Hazard Allowance

[FEEOP042]

While I was In Bosnia 2003. I was talking to a Dutch Engineer and he said they get a Hazard allowance everytime they touch explosives. I think we should have the same thing. I know we have one for IEDD calls. But there is a hazard even with EOD and working with explosives. So while we are here on the range or overseas we should have some type of allowance. MP's gets spec pay for what sitting in a veh all day parked. Where is the justice.


Chimo

 

[Rodahn]

MP's gets spec pay for what sitting in a veh all day parked.
Chimo

You also forgot to mention Timmies......... ;D

 

[Michael OLeary]

What does a Dutch Engineer get paid?
What benefits does he get on top of his pay when deployed other that that hazard allowance?
How much is the hazard allowance?
What is he paid compared to cost of living at home, and compared to the same stats for a Canadian service member?

Maybe even with that extra hazard pay he still isn't making what a Canadian Engineer of equal rank is in the first place.

Are we talking about equal benefits, or just the same number of benefits?
It is hard to make or support a case without any of the relevant facts.

 

[aesop081]

Not that i want to defend the MPs but.....

Alot of trades that are in the Specialist pay group  use it as a recruiting incentive and to pay their members a salary comparative to what a civilian in that field would receive.  it is also used to pay members for the knowledge they are required to have in order to be members of that MOC and not for what they actualy do day to day.  In addition, some trades such as mine, have been out into the specialist pay group in an attempt to stop the bleeding out of experienced members who are extreamly expensive to train.  This does not compare in any way to this allowance you are proposing.  You should make a fair comparaison.  If you had brought up aircrew allowance, rescue specialist allowance, sea duty allowance or submarine allowance, you might have had a valid point.

Now, being an ex-engineer myself, i know that the trade has retention issues and is not a spec trade.  I remember enough career manager breifs where this was asked about and i remember the answer we got everytime.  If the leadership of the MP trade was more commited and effective than the leadership of the engineer trade in getting support for its soldiers, i cant say i would be surprised.

 

[McG]

MP's gets spec pay for what sitting in a veh all day parked.

Well, considering that Spec Pay and Hazard Allowance are apples and oranges, I think this is a red herring.  Spec Pay is linked to training/job description.  The MPs have it because of the Peace Officer status & the associated training background.  I suppose you could argue a case if you found a way to require every Cbt Engr to qualify equivalent to a civilian blasting ticket, but even then . . .

Anyway, that's not your point.  You are talking hazard allowance.  Are explosives dangerous?  Well, yes.  If you make a mistake you can be dead before you know it, but the same can be said of an infanteer on a live fire company attack range.  Where does the line get drawn?  Statistically, what are the risks associated with blasting a crater group when compared to diving, parachuting or neutralizing an IED?

 

[SprCForr]

[quote author=MCG ]  Statistically, what are the risks associated with blasting a crater group when compared to diving, parachuting or neutralizing an IED?
[/quote]

Over say the last 20 years? Of the three, blasting a Crater Group has been more lethal for Engineers.

I think the line is fine where it is. Bonus payments may be the way to go. For example: meet the requirements for CET, earn an incentive bonus. Yes, DND will subsidize the costs to earn it, but even with that in place how many have actually went to the effort?

 

[Nemesis]

As someone who has acutally gotten his HAZpay ($309 per IED RS)....I think all engrs who have to do any form of EOD should get it.  I am amazed that we acutally got haz pay, it is such a Pain to get it (but worth it).  I believe that we are the first ones to acutally get paid on tour.  I have talked to about 8 eod/iedd pers on athena/oef and they never got paid.

Funny, I could spend 6 hours RSPing a 2000lb bomb, and get nothing, or 45 min on and IED and get $309.  (It never took me 6 hours to rsp it, just over an hour....but you get the point.)

All ya gots to do is a positive action on an IED and get paid.  I know of Ammo Techs that all they have to do is load a neutrex, and get paid, and thats all they do....WTF?

Im all for HAZ Pay.

All engreers should get it if they touch explosives on tour.

Cheers.

 

[McG]

Over say the last 20 years? Of the three, blasting a Crater Group has been more lethal for Engineers.

I know of that incident.  However, what do the statistics say based on number of pers involved in said activity over the years to number killed/injured (and how does this compare to other activities)?  If there is going to be a hazard pay, that should be the deciding factor.  If constructing a basic charge is more dangerous than exiting a herc on a static line, then yes there is need to revisit the hazard allowance on one or the other of those activities.

Funny, I could spend 6 hours RSPing a 2000lb bomb, and get nothing, or 45 min on and IED and get $309.

...

All engreers should get it if they touch explosives on tour.

I support the hazard allowance for IEDD and RSP.  I would not go so far as to say that any work with explosives deserves it.  What ever the threshold, it should be applied the same across MOS (Engr, Clearance Diver or Ammo Tech).

 

[SprCForr]

I don't think stats would fully support an argument for the granting of Hazard pay (or Spec pay) to Sappers for simply handling explosives. All stats would show is what "has been" and what "is". It may indicate a trend, but cannot illuminate the potential hazard one would face in combination with all the enviromental conditions. So is making a basic charge more dangerous than jumping?  Of course not. Statistics support that but only superficially because the stats don't indicate the why. Then (strictly to stats) it would follow that blowing a crater group is more dangerous (because of the past casualties) as opposed to Diving or Jumping or EOD work (because of the limited numbers of pers involved in the activity and the lack of casualties). Of course it's a false assumption and we all know why. So I figure the deciding factor would be the extenuating circumstances and potential for increased personal danger in the execution of the task that should decide on the granting of Hazard pay.

I'm suprised to hear that RSP doesn't rate a bonus. Considering it's increased application, the hazards in dealing with malfunctioning ordnance and as well as the increased exposure of the operator. RSP used to be last on a short list of options (Choice #1 would be?...anyone?...anyone?...Bueller?  ;D) With the shift in priorities has this issue been sent higher for financial consideration? Is it not being applied across the board? How is it a pain? Is it sort of like the bun fight that we used to have back in the day about high rate and low rate and the deciding factors? I hated arguing with an Admin clerk that a souviner grenade body frighteningly altered (and fully functional) is not the same one issued from the Ammo wing. "But they're both grenades and ordnance is low rate..."

 

[Spr.Earl]

As someone who has acutally gotten his HAZpay ($309 per IED RS)....I think all engrs who have to do any form of EOD should get it.  I am amazed that we acutally got haz pay, it is such a Pain to get it (but worth it).  I believe that we are the first ones to acutally get paid on tour.  I have talked to about 8 eod/iedd pers on athena/oef and they never got paid.

Funny, I could spend 6 hours RSPing a 2000lb bomb, and get nothing, or 45 min on and IED and get $309.  (It never took me 6 hours to rsp it, just over an hour....but you get the point.)

All ya gots to do is a positive action on an IED and get paid.  I know of Ammo Techs that all they have to do is load a neutrex, and get paid, and thats all they do....WTF?

Im all for HAZ Pay.

All engreers should get it if they touch explosives on tour.

Cheers.

For Spec. pay EOD/IED plus #2's should get Spec. pay.
Why?
It's a all volunteer sub trade.
No one is enforced into EOD/IED all join on their own submission and one can leave at any time with no shame.

But there again I do agree with a hazard/bonus pay for Sapper's as since the first deployment in Afg. who has lead the Queen of Battle through the UXO/submuntion fields in the mountains to exrecise the pointy end?

Your old Muddy old Engineer.

We are the most exspensive to train with in the Army and the samallest Corps of all.

 

[kj_gully]

. RSP used to be last on a short list of options (Choice #1 would be?...anyone?...anyone?...Bueller?  ;D) ..."

BIP?

 

[kj_gully]

For Spec. pay EOD/IED plus #2's should get Spec. pay.
Why?
It's a all volunteer sub trade.
No one is enforced into EOD/IED all join on their own submission and one can leave at any time with no shame.

that doesn't have anything to do with spec pay. You have an argument for a hazardous duty allowance, I think while "employed in the duties of an EOD Tech" ie in theater, or when employed @ an EOD centre ( anyone in the CF still employed in an EOD centre). I think that if you are tasked to dispose of explosives, not just handle explosives you should get paid. We all know that explosives in "our" (your) hands is a tool, like a crane or auger or picket pounder, and the accident @ Slesse was due to not using the proper tool for the proper job. If you use a rock instead of a hammer, you can get hurt.

 

[Spr.Earl]

that doesn't have anything to do with spec pay. You have an argument for a hazardous duty allowance, I think while "employed in the duties of an EOD Tech" ie in theater, or when employed @ an EOD centre ( anyone in the CF still employed in an EOD centre). I think that if you are tasked to dispose of explosives, not just handle explosives you should get paid. We all know that explosives in "our" (your) hands is a tool, like a crane or auger or picket pounder, and the accident @ Slesse was due to not using the proper tool for the proper job. If you use a rock instead of a hammer, you can get hurt.

Yes we agree but those who are Tech's should also get Spec. pay on top of hda.
Sound fare?

 

[kj_gully]

if they create a new trade, that was deemed a "spec trade" and EOD pers remustered to it, and the training was similar, and equivalent to training that would give a post secondary degree or diploma, then yes Spec pay would be in order. You don't get spec pay for danger, its for education. Now HB is what, 6months, nine months? HA is 5? weeks, HC I don't remember @ all, but its not too long. all in all, less than a year. The only other way you could argue it I suppose, is if a lot of qualified people were "jumping ship" for high paying jobs on civvie street. Now I know there has been some of that in the past, but currently?  A monthly hazard allowance is a much better avenue, I think.

 

[geo]

yeah.... think of all the fellas who collect a para allowance for doing something easy like jumping in and out of aircraft

 

[kj_gully]

I know of that incident.  However, what do the statistics say based on number of pers involved in said activity over the years to number killed/injured (and how does this compare to other activities)?  If there is going to be a hazard pay, that should be the deciding factor.  If constructing a basic charge is more dangerous than exiting a herc on a static line, then yes there is need to revisit the hazard allowance on one or the other of those activities.
I support the hazard allowance for IEDD and RSP.  I would not go so far as to say that any work with explosives deserves it.  What ever the threshold, it should be applied the same across MOS (Engr, Clearance Diver or Ammo Tech).

The most hazardous part of an Engineer's job in the last 19 years 2 months has been driving a vehicle. Should that mean that there should be a badge and hazard pay for engineer drivers/ FE Ops? Youall receive hazard pay for performing the job you signed up for in a risk environment. you also are compensated by receiving that pay without federal tax. I know a great job that earns spec 2 pay, a hazardous duty allowance, an operational tempo that is the highest in the CF, but you will have to give up the tax free pay for the sake of your marriage. Any guesses?

 

[Spr.Earl]

C.D.S.?  ;D

 

[Spr.Earl]

The most hazardous part of an Engineer's job in the last 19 years 2 months has been driving a vehicle. Should that mean that there should be a badge and hazard pay for engineer drivers/ FE Ops? Youall receive hazard pay for performing the job you signed up for in a risk environment. you also are compensated by receiving that pay without federal tax. I know a great job that earns spec 2 pay, a hazardous duty allowance, an operational tempo that is the highest in the CF, but you will have to give up the tax free pay for the sake of your marriage. Any guesses?

"The most hazardous part of an Engineer's job in the last 19 years 2 months has been driving a vehicle."
Care to go back 30 yrs?
We lost 2 good men in the Fraser Canyon back in 77 on our road move back from Wain. Con. and I was part of that convoy and remember it very well.

The only trade's who volunteer for EOD/IEDD are F.E.'s and Fleet Diver's,ammo techs,air weapon's tech's  it's part of their training,how many are in the Field right now?I figure non?
Correct me if I'm wrong.
On a Air Field who takes care of making safe captured Air Craft waepon's?
F.E's!

I will give credit where credit is due our RCN Fleet Diver's deserve our Pooker Sapper for their work in EOD/IED in country.
Yes SPEC PAY for those who get the ticket punch's and knowing the danger's and willing to volunteer to be become EOD/IED Tech's plus what ever other bonus's our cheap government will give us.

 

[Spr.Earl]

that doesn't have anything to do with spec pay. You have an argument for a hazardous duty allowance, I think while "employed in the duties of an EOD Tech" ie in theater, or when employed @ an EOD centre ( anyone in the CF still employed in an EOD centre). I think that if you are tasked to dispose of explosives, not just handle explosives you should get paid. We all know that explosives in "our" (your) hands is a tool, like a crane or
auger or picket pounder, and the accident @ Slesse was due to not using the proper tool for the proper job. If you use a rock instead of a hammer,  you can get hurt.

Re Slesse Creek accident.

Slesse Demolition Range Accident. A plaque to the memory of the casualties of the June 1988

demolition accident at the CFB Chilliwack Slesse Range is displayed inside the main entrance to the Canadian

Forces School of Military Engineering (which is now an RCMP and local Police Training Center).

The memorial plaque is inscribed: “In memory of  Captain J.W. Best,

Lieutenant M.D. Aucoin, .Second Lieutenant K.J. Wilkinson, Officer Cadet K.R. Gawne, Officer Cadet W.C. Sutton, Officer

Cadet W.J. Whitley; killed in a demolitions training accident at Slesse Range 20 June 1988.”

I was on my Militia 6A course and we were bumpted to give way for the Officer Cadet's and from 6Fd we had Christopher Robin ,I can't remember his real name but that was his nick name he was there and did not stay in the Militia long after that.

 

[Ammogod]

All ya gots to do is a positive action on an IED and get paid.  I know of Ammo Techs that all they have to do is load a neutrex, and get paid, and thats all they do....WTF?


Nemesis the way I read the thread its about danger pay for trades, as a AMMO TECH I work with Ammunition and explosives every day not just days that I do EOD work, Every day I inspect ammunition and explosives more offen than not it is returned by user units in a dangerous state i.e arty rounds with fuse's set,loose primers in propellent containers Engineer units returning dets rolling around in the det containers because they throw out the Styrofoam, engineer units returning trip flares with the safety's removed and wire wrapped around the flare. I could go on with the unsafe way ammunition and explosives are returned by units.   

Could you please give me one or two names of Ammo Techs that just load a neutrex and get paid. As I know all 143 techs in my trade I would like to know who has the big swan of just loading the neutrex.

PS do you know the diff between GOD and a Field ENG, GOD doesn't go around saying he is a FIELD  ENGINEER