each day.  No one is looking for special treatment and no one wants to have their contribution to be belittled / minimized to the benefit of someone else.

From: GO!!

Understood, and well taken, I was just trying to dispel a (possible) perception that jump pay was both widespread and ongoing by simple virtue of having a course. To get jump pay, you have to jump all the time (up to 20 times a year lately).

For what it's worth, I think that paying EOD guys by the job is a great idea - this provides a bonus for a job well done, and ensures that someone safely burrowed into a school somewhere does not draw the pay for 10 years without ever doing the job on deployment. Having said that, nobody pays me anything beyond the regular in-country allowances for an exceptionally dangerous patrol or mission - and the only people killed so far in A-stan have been the rifle coys and their attachments. If a case could be made for day by day bonuses, the relatively "safe" job of EOD would be second in line to the rifle coys, FOO parties and attached medics and chimos.

Also, we have Infanteers (although they are a dying breed) who are Aslt Pioneer and Adv AP qualified who regularly blow dud grenades, burn increments and perform other dangerous tasks with no monetary compensation - so it is pretty hard to justify it domestically - lots of people do it.

Agreed!

CHIMO!

 

[Army_Brat]

My dad was at the slesse thing, he was a 1CER and after that incident, went into EOD and was training before the base closed.
I was googling to find the EOD insig, the masked bomber for a forum avatar and stumbled upon this.
That was the only time I ever seen my dad break down and cry in my life.