Historic tank comparisons, split from Re: Leopard 2's - 100 from the Dutch

[retiredgrunt45]

I would argue that the Leo 2A6 is moderately ahead of the M1A2 SEP (latest?) variant.  But that's just an argument for beers, for both are very fine MBTs.  (Fine?  Whom am I kidding?  They both ROCK!)

The military channel had a program of the all time 10 best tanks in the world, going back to WW I. Taken into consideration that modern tanks are far Superior to any of their predecessors, but still looking at how the older tanks faired in their day.

The categories were.
1. Logistical support. (How hard it is to support logistically in the field)
2. Manufacturered number (How many were built and fielded)
3. Protection (surviveability)
4. Speed and mobility
5. Firepower weaponry
6. Fear factor

The M1 came in 3rd place and the Leo 2 came in 2ND place, the first place went to the T34 of WWII.

The M1 and Leo 2 and British Challenger were identical in almost every category, except when it came to ease of manufacturing and the logistical support needed for the M1's thirsty turbine engine in the field it got dismal points, The Challenger lost points on its mobility and speed and manufacturered number, so the Leo 2 took the lead in those 2 categories, coming out ahead of the M1.

The top ten tanks were as follows.

10. M4 American Sherman WW II
  9. British Centurian (Cold war)
  8. German Panzer Mark 4 (WW II)
  7. German Tiger (WW II)
  6. Israel Merkava (Current)
  7. French Leclerc MK 2 (Current)
  5. British Mark 1 (WW I)
  4. British Challenger 2 (Current)
  3. M1A2 Abrams (Current)
  2. German leopard 2-A6 (Current)
  1. Russian T-34 WW II

 

[JesseWZ]

Hmmm I'm no tanker but that looks like it would have been an interesting program.

 

[Mourning]

Ehhh... no Panther in the top-10  ???

I know it had its problems at the start of production and was relatively complicated in its day, but after the starting problems were solved it was definitely one of the best tanks of the war. Can't believe it's  not in the top-10.

Regards,

Mourning  8)

 

[geo]

Hmmm I'm no tanker but that looks like it would have been an interesting program.

look at No 7 & 8
BTW.... I think the Panzer Mk IV is a Panther Mk IV

 

[ironduke57]

look at No 7 & 8
BTW.... I think the Panzer Mk IV is a Panther Mk IV

Probably not, as the Panther was the Mark 5.

Regards,
ironduke57

 

[Mourning]

Mark IV was widely known as the PzkfW IV. The Panther is, like Iron Duke pointed out, the Mark V.

Regards,

Mourning  8)

 

[larry Strong]

Been a while since I saw the show, I don't believe they had the  Mk IV on it .

 

[geo]

The list differs a little bit from the discovery chanel's top 10 list

top 1 - Germany's Leopard 2
top 2 - US M1A Abraham
top 3 - Russian T-34
top 4 - Israeli Merkava
top 5 - British Centurion
top 6 - Swedish S tank
top 7 - Russian T-72
top 8 - German Panther
top 9 - US Sheridan M551
top 10 - US M4 Sherman

I really think the Sheridan has no business on the list - but that's just me
WRT the T72?... if you thought the Sherman was a "tommy cooker", the T-72 beats it hands down.
WRT ths S Tank -  Interesting concepts but.... not very practical offensive platform.

 

[Kamaro]

Apparently that discovery channel top 10 (which I watched, and was an excellent show) had an american counterpart which was very similar... except the m1a2 came out 1st

 

[geo]

M1A2 with it's turbine engine can be a big PLUS or a big MINUS....
the remainder of the MBT is pert much the same as the Leo2 A6

 

[retiredgrunt45]

I seen the discovery channel top ten list before i subcribed to the military channel, The history channel also had a top ten list, but I can't remember the tank list, been about a year ago.

The military channel top ten was rerun 4 times in the past 6 months along with a program called weaponology, that highlighted the history of the tank from WW I to modern day tanks. The categories were the same, but results were a bit different. The M1 came out number 1. They explained why the German WW II tanks were very good tanks, but they were never able to produce them in sufficient numbers, because of the complexity of the machines and that's why they were at the bottom of the list.

Its hard to make a comparison between the M1, Challenger and Leo 2 because they are so similar in capabilities. Like the narrator said, these tanks would probably never meet each other on the battle field and that's the only place were we would see which one would come out on top.

 

[Genetk44]

If I remember correctly,and my memory is like collander ;D it seems to me that the "scoreing parameters" if one can call them that,were slightly different on each show which would help explain the differences in the final listings. As an example I believe that one of the main or decideing reasons that the T-34, one of my favorite WW2 tanks, finished #1 in one of the lists was the ease of production/numbers produced. In the end its all subjective I think.

 

[ironduke57]

Been a while since I saw the show, I don't believe they had the  Mk IV on it .

Why? The Panzer 4 is IMO a good tank. Dangerous to any allied armor till the end of war. Relative simple to produce and to maintain. Low on armor to the end, but still on the same level than the Sherman.

Regards,
ironduke57

 

[rz350]

I'm no tanker, but it seems all the modern MBT's are awesome pieces of kit. (leo 2 M1a1 Challenger 2, merkava, type 98/99 chicom and the T-80 or higher from the Russians) They can all go though each others frontal armour, they are all quite maneuverable, fast, and high tech. Of course this is just a layman's opinion based on public info. But I would not want to be on the down range side of any one of them.

For historic tanks, I think the T-34 has to be number one, just based on its track record, cheap, fast to make, and pretty effective. The King Tiger was a very amazing piece of kit for its day, with its heavy sloped armour and its powerful (for the time) gun. But its bad workmanship kind of countered its armour, as it tended to Spall when hit, which to me knocks it down past the t-34, IS-2 and the Sherman.

 

[retiredgrunt45]

If anyone is interested and subscribes to the "Military Channel" the top ten tanks in the world will be aired again on saturday May 5 at 8:00 pm est. Also the program "weaponology" will air the history and development of the tank from WW I to todays modern tanks, will be aired again on Sunday May 6 at 9:00 pm est. If you have Rogers cable its channel 243.

 

[FascistLibertarian]

Which Sherman was the 17 pounder firefly? Too bad we didnt have more tanks with decent guns in normandy.....
Too bad the Allies did not have the centurion during ww2.....
intresting, thanks for the list

 

[geo]

The centurion was part of our lessons learnt.

Too bad the A Bomb wasn't ready in 1942
Too bad the Allies didn't have jets in 43 or 44

It would appear the US wasn't comfortable using an English gun in it's M4 Sherman.... so only the Cdn & UK forces had something like the firefly.... so too bad the US didn't have a comparable gun to place in their M4 Sherman before Normandy.

 

[JasonSkald]

Which Sherman was the 17 pounder firefly? Too bad we didnt have more tanks with decent guns in normandy.....
Too bad the Allies did not have the centurion during ww2.....
intresting, thanks for the list

Sherman Firefly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman_Firefly

 

[FascistLibertarian]

Sigh, I should have checked wikipedia before asking on here....  ;D
geo I am no expert but it seems to me, and I could be wrong here of course, that the Allies should have known before D-Day that their tanks needed heavier guns and that they had far to many tanks which were not armed well enough to disable or destory german tanks. (I am sure I just said something that will get me ripped to shreds by everyone on here who knows about tanks).

 

[larry Strong]

IIRC yes they knew that, but they figured they could swamp them with quantity. A very simplified version.