HMCS Huron To Be Sunk
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CrazyCanuck
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Well disregarding the fact that it is a training mission, isn't that a lot of ordanance to sink one ship?
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Boater said:
And what better way then to hone our skills.....so if we have to do it for real we won't might not have to expend a lot of stuff that goes bang. BTW how do you know it will require a lot of ordanance? Have you taken part in a sinkex before? Another point....training missions as you casually put it is how we get good at our jobs and save lives when it counts. If my ship or any other ship can determine a better way to sink with less, or how to repair battle damage before we lose a ship, if we can actually see the type of damage a Harpoon or 57/76mm shell does to a ship we refine our procedures. This is what counts....
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aesop081
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Ex-Dragoon said:
Wish they would let us do some OTHT with the fisheads for this sinkex......
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x
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None of the naval folks here are arguing against the chance of using this as a training opportunity, we would welcome the chance to do so as well as previously suggested by Navy_Blue which is checking the damage control aspect, something very critical for us in the navy. When we are done the fishes can gladly have it.
No more 3"70s or 3"50s with the retirement of the last steamers.
4 Kirovs built, 2 are left and I don't think the will be used as a target any time soon. That would be a lot of stuff that goes bang.
No more 3"70s or 3"50s with the retirement of the last steamers.
4 Kirovs built, 2 are left and I don't think the will be used as a target any time soon. That would be a lot of stuff that goes bang.
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I went aboard one of the DE when they were stripping her to be a artificial reef, remember looking at what I thought was a heating vent approx. 1’ wide and 6” high, until I realized it was solid Brass!!! Turned out to be a wave guide for the Radar!! Diving on her was quite something.
The cost of cleaning her for scrapping would likely outweigh the money received by scrapping the hull, which is why the US is sinking their carriers the same way. Hopefully they will strip it down a fair bit though before.
The cost of cleaning her for scrapping would likely outweigh the money received by scrapping the hull, which is why the US is sinking their carriers the same way. Hopefully they will strip it down a fair bit though before.
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They always strip what they can to make as less as an enviromental impact as possible.
If there was any hint of a threat to the enviroment we would not be sinking these ships.
If there was any hint of a threat to the enviroment we would not be sinking these ships.
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CrazyCanuck
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[/Quote]And what better way then to hone our skills.....so if we have to do it for real we won't might not have to expend a lot of stuff that goes bang. BTW how do you know it will require a lot of ordanance? Have you taken part in a sinkex before? Another point....training missions as you casually put it is how we get good at our jobs and save lives when it counts. If my ship or any other ship can determine a better way to sink with less, or how to repair battle damage before we lose a ship, if we can actually see the type of damage a Harpoon or 57/76mm shell does to a ship we refine our procedures. This is what counts.... [/Quote]
I didn't say i knew how much ordance it would take I was wondering how much it would take, as my profile states i'm a civi so i have therefore never been on a sinkex, let me rephrase my question to this; in a modern naval battle how much firepower is required to sink a modern warship?
I didn't say i knew how much ordance it would take I was wondering how much it would take, as my profile states i'm a civi so i have therefore never been on a sinkex, let me rephrase my question to this; in a modern naval battle how much firepower is required to sink a modern warship?
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Boater said:
I'm sure estimates on that will range all over the scale. It's going to depend on what they use, where they hit it, and what condition the ship is in (ie X, Y or Z). I would think that if you left it in DCC 'X' and gave it a good hit midships just below the waterline, it wouldn't take much. Any NWTs, or others, to give some more accurate analogies?
In the early 90's I was a crewmember of HMCS ALGONQUIN while conducting a heeling trial alongside in Halifax. While I don't know the specfics of what went wrong (not my part ship) the event went horribly awry and the ship started to flood uncontrollably.
Major factors in saving the ship were the prompt and proper responses of the damage control teams and calling a tug (one of the Glen boats) to push us against the jetty so we couldn't go down.
After the event, while mustering lockers in 13 mess so that the crew's personal items could be cataloged as damaged, I noticed that items in the tops of lockers on the port side had suffered water damage. I am 6' tall and had to reach up onto these shelves! Lots of water in that space!
Relevance here? I agree, any sort of hit below the waterline is going to be close to fatal in a hurry if left unchecked. Above the waterline? With HURON stripped of wiring (and it's flamable and poisonous insulation) she will likely take pretty good punishment.
I believe doctrine calls for xxxxxxx hits in order to consider an opposing modern frigate out of action.
Major factors in saving the ship were the prompt and proper responses of the damage control teams and calling a tug (one of the Glen boats) to push us against the jetty so we couldn't go down.
After the event, while mustering lockers in 13 mess so that the crew's personal items could be cataloged as damaged, I noticed that items in the tops of lockers on the port side had suffered water damage. I am 6' tall and had to reach up onto these shelves! Lots of water in that space!
Relevance here? I agree, any sort of hit below the waterline is going to be close to fatal in a hurry if left unchecked. Above the waterline? With HURON stripped of wiring (and it's flamable and poisonous insulation) she will likely take pretty good punishment.
I believe doctrine calls for xxxxxxx hits in order to consider an opposing modern frigate out of action.
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I think it's safe to say that she will be put to bed with a Mk48 torpedo. Ships of this size are quite resilient to capsizing completely with strictly above the waterline attacks.
During a similar event on a US Knox class frigate a few years back - she took thousands of rounds from a Block 1B CIWS, several hundred 5 inch rounds, a couple dozen 76mm rounds and a single (but well aimed) 40mm HE and remained afloat (Basically, the brunt of the AWW systems (short of missiles) from two Arleighs, one OHP and a committed MCDV). It took the old "48" to bring her down.
For maximum training I think it only makes sense that she will be in DCC 'Z' until the fateful torp ends the day.
During a similar event on a US Knox class frigate a few years back - she took thousands of rounds from a Block 1B CIWS, several hundred 5 inch rounds, a couple dozen 76mm rounds and a single (but well aimed) 40mm HE and remained afloat (Basically, the brunt of the AWW systems (short of missiles) from two Arleighs, one OHP and a committed MCDV). It took the old "48" to bring her down.
For maximum training I think it only makes sense that she will be in DCC 'Z' until the fateful torp ends the day.
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CrazyCanuck
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Roadracer said:
Just what I wanted to know, thank you Roadracer
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Discussing how many harpoon hits a warship should take is an OPSEC issue so I caution you now.....
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aesop081
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If its in the CFCD 106, CFCD 120, ATP-1.ATP-28, ATP-31 and the likes.....
STFU
STFU
Gentlemen:
"As an estimate, two Harpoon hits would be required to disable a destroyer, four for a cruiser and almost eight for a conventional aircraft carrier."
http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/navy/antiship.html
Also worth a look:
http://www.navy.forces.gc.ca/cms_news/news_e.asp?category=7&id=473
"As an estimate, two Harpoon hits would be required to disable a destroyer, four for a cruiser and almost eight for a conventional aircraft carrier."
http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/navy/antiship.html
Also worth a look:
http://www.navy.forces.gc.ca/cms_news/news_e.asp?category=7&id=473
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You stated in your post it was doctrine not an estimate. There is a big difference. Watch what you post irregardless for OPSEC! You have been warned.
I have the actual number. 1/2 of a harpoon to take out a destroyer.
Come on OPSEC.... Read Janes or watch old videos forNavy ships sinking.
The Cole took a huge explosion and didnt sink, Ships through out time have had tons of damage to them, from water mines, collisions, etc. Some have come to port after having magazines explode, missing huge chunks of the ships and have lived. While other ships have sunk do to minor things and small explosions.
Come on OPSEC.... Read Janes or watch old videos forNavy ships sinking.
The Cole took a huge explosion and didnt sink, Ships through out time have had tons of damage to them, from water mines, collisions, etc. Some have come to port after having magazines explode, missing huge chunks of the ships and have lived. While other ships have sunk do to minor things and small explosions.
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aesop081
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...... for those in doubt of the damage a single ASM can do......do a google search and read up on what destroyed HMS Sheffield in 1982.....thats open source. The ship now rests at the bottom of the South Atlantic BTW.
Very interesting. there has been alot talked about OPSEC on this site.
Yes I do know about it, I also know that in 1997 when I was learning about how secret TRICAN NUCAS was and how to use it. I was cautioned about discussing it.
I went to my local library and got a copy of book that described it better then what we were learning. It listed all the country's who use to use it and who was still using it at the time.
I also read top speeds of different missiles, A/C and ships from old Janes books found in the library. Some of which were very interesting at the time as they had actual speeds and effects of weapons in them not the detained factors. Mind you the publications were 10-15 years old. But at the time they were up to date with the equipment we were using.
I have seen the older versions of books that you and Ex-Dragoon see maybe on a daily basis now. Yes that info is OPSEC for the time they are published and in use and not released.
Real shocking what one can find from open sources that the Department of Defense publishes them selves.
I had one staff talk to us about the MK48 Torp, one student asked what the top speed was , he said that was classified but would do 45+ knts open source. I laughed and talked to him privately after wards. He looked shocked and asked me where I got my info from, I told him from Janes public edition along with old US/ British Defence updates all of which are open sources.
I am willing to bet that anyone who actually has sources for the Current Defence books about operations and such would not come on line and talk about the specific specs on weapons and such. They should have been briefed prior to their gaining their security clearance. If they do then they should be charged for such.
Whereas you may have opened yourself up to a PERSEC situation now as you have now just told the world that you have access to this information and have studied it alot in the last while. PERSEC/OPSEC. So anyone now wanting this info could in theory kidnap you or a family member and gain that information.
Most of what I read on here is BS, not harming anyone, we have had theses OPSEC discussions before and that. To bad we really never look at PERSEC. We float OPSEC around like it is a taboo to say anything.
Remember you as a member of the CF cannot express public views on politics, the military past, present or future. If you do you could be putting yourself at risk from prosecution.
Also if you perceive a violation of such you are responsible to report it to the proper authorities.
Further to that if an abuse of position relating to the CF is seen outside of the CF during a leisure function this also must be reported.
One last thing, everything we write on here is monitored by the people who maintain security with in our country and those who try to destroy it. Keep that in mind.
Keep our topics to the far side of any thing truly serious.
Hence my 1/2 missile comment.
Cheers all
Yes I do know about it, I also know that in 1997 when I was learning about how secret TRICAN NUCAS was and how to use it. I was cautioned about discussing it.
I went to my local library and got a copy of book that described it better then what we were learning. It listed all the country's who use to use it and who was still using it at the time.
I also read top speeds of different missiles, A/C and ships from old Janes books found in the library. Some of which were very interesting at the time as they had actual speeds and effects of weapons in them not the detained factors. Mind you the publications were 10-15 years old. But at the time they were up to date with the equipment we were using.
I have seen the older versions of books that you and Ex-Dragoon see maybe on a daily basis now. Yes that info is OPSEC for the time they are published and in use and not released.
Real shocking what one can find from open sources that the Department of Defense publishes them selves.
I had one staff talk to us about the MK48 Torp, one student asked what the top speed was , he said that was classified but would do 45+ knts open source. I laughed and talked to him privately after wards. He looked shocked and asked me where I got my info from, I told him from Janes public edition along with old US/ British Defence updates all of which are open sources.
I am willing to bet that anyone who actually has sources for the Current Defence books about operations and such would not come on line and talk about the specific specs on weapons and such. They should have been briefed prior to their gaining their security clearance. If they do then they should be charged for such.
Whereas you may have opened yourself up to a PERSEC situation now as you have now just told the world that you have access to this information and have studied it alot in the last while. PERSEC/OPSEC. So anyone now wanting this info could in theory kidnap you or a family member and gain that information.
Most of what I read on here is BS, not harming anyone, we have had theses OPSEC discussions before and that. To bad we really never look at PERSEC. We float OPSEC around like it is a taboo to say anything.
Remember you as a member of the CF cannot express public views on politics, the military past, present or future. If you do you could be putting yourself at risk from prosecution.
Also if you perceive a violation of such you are responsible to report it to the proper authorities.
Further to that if an abuse of position relating to the CF is seen outside of the CF during a leisure function this also must be reported.
One last thing, everything we write on here is monitored by the people who maintain security with in our country and those who try to destroy it. Keep that in mind.
Keep our topics to the far side of any thing truly serious.
Hence my 1/2 missile comment.
Cheers all
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