- Reaction score
- 213
- Points
- 880
As it easy as it should be, me =likely medically rejected. 
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 10
Heynow. I’m a first time poster, long time applicant stuck in the enrollment process. So yeah, I’m stuck in the enrollment process due to some medical problems, specifically today I want to address my hearing probs. I’ve been searching throughout your forums and found some various links which somewhat addressed my questions, but not fully.
Okay, so before I start asking questions I’ll give you guys some background. I have hearing loss in my right ear at the 500Hz range and I can’t hear below 35db. Anything lower then 500Hz or greater I have acceptable hearing as stated by the army’s requirements, below 30db at any range other then 500Hz. My left ear has superb hearing, I can hear from 125hz to 12000hz well below 20db. My doctor called this asymmetric hearing loss.
My doctor, not an audiologist but rather a professor of neurology at the University of Toronto and a otolaryngologist (ENT) for the university health network said I’m fine and that because of this little notch he doesn’t expect that my general hearing is degrading or would impede my performance in military service. He didn’t give me much face time because he was too busy for me... This bumbaclut from academia didn’t mention the above information in his 70 dollar, 3 line note. All the note said was that I was fine and he wrote the note based on the information asked for, a diagnosis, that was previously sent to me by a letter from Ottawa. I blame him for the price of the letter but blame Ottawa for the ambiguity and boiler-plate-ness of these medical letters.
Anticipating that the 3 line letter wouldn’t be enough I’ve also included the audiologist report and diagnosis. Figuring giving more information then what the letter seemed to ask would help the medical officer paint a better picture.
Hearing is very important, communication and the ability to communicate well in less-then ideal environments is vital where lives besides your own are at stake. I am a responsible individual and that if I hold any doubts in my ability to hear I would stop pursing this venture.
I can communicate and according to the audiologist testing of speech recognition I scored 96%, I confused the words mushroom and washroom, at 45db with a minimal recognition threshold at 10 db. The audiologist said that my recognition was excellent and that was stated in the diagnosis made by her which was also sent to Ottawa. Her diagnosis was more in-depth then the ENT’s note but the diagnosis wasn’t addressed to the military but rather to my family doctor.
From my understanding the army would classify my hearing probs as H3 which is acceptable for my trade, infantry. Today I just got a letter from Ottawa, it was addressed July 19, that said medical limitations have been assigned and that I do not meet the common enrolment medical standard required by both the regular and Reserve forces. It also said that I ought to contact my CFRC for the final decision concerning your application. So I called the CFRC and they weren’t much help. They said they didn’t know...
So for my question. Is my hearing that bad that I can’t enroll as an infantry NCM and is there anything that I can do? Constantly I’ve been told my hearing is fine by 2 audiologists, and my specialist.
Okay, so before I start asking questions I’ll give you guys some background. I have hearing loss in my right ear at the 500Hz range and I can’t hear below 35db. Anything lower then 500Hz or greater I have acceptable hearing as stated by the army’s requirements, below 30db at any range other then 500Hz. My left ear has superb hearing, I can hear from 125hz to 12000hz well below 20db. My doctor called this asymmetric hearing loss.
My doctor, not an audiologist but rather a professor of neurology at the University of Toronto and a otolaryngologist (ENT) for the university health network said I’m fine and that because of this little notch he doesn’t expect that my general hearing is degrading or would impede my performance in military service. He didn’t give me much face time because he was too busy for me... This bumbaclut from academia didn’t mention the above information in his 70 dollar, 3 line note. All the note said was that I was fine and he wrote the note based on the information asked for, a diagnosis, that was previously sent to me by a letter from Ottawa. I blame him for the price of the letter but blame Ottawa for the ambiguity and boiler-plate-ness of these medical letters.
Anticipating that the 3 line letter wouldn’t be enough I’ve also included the audiologist report and diagnosis. Figuring giving more information then what the letter seemed to ask would help the medical officer paint a better picture.
Hearing is very important, communication and the ability to communicate well in less-then ideal environments is vital where lives besides your own are at stake. I am a responsible individual and that if I hold any doubts in my ability to hear I would stop pursing this venture.
I can communicate and according to the audiologist testing of speech recognition I scored 96%, I confused the words mushroom and washroom, at 45db with a minimal recognition threshold at 10 db. The audiologist said that my recognition was excellent and that was stated in the diagnosis made by her which was also sent to Ottawa. Her diagnosis was more in-depth then the ENT’s note but the diagnosis wasn’t addressed to the military but rather to my family doctor.
From my understanding the army would classify my hearing probs as H3 which is acceptable for my trade, infantry. Today I just got a letter from Ottawa, it was addressed July 19, that said medical limitations have been assigned and that I do not meet the common enrolment medical standard required by both the regular and Reserve forces. It also said that I ought to contact my CFRC for the final decision concerning your application. So I called the CFRC and they weren’t much help. They said they didn’t know...
So for my question. Is my hearing that bad that I can’t enroll as an infantry NCM and is there anything that I can do? Constantly I’ve been told my hearing is fine by 2 audiologists, and my specialist.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
If you have submitted all of your papers and letters you have from the Drs and Specialists, and you were still told no, I would have to say that you have your answer. I realize that is not the answer you want to hear, but, not everyone makes it into the military.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
Common enrolment medical standards (CEMS) must be met in order to be enrolled in the CF. It is does not matter if you meet the occupation medical standards. You clearly do not meet the CEMS and therefore are not employable by the CF. Unless your hearing improves you are SOL and should seek employment elsewhere.
- Reaction score
- 4,844
- Points
- 1,060
Once more kin, thank you for the 'from the horse's mouth' point(s)of clarity.
'Nuff said. If you need more clarity, go to the Recruiting Centre in person.
'Nuff said. If you need more clarity, go to the Recruiting Centre in person.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 60
i'm on the same boat. this is the only part of the test that i'm worried about. i used to listen to blaring music on headphones and had frequented clubs almost every week up until just recently.
can somebody put it in layman's terms... how bad an h3 is. i've seen the stats but can't really picture how bad is BAD hearing. 500Hz... 50db... all greek to me. let's say i can hear fine with anyone talking to me face to face and can understand whispers... thinking of it now, i can hear people fine talking (yelling) in clubs. do you have to be almost deaf to be classified an h3 or h4? i'm just a bit worried and my medical isn't until the 22nd. any help would be appreciated.
can somebody put it in layman's terms... how bad an h3 is. i've seen the stats but can't really picture how bad is BAD hearing. 500Hz... 50db... all greek to me. let's say i can hear fine with anyone talking to me face to face and can understand whispers... thinking of it now, i can hear people fine talking (yelling) in clubs. do you have to be almost deaf to be classified an h3 or h4? i'm just a bit worried and my medical isn't until the 22nd. any help would be appreciated.
- Reaction score
- 4,844
- Points
- 1,060
Your hearing will have to meet the standard for CF recruitment, NOT what the standard is for your chosen trade. You may be an H3, and that may be the minimum required for your trade, but if your hearing does not meet the standard for the Recruit medical, your SOL. Go talk to the Recruiting Centre................and do a SEARCH next time. We covered this a few weeks ago.
The CF minimum hearing standard is a grade of H2. H2 would be a hearing level of 30db or better (20,10,5 etc.) in both ears in the frequencies of 125 to 8000 Hz, if I don't remember wrong from this link; (it doesn't work for me at the moment) http://www.forces.gc.ca/health/policies/med_standards/pdf/Engraph/cfp154_annexC_e.pdf (link posted by Old medic inhttp://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/37674/post-311436.html#msg311436. A few months ago I had to get my hearing test for the RCMP and in the results I noticed that I was 30 or better db's in both ears in all frequencies except my left ear at 3k hits 40 db. For the RCMP I was OK, but what I get is that I am H3. Would I still be employable for the CF ? The H3 standards are waaaaaaaaay lower than H2. (If don't remember wrong again) its like at least 50db hearing in the best ear for all the frequencies. FOR SOMEBODY LIKE OLD MEDIC WHO HAS EXPERIENCE WITH THESE THINGS PLEASE: AM I L H3 WITH THIS 40DB @ 3K ?. Thanks in advance for any input.
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/37674/post-311436.html#msg311436. A few months ago I had to get my hearing test for the RCMP and in the results I noticed that I was 30 or better db's in both ears in all frequencies except my left ear at 3k hits 40 db. For the RCMP I was OK, but what I get is that I am H3. Would I still be employable for the CF ? The H3 standards are waaaaaaaaay lower than H2. (If don't remember wrong again) its like at least 50db hearing in the best ear for all the frequencies. FOR SOMEBODY LIKE OLD MEDIC WHO HAS EXPERIENCE WITH THESE THINGS PLEASE: AM I L H3 WITH THIS 40DB @ 3K ?. Thanks in advance for any input.
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 410
Auditory Acuity
A hearing test to check auditory acuity is a part of each medical exam. Information on the full medical exam
can be found at: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/37674.0.html
The test is conducted in a quiet room, or a hearing booth using an audiometer.
Hearing aids are not to be worn during the testing.
Both ears will be tested with seven different frequencies (Hertz) or pure tones, for a total of 14 tones.
These will be at 250, 500, 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000, and 6000 Hertz. Some tones may be tested more
than once.
The standard is to start each at 30 db and work down or up (decrease or increase the volume) until the hearing
threashold is reached, then drop under or over one db level and return past the threashold to confirm.
The hearing threshhold is the point at which you hear that sound.
Once you hear the sound, you indicate it by pressing the button. The volume (Db) level is then recorded
on the chart.
An example of the test chart can be seen at:
http://www.forces.gc.ca/health/policies/med_standards/pdf/Engraph/cfp154_annexHappen1pg3_e.pdf
The results of the hearing test will determine which hearing category is assigned.
The hearing category is expressed as being H1, H2, H3 or H4.
H1 is normal or above hearing, while H4 indicates moderately severe hearing loss or below.
The description of each category is:
(Highlights added to illustrate differences in categories).
Notes:
You must fall into category H1 or H2 to be enrolled.
H1 Is Normal human hearing or anything above average.
H2 fits the category mild hearing loss.
H3 fits the category of Moderate hearing loss. If any ear scores between 31 and 50 db on the 500, 1000,
2000 or 3000 Hz tone, you are an H3.
H4 fits the category of Moderately severe hearing loss, or below (Severe and Profound). If any ear scores
over 51 db on the 500, 1000, 2000 or 3000 Hz tone, you are an H4.
Levels of hearing loss
Hearing impairment is measured by the degree of loudness (decibels), a sound reaches before you detect it.
The average human can hear sounds between 20 Hz and 16,000 Hz. (16 KHz).
Above average human hearing is between 16 Hz and 20,000 Hz (20 KHz).
Mild: you detect the sound between 25 and 40 dB
Moderate: you detect the sound between 41 and 55 dB
Moderately severe: you detect the sound between 56 and 70 dB
Severe: you detect the sound between 71 and 90 dB
Profound: you need 90 dB or greater to detect the sound.
Home Testing
There are various shareware programs available on line for your home computer that will allow you to check or test
your own hearing. Be warned, they are not as reliable as a true audiometer test.
Definitions and Terms
Further Reading:
Understanding Your Hearing Test http://www.earinfo.com/howread1.html
Audiograms http://www.sfu.ca/sonic-studio/handbook/Audiogram.html
With input and thanks too: kj_gully, ParaMedTech, St. Micheal's Medical Team, and xo31@711ret
A hearing test to check auditory acuity is a part of each medical exam. Information on the full medical exam
can be found at: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/37674.0.html
The test is conducted in a quiet room, or a hearing booth using an audiometer.
Hearing aids are not to be worn during the testing.
Both ears will be tested with seven different frequencies (Hertz) or pure tones, for a total of 14 tones.
These will be at 250, 500, 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000, and 6000 Hertz. Some tones may be tested more
than once.
The standard is to start each at 30 db and work down or up (decrease or increase the volume) until the hearing
threashold is reached, then drop under or over one db level and return past the threashold to confirm.
The hearing threshhold is the point at which you hear that sound.
Once you hear the sound, you indicate it by pressing the button. The volume (Db) level is then recorded
on the chart.
An example of the test chart can be seen at:
http://www.forces.gc.ca/health/policies/med_standards/pdf/Engraph/cfp154_annexHappen1pg3_e.pdf
The results of the hearing test will determine which hearing category is assigned.
The hearing category is expressed as being H1, H2, H3 or H4.
H1 is normal or above hearing, while H4 indicates moderately severe hearing loss or below.
The description of each category is:
Source: http://www.forces.gc.ca/health/policies/med_standards/pdf/Engraph/cfp154_annexC_e.pdf
(Highlights added to illustrate differences in categories).
Notes:
You must fall into category H1 or H2 to be enrolled.
H1 Is Normal human hearing or anything above average.
H2 fits the category mild hearing loss.
H3 fits the category of Moderate hearing loss. If any ear scores between 31 and 50 db on the 500, 1000,
2000 or 3000 Hz tone, you are an H3.
H4 fits the category of Moderately severe hearing loss, or below (Severe and Profound). If any ear scores
over 51 db on the 500, 1000, 2000 or 3000 Hz tone, you are an H4.
Levels of hearing loss
Hearing impairment is measured by the degree of loudness (decibels), a sound reaches before you detect it.
The average human can hear sounds between 20 Hz and 16,000 Hz. (16 KHz).
Above average human hearing is between 16 Hz and 20,000 Hz (20 KHz).
Mild: you detect the sound between 25 and 40 dB
Moderate: you detect the sound between 41 and 55 dB
Moderately severe: you detect the sound between 56 and 70 dB
Severe: you detect the sound between 71 and 90 dB
Profound: you need 90 dB or greater to detect the sound.
Home Testing
There are various shareware programs available on line for your home computer that will allow you to check or test
your own hearing. Be warned, they are not as reliable as a true audiometer test.
Definitions and Terms
| Term | Definition or explaination |
| Anacusis | Deafness. Complete inability to hear. |
| Audiogram | A graph that plots hearing loss. |
| Audiometer | A tone generating device used to plot an audiogram. |
| Deafness | The complete inability to hear (Anacusis). |
| Decibels | A unit of scale that expresses the loudness (intensity) of sound. it is 1/10th of a bel. |
| Db | abbreviation for Decibels |
| Diplacusis | Hearing defect where a single tone is heard as two pitches by the two ears. |
| Frequency | measured in hertz (Hz), Historically (before 1960) measured in cycles per second (cps or c/s) |
| Hearing Impaired | See impaired hearing below. |
| Hearing threshhold | The level at which sound becomes audible. |
| Hertz | The unit of measure for frequency. One Hertz is one cycle per second (cps). |
| Hyperacusis | Sensativity to loud sounds. |
| Hz | abbreviation for Hertz |
| Impaired hearing | Usually hearing is impaired when the threshhold is shifted 25 dB or more, over the 500, 1000 and 2000 Hz frequency. It is then further classified as either mild, moderate, moderately severe, severe or profound hearing loss. |
| Noise | An unwanted sound. |
| Presbycusis | Hearing loss attributed to advancing age. |
| Pure Tone | A tone (sound) with a single, unchanging frequency. Might be referred to as a sinus tone. |
| Sound (wave) | Energy that travels through a medium (air, water) in a wave. It's properties are frequency, wavelength, period, amplitude, and speed. |
| Tinnitus | Ringing or other noise in one or both ears. |
Further Reading:
Understanding Your Hearing Test http://www.earinfo.com/howread1.html
Audiograms http://www.sfu.ca/sonic-studio/handbook/Audiogram.html
With input and thanks too: kj_gully, ParaMedTech, St. Micheal's Medical Team, and xo31@711ret
I've got a stumper for you.
I've read and understand the hearing requirements and understand the difference between H1 through H4. I'm also an ex-military member and am considering re-enrollment. When I left I was an H1 with 25db loss at 3000Hz. When I originally enrolled I was H1 with 0 db at 3000HZ. All other pitch frequencies were and are well under the 30 db mark from 250hz through 8000 HZ.
Through my employment i get my hearing tested every 6 months. We discovered, quite by accident, that I have a 'dead spot' in the 3000 hz range. Meaning. I can't hear 30 db or 25 db but can hear 35, 20, 15, 10 db in that frequency. This was discovered between two 6 month checks. One audiometric technician went 35db down and baselined me at 35 db at 3000 hz. Six months later, a different technician did 0 db up on all frequencies and baselined me at 10 db at 3000 Hz. This was a huge difference in the baseline, which created a need to retest in a more extensive fashion as it was more than 10 db.
In a 0-35 db test, I can hear the lower db tones, and get baselined at 10 db as they hit 0, i don't respond, hit 5, no response, hit 10, i respond, hit 5, don't respond, hit 10, i respond. In a top down test, I'll baseline at 35 as the tech will hit 30, i won't respond, hit 35, I do, hit 30 again, i don't hit 35, i do and tada...i get baselined at 30.
Can a member with experience in the med field or someone with similar experience give me some insight on what my position will be in a recruiting medical?
I've read and understand the hearing requirements and understand the difference between H1 through H4. I'm also an ex-military member and am considering re-enrollment. When I left I was an H1 with 25db loss at 3000Hz. When I originally enrolled I was H1 with 0 db at 3000HZ. All other pitch frequencies were and are well under the 30 db mark from 250hz through 8000 HZ.
Through my employment i get my hearing tested every 6 months. We discovered, quite by accident, that I have a 'dead spot' in the 3000 hz range. Meaning. I can't hear 30 db or 25 db but can hear 35, 20, 15, 10 db in that frequency. This was discovered between two 6 month checks. One audiometric technician went 35db down and baselined me at 35 db at 3000 hz. Six months later, a different technician did 0 db up on all frequencies and baselined me at 10 db at 3000 Hz. This was a huge difference in the baseline, which created a need to retest in a more extensive fashion as it was more than 10 db.
In a 0-35 db test, I can hear the lower db tones, and get baselined at 10 db as they hit 0, i don't respond, hit 5, no response, hit 10, i respond, hit 5, don't respond, hit 10, i respond. In a top down test, I'll baseline at 35 as the tech will hit 30, i won't respond, hit 35, I do, hit 30 again, i don't hit 35, i do and tada...i get baselined at 30.
Can a member with experience in the med field or someone with similar experience give me some insight on what my position will be in a recruiting medical?
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
I have applied to CF, I have passed all test, etc, only was standing was my medical, there were two things, one of them was my back bend, but it was accepted, second, was my hearing, I lost hearing when I was 2 years old on my right side I am totally deaf, no fix, the left is 100% , I have been going for hearing tests every 3 to 5 years to check if anything bad goes with good ear, and nothing changed for the past 27 years, I have provided all my tests, and unfortunately they said that the audiogram shows that my hearing ability doesn't meet the common enrollment medical standard required by CF, when I phoned them to get the final decision they told me that I was in class 2 of hearing standard they told me that I can appeal if I wish but I don;t know if I have chance at all, does anybody knows how these classes are divided and specifications in each class
Thanks in advance
Thanks in advance
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 410
If you read through the Enrollment Medical Standards, there is information on each part of the medical process including hearing. There is also other links provided that may help you with some of your questions.
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 430
locked
dileas
tess
army.ca staff
dileas
tess
army.ca staff
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 60
This is a question for the medical people. I have done the reading on here but my question is different due to my results.
I had my medical, CFAT, and interview last week. I was accepted into the CF as an Armored Soldier. I passed everything with confidence. Except my hearing exam....
I was recorded as a H3 with a 45db loss in my right ear. The requirement is 30db or less for H2. I have since then seen my family doctor and he syringed my ears, checked my ears and they were fine. He got me an appointment with an Audiologist in my hospital. today. I passed my left ear, on both ears there were no damage to my inner ear or ear drum, but I did not meet 30db on my right ear.
There was a huge difference since getting my ears cleaned. I passed everything with my right ear except the 4000hz. As the requirement is 30db, I got 35. It is a big improvement from 45db to 35db, and the Audiologist recommended that my hearing was near perfect. I can hear good, whispers good, my concern is that I wont get in. I have trained hard and have my heart set on it. What are the chances of the CF "bending" the rule a little for a slight decrease on one of the 8 frequencies tested. I never failed it by much, just a little over the requirement for a H2. Has this ever been done before?
I had my medical, CFAT, and interview last week. I was accepted into the CF as an Armored Soldier. I passed everything with confidence. Except my hearing exam....
I was recorded as a H3 with a 45db loss in my right ear. The requirement is 30db or less for H2. I have since then seen my family doctor and he syringed my ears, checked my ears and they were fine. He got me an appointment with an Audiologist in my hospital. today. I passed my left ear, on both ears there were no damage to my inner ear or ear drum, but I did not meet 30db on my right ear.
There was a huge difference since getting my ears cleaned. I passed everything with my right ear except the 4000hz. As the requirement is 30db, I got 35. It is a big improvement from 45db to 35db, and the Audiologist recommended that my hearing was near perfect. I can hear good, whispers good, my concern is that I wont get in. I have trained hard and have my heart set on it. What are the chances of the CF "bending" the rule a little for a slight decrease on one of the 8 frequencies tested. I never failed it by much, just a little over the requirement for a H2. Has this ever been done before?
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
Nick, for your identities and personal security, I would suggest you remove the copies of you medical files, and if you put them up, at least remove or black out your personal info, ie: full name, dob, etc.
You really don't want that stuff floating around on the internet.
You really don't want that stuff floating around on the internet.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 60
Done. I though I had all my personal stuff erased. All personal info except name erased now
Now back to my question...
Now back to my question...
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
hey Nick, you are on the same boat as I am , I have been scored as H3, which I don't cut into army, but I am accepted into trade which accept H3 , but to get into trade I need to be accepted to Army.. , I don't make rules,, the only way to get it if you have been in CF before and then left , then they will accept you into trade, and army with H3 score.. this sounds like double standard system, it would of be nice if CF change or adjust medical policy for hearing and did like Vision has score from V1 to V5 (where V1 to v4 gets you enrolled) , will it ever happen? we will never know
the only way to get this ruled bend possibly, you have to start with Human Rights Commission...
the only way to get this ruled bend possibly, you have to start with Human Rights Commission...
Similar threads
