High Ranking Police Folk Allegedly Behaving Badly

[Jarnhamar]

So we need a union is what you're saying?

I'm 200% onboard with a union.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Very valid question and that's your answer?

Just to confirm, your wondering what power Police Unions and Mental Health professionals have ?

I'm 200% onboard with a union.

I am too, actually.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Just to confirm, your wondering what power Police Unions and Mental Health professionals have ?

Nope....you just brought Mental Health professionals into the question.

Wait, since you don't have an answer, I'll give it to you. A Union has only the power of making sure Management follows the rules that are usually laid out in a collective agreement.

Ever know anyone who won their grievance?
Guess soldiers just have too much power then.....(sarcasm emoji here)

 

[brihard]

The courts can choose whether or not to go along with medical advice that someone not appear in court. Crown or the court could still seek to compel the testimony; in this case, crown seems to have decided the juice isn’t worth the squeeze, and stayed charges. I’m speculating, but I think you’ll see things play out differently in the civil case where the balance of interests is very different.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Nope....you just brought Mental Health professionals into the question.

Wait, since you don't have an answer, I'll give it to you. A Union has only the power of making sure Management follows the rules that are usually laid out in a collective agreement.

Ever know anyone who won their grievance?
Guess soldiers just have too much power then.....(sarcasm emoji here)

Perhaps you missed this part

Det. Kirk Gidley sent a note from a psychologist saying he can’t testify. But the detective is capable of performing in a thrash-metal band.

I'd like to draw your attention to the word Psychologist. Who is a mental health professional.

Obviously the professional opinion of the psychologist had the power to convince the courts that the LEOs testimony wasn't advantageous for someone.

As for unions, they are powerful organizations. That on one hand do as you say, and the other also have a track record of protecting dead weight, for what seems to be no other reason than just to be oppositional to management teams.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

As for unions, they are powerful organizations. That on one hand do as you say, and the other also have a track record of protecting dead weight, for what seems to be no other reason than just to be oppositional to management teams.

You just aren't catching it. How about this, you hire a lawyer and he decides that, after taking your money, you're not worth giving a proper argument/defense for. Would you be happy??

Just like in court, if the Crown has done its job, all a Union can do is beg for a lighter sentence.
Unless you know something I don't after 32 years as a Steward....cause I've lost some I'd give another swing at if that's the case.

 

[BrianWL]

Perhaps you missed this part

Det. Kirk Gidley sent a note from a psychologist saying he can’t testify. But the detective is capable of performing in a thrash-metal band.

I'd like to draw your attention to the word Psychologist. Who is a mental health professional.

Obviously the professional opinion of the psychologist had the power to convince the courts that the LEOs testimony wasn't advantageous for someone.

As for unions, they are powerful organizations. That on one hand do as you say, and the other also have a track record of protecting dead weight, for what seems to be no other reason than just to be oppositional to management teams.

not quite unionized, no right to strike - more of a collective bargaining unit or easier put - an Association, at least in Ontario where I work.... as far as protecting dead weight goes, that is a minefield of its own, as the Association is expected to defend its members adequately - at risk of being held civilly responsible by a member claiming unfair representation by their association. it can get a tad tricky, ie) the Niagara on Niagara shooting of a few years back....

 

[mariomike]

In 1972, Metro Police was made an essential service. They gave up their right to strike in exchange for compulsory binding interest arbitration.

But, I recall them working to rule.

In 2017, 9-1-1 response times were affected during a slowdown over a schedule that had not changed in 35 years.

Back in 1976, there was another work to rule when Metro fought a TPA arbitration victory over the two-officer car to the Supreme Court of Canada, and lost, again.

"It took me 10 years to get two men in a car in Metro. We had guys beaten up, stabbed and murdered when they were one in a car."
Sid Brown, President Metro Toronto Police Association
Toronto Star, December 20, 1976

 

[Jarnhamar]

Perhaps you missed this part

Det. Kirk Gidley sent a note from a psychologist saying he can’t testify. But the detective is capable of performing in a thrash-metal band.

It's the same thing in the CAF.

Someone with MELs so severe they can't work because they can barely stand but they can post pictures of themselves off-roading and pushing stuck 4x4s out of the mud. Or post pictures of themselves standing for 8 hours on a boat in a fishing tournament. I may or may not have bumped into someone skiing this week who is on sick leave because they're practically disabled.


The detective wouldn't have a difficult time getting the psychologist to explain that performing in a thrash-metal band helps his mental health.
It's really not surprising from the OPS.

 

[Jarnhamar]

But, I recall them working to rule.

One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them?

 

[Eaglelord17]

You just aren't catching it. How about this, you hire a lawyer and he decides that, after taking your money, you're not worth giving a proper argument/defense for. Would you be happy??

Just like in court, if the Crown has done its job, all a Union can do is beg for a lighter sentence.
Unless you know something I don't after 32 years as a Steward....cause I've lost some I'd give another swing at if that's the case.

This.

Most the time the reason a union works out in the members favour is because management didn't do their jobs as opposed to the union saving a POS.

My workplace is heavily unionized. We have lots of people who don't deserve to work there. Management being a big part of those who don't deserve to work there. They don't do their job and build records. They don't do the leg work required for the process.

Simple example: You have a guy that doesn't do much work and regularly books off. One day management has enough and fires him. At the grievance meeting it goes something like this usually. Did management document those issues? Did management council that person to let them know there deficiencies? No? Then if they did document the problem it doesn't matter because they never tried to correct the behaviour. Now that POS can even claim harassment because it went from 0 to 100 instantly without build up. The result being they get their job back with back pay.

That's not the unions fault they got their job back, it is the companies because if they had followed the proper steps they wouldn't have had a leg to stand on. And to be fair to the worker if they had counselled them early on they likely wouldn't have gotten to that point as they would have been informed about their deficiencies and the need to correct them.

 

[daftandbarmy]

This.

Most the time the reason a union works out in the members favour is because management didn't do their jobs as opposed to the union saving a POS.

My workplace is heavily unionized. We have lots of people who don't deserve to work there. Management being a big part of those who don't deserve to work there. They don't do their job and build records. They don't do the leg work required for the process.

Simple example: You have a guy that doesn't do much work and regularly books off. One day management has enough and fires him. At the grievance meeting it goes something like this usually. Did management document those issues? Did management council that person to let them know there deficiencies? No? Then if they did document the problem it doesn't matter because they never tried to correct the behaviour. Now that POS can even claim harassment because it went from 0 to 100 instantly without build up. The result being they get their job back with back pay.

That's not the unions fault they got their job back, it is the companies because if they had followed the proper steps they wouldn't have had a leg to stand on. And to be fair to the worker if they had counselled them early on they likely wouldn't have gotten to that point as they would have been informed about their deficiencies and the need to correct them.

This goes for bad management staff too, who are impossible to fire/ demote etc because of lack of a history of documentation/ corrective action.

 

[mariomike]

This goes for bad management staff too, who are impossible to fire/ demote etc because of lack of a history of documentation/ corrective action.

I remember when they let ten ( 10! ) management people go in one day. That was a record. But, it happened pretty regularly on a more modest scale.

Nothing lacking in their personal or professional quality. They didn't do anything wrong.
As they were non-union, it was not a layoff. They were not called back.

I don't know what, if any, severance money they received.

It was about cutting costs at HQ to maintain the front-line.

We never had anyone in our union laid off during my time there.
Management were treated as expendable.

As far as union guys with "light duty" restrictions at work caught doing heavy duty stuff when off-duty, they were fired.

 

[brihard]

This.

Most the time the reason a union works out in the members favour is because management didn't do their jobs as opposed to the union saving a POS.

My workplace is heavily unionized. We have lots of people who don't deserve to work there. Management being a big part of those who don't deserve to work there. They don't do their job and build records. They don't do the leg work required for the process.

Simple example: You have a guy that doesn't do much work and regularly books off. One day management has enough and fires him. At the grievance meeting it goes something like this usually. Did management document those issues? Did management council that person to let them know there deficiencies? No? Then if they did document the problem it doesn't matter because they never tried to correct the behaviour. Now that POS can even claim harassment because it went from 0 to 100 instantly without build up. The result being they get their job back with back pay.

That's not the unions fault they got their job back, it is the companies because if they had followed the proper steps they wouldn't have had a leg to stand on. And to be fair to the worker if they had counselled them early on they likely wouldn't have gotten to that point as they would have been informed about their deficiencies and the need to correct them.

100% this. Management fails to document issues, and as a result, glue bags get a pass, sometimes more than once.

I did some time as a union rep, and saw this personally, including one case where performance was grievously deficient and needed to be sorted out. No paper trail. They were gonna go from 0-100. I showed them the numerous missed policies on performance management, and it actually ultimately played out quite well. Correctly implementing the mechanisms ultimately let the performance get addressed. Without that intervention it probably would have turned into a big grievance gong show.

 

[mariomike]

Some co-workers described as " POS " or " glue bags " may have been pretty high performance earlier in their careers.

A few decades in some professions is enough to wear anybody's performance down. Some call it burnout.

 

[KevinB]

We were prohibited from photographing (digital or conventional film) or audio taping any scene or situation involving any patient or other person.

That was departmental policy. Not sure if there is a law.

What about Body Cameras?

Most jurisdictions require the footage to be uploaded to be publicly available. Baring footage that is redacted to protect certain information/identities, most that I am aware require a Court Order to redact.

 

[brihard]

Some co-workers described as " POS " or " glue bags " may have been pretty high performance earlier in their careers.

A few decades in some professions is enough to wear anybody's performance down. Some call it burnout.

Yes. And some others just suck at their jobs and, through years of supervisory neglect, develop a sense of entitlement to continue to.

 

[KevinB]

Some co-workers described as " POS " or " glue bags " may have been pretty high performance earlier in their careers.

A few decades in some professions is enough to wear anybody's performance down. Some call it burnout.

Then one needs to find a new career if the current one isn’t working anymore.

 

[brihard]

What about Body Cameras?

Most jurisdictions require the footage to be uploaded to be publicly available. Baring footage that is redacted to protect certain information/identities, most that I am aware require a Court Order to redact.

In Canada we still have a ways to go to figure this out. Body cams are new here and few police have them yet. It will take years for legal departments to figure out acceptable standards for public interest disclosure.

 

[mariomike]

Then one needs to find a new career if the current one isn’t working anymore.

They do. Now. The City finds one for you.

My years of service were during a less enlightened era. Suicide was an option taken by some.

What we refered to as "burnout", now thanks to Presumptive Legislation in 2016, WSIB calls it "Cummulative Mental Stress".

The City now has to find them a "suitable" job. Removed from 9-1-1 operations. You might end up working a ferry boat in the Parks Dept., for example. Or, driving a Zamboni as an indoor Arena - Pool Operator. ( APO ). Or, chauffeur to a City official.

If the pre-injury rate of pay is higher than the relocated position rate, then the pre-injury rate is to be maintained. It is understood that the pre-injury rate is subject to all wage increases negotiated.

Until they retire, or die.

What about Body Cameras?

Most jurisdictions require the footage to be uploaded to be publicly available. Baring footage that is redacted to protect certain information/identities, most that I am aware require a Court Order to redact.

I don't know. After my time, thankfully.

From the U.S. side of the border,

EMS Body-worn Camera Quickstart Guide: Legal Considerations for EMS Agencies

https://nemsis.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/EMS-Body-worn-Camera-Quickstart-Guide_Legal-Considerations_06.2021.pdf