Holding Class B jobs for reservists that go on tour (Split: 220 Reservists Needed for TF 03-06)

[Grunt_031]

If anyone on a current Class B is considering applying, ensure you read through the freshly amended ADM (HR-Mil) Instruction 20-04.   There is a new provision to protect your Class B job (under certain circumstances) should you deploy

Seems to be wanting your cake and eating it too. If a person is concerned about losing his Career Class B he should just join the Regs.

 

[Haggis]

Seems to be wanting your cake and eating it too. If a person is concerned about losing his Career Class B he should just join the Regs.

Some "Career Class B" soldiers have made the choice to not join the Regs because wife/hubby has a high paying professional job that is not transferable to CFB Middleofnowhere.   Others may already be ex Reg. Even others, mostly the more senior, may not eligible to component transfer due to age, recruiting quotas in their MOC or the requirement for a huge cut in rank/pay upon transfer.

If a "full time soldier" (Reg F) volunteers for a tasking, he comes back to a full time Army job.   Should not the same courtesy be extended to a "full time soldier" (Res F)? This policy doesn't cost the Army a dime financially but pays huge dividends in giving Reservists operational experience they would otherwise not get and in the past have been denied.

 

[Grunt_031]

This policy doesn't cost the Army a dime financially but pays huge dividends in giving Reservists operational experience they would otherwise not get and in the past have been denied.

They should return back to their units and pass this experience on to their counterparts, not return back to the driver task, HQ's, etc. This would also allow other Reservists that want Class B employment to be given the opprotunity/to gain experience. If there is no one that can fill this position then the the person can have this position back. The problem when I was in the reserves it was always the same Career Class B Reservist that got the "Job" as they knew the right people because they had been working for them already or made the connections.

If a "full time soldier" (Reg F) volunteers for a tasking, he comes back to a full time Army job

He may come back to a full time job but this does mean that he/she will get the same job back. When someone leaves, the job still has to get done. Alot of people put to much importance on them selves. In the military, the job will get done with you there or not and sometimes the guy that replaces you can do a better job.

 

[rifleman]

You would think he'd have his Class 'B' position protected until he got back considering the Reserve (CFLC) is going around asking the Civilian Employers to protect them

 

[Haggis]

They should return back to their units and pass this experience on to their counterparts, not return back to the driver task, HQ's, etc.

100% agree.   The policy I quoted also provides for Reservists on Class B away from their parent units to parade "voluntarliy" with thier unit (by voluntarily I mean that there is no extra pay for this).   This should be a prerequisite used by the parent unit when selecting members

This would also allow other Reservists that want Class B employment to be given the opprotunity/to gain experience.

Units nominating their own in-house Class B's are not the problem.   As in the Reg F the Regiment looks after it's own.   It's when the soldier employed OUTSIDE the unit wants to deploy.   The employing unit must consent and, quite often, the employing unit does.   In isolated cases this doesn't happen.   In the past, particularly outside the "Army", the deploying member was told "Go, but we're not going to bring you back on Class B.   You quit."

He may come back to a full time job but this does mean that he/she will get the same job back.

True.   I should have been clearer..

If a member is on Class B from, say, 01 Apr 05 to 31 Mar 08 (3 years) and he volunteers for TF 03-06, he will be gone from his Class B from 01 Feb 06 to 15 Feb 07 (based on the brochure). What the policy means is that he comes back and finishes off his existing contract in the same or a similar position.

When someone leaves, the job still has to get done. Alot of people put to much importance on them selves. In the military, the job will get done with you there or not and sometimes the guy that replaces you can do a better job.

Quite true, but the Army and the deploying soldier have a contract.   If the replacement is better than the original, that doesn't void the contract.   The soldier still gets some job back.   When that contract runs out the Army is under no obligation to renew it.

 

[George Wallace]

Not to bum anyone out, but I have a couple of questions:

1.  If a Reservist on a Class B decides to go for a Tour and break his contract, why should he expect to get that contract back when he returns?  There are budgets set for employing within the various Bdes and if someone leaves for whatever reason and someone else has to be hired to fill the vacancy, I see no requirement to allow the person who broke the contract to return to that position.  Ethically I see a problem with the person breaking a contract to go on Tour and expect to have a job when he returns.  I also see a financial delema with that happening also.

2.  Next question I have is in reference to Allowances on Tours.  I have heard that some of the locations that are open on Tour are not getting the same Allowances and Tax Exemptions as others.  I am wondering if there is any truth to this rumour?

 

[Gunner]

George,

In answer to your questions:

1.  If a unit or HQ does not want to send a person on tour, he doesn't go.  If he still wants to go, against the wishes of his full-time unit, he can submit his resignation from the position.  If the Reservist wants to go, there are positions that are available on CFTPO, and the unit will make arrangements to backfill or do without that person then the unit should hold that position for the Reservist.  This is what the CF is telling members of CFLC and it is very hypocritical if we don't do it ourselves (let me tell you we didn't back in the 90s).  Most full time reservists that go overseas are staff officers or the ever needed RMS Clk.  Both are from a limited pool within the CF.

2.  Allowances on tour depend on the Hardship and Risk rating given to each mission. While I won't get into the Hardship and Risk rating for some of the current missions for OPSEC reasons, lets just agree that Kabul is of higher risk than Camp Mirage.  Camp Mirage is not a high enough risk and therefore does not qualify for the Tax Exemption that riskier missions are provided.  Generally hardship and risk ratings are pretty generous given the nature of some of our missions overseas.

My 2 cents.

 

[George Wallace]

Thanks Gunner

I knew that the Danger and Risk pays were different, but I wasn't too sure on the TAX EXEMPT part.  Looks like some taskings are not as 'jammy' after all.

 

[Haggis]

This is what the CF is telling members of CFLC and it is very hypocritical if we don't do it ourselves (let me tell you we didn't back in the 90s). 

Agreed. In fact the policy varied from Area to Area.  A national policy only came out within the last few weeks.
As well the number of previous missions has a bearing on the Foreign Service allowances that a member gets.  More past missions = more money.

I see no requirement to allow the person who broke the contract to return to that position.

A bit draconian, George.  Given your line of thought, would a Class B member on maternity or parental leave be denied thier job at the end of such leave because they "broke their contract?"

My $0.02 (after deductions, of course)

 

[Gunner]

Depends what you are looking for.  Take Camp Mirage, you can have a six month paid vacation.  Sure you don't get the tax exemption and higher rates of allowances but you don't have to deal with all the crap (literally) and people trying to kill you.  If I had to go to Camp Mirage, I would take advantage of everything that was offered.  

 

[George Wallace]

I would call it rather Draconian if it weren't for the limited Budget that is funding these Call Outs.  Someone, being hired to fill a vacancy of somone else who has broken a contract, is within the Budget.  We will find ourselves over budget by rehiring the person who broke contract for a Tour and Gong, who expects the world to owe him a job on return.  Either allowances must be made by NDHQ and direction downwards to cover this common occurance, or many Reservists will be boned by their Units.  Having just spent two months on course and seeing how some Reserve Units failed in the basic needs of their soldiers and not paying them properly for two months, I see a serious problem in the Reserve World.  Heads should roll.

Sorry, went off tangent there.  There is a big difference between the Reg and Res Force soldier going on Tour.  The Reg has the job, and on return will have a job, not necessarily the one he left, but a job in the Unit still.  The Reservist and the Reserve System are not the same.  A Reservist can return to his Unit, but if his Posn on a Class B has been filled by someone else, he has lost it and can only rely on, what is it, Class A?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

So George, welcome back from course and welcome to the world of today's Reserves. It's refreshing to see/ hear from an ex Reg who's taken the step of coming over to the dark side. Now you get to realize that all the problems we've spoken about for years, and have been tut tutted for, are actually true. Welcome to our little disfunctional family ;D

 

[George Wallace]

Gee....thanks Dave.....I have been lucky so far.  I have a good OR Staff who have been taking care of us very well.  Got into a high demand job, and could keep rather busy if I wish to.  I have suffered the Slings and Arrows in both worlds, so now I hope to relax a bit....have to unpack all the Movers boxes.  So no Tours for a while.  ;D

 

[Gunner]

George,

About funding, it comes from two different pots of money.  The unit does not pay the wages of a soldier deployed as they are on Cl C service.  Hence, at worst there is limited amount of overlap. 

Hear you about the pay system.  Let's just say it is much better than it once was....

 

[Haggis]

About funding, it comes from two different pots of money.   The unit does not pay the wages of a soldier deployed as they are on Cl C service.   Hence, at worst there is limited amount of overlap.

Quite right.
Cpl Smith, working a Class B contract for three years, takes a year "off" to go on a tour.   His unit hires Cpl Jones to replace him for a year.   The unit is still paying for only one Cpl for three years, the money is simply split between Cpls Smith (2 years) and Cpl Jones (1 year).   Funding for the mission comes from a different budget in the DCDS shop, not out of the unit's purse.   Whether Class B Cpl Smith goes on the roto or Class A Cpl White, the mission still pays for only one Cpl.

There is a big difference between the Reg and Res Force soldier going on Tour.  

Is there?   Last I checked, the same CFAOs, QR&Os, CBIs, DAODs etc. apply equally to both.   The Reg F soldier and the Class B reservist both signed a contract with the CF.

That being said, if the unit denied the soldier the opportunity to go and he goes anyways he has, in fact, quit.  No job upon return.

As a side note, the Reserve pay system is at it's worst for new members.   Wanna see this thread turn pear shaped real fast???   Start posting about Reserve pay... :rage:

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Quite right.
Cpl Smith, working a Class B contract for three years, takes a year "off" to go on a tour.   His unit hires Cpl Jones to replace him for a year.   The unit is still paying for only one Cpl for three years, the money is simply split between Cpls Smith (2 years) and Cpl Jones (1 year).   Funding for the mission comes from a different budget in the DCDS shop, not out of the unit's purse.   Whether Class B Cpl Smith goes on the roto or Class A Cpl White, the mission still pays for only one Cpl.

I agree, and when the guy comes back, he can compete for the Class B job like everyone else. Cl B's are supposed to be relativley short term contracts of a few months to a year. To many Reservists are making a career out of them.

Is there?   Last I checked, the same CFAOs, QR&Os, CBIs, DAODs etc. apply equally to both.   The Reg F soldier and the Class B reservist both signed a contract with the CF.

Right again. Same pay and benifits for the same rank, although a Reservist on deployment is on a Cl C contract.

As a side note, the Reserve pay system is at it's worst for new members.   Wanna see this thread turn pear shaped real fast???   Start posting about Reserve pay... :rage:

Don't bother. There's already lots on Reserve pay now, if you want to "Search".

 

[Haggis]

I agree, and when the guy comes back, he can compete for the Class B job like everyone else. Cl B's are supposed to be relativley short term contracts of a few months to a year. To many Reservists are making a career out of them.

Class B positions are under one year.   Class B(A) positions are from one up to three years.   With the change in Reserve Force Employment Policy on 01 Apr 03, most formerly Class C positions reverted to Class B(A).   The way I see it, this is the type of position and soldier this policy is intended to benefit, the long term Full Time Reservist.   Like it or not, the CF needs them in those positions, else a Reg F soldier gets pulled "from the line" to fill them. Additionally, the long term Class B(A) soldier provides more depth of "corporate memory" for his short(er) tenured Reg F comrades to ply.

Although we can agree to disagree, the policy exists.  Hopefully it will provide the missing piece of the opportunity set allowing more senior Reservists to get operational experience to bring back to their units.

Lastly, I will pose the same question to you as I did George a few posts back:   If a Class B or B(A) Reservist takes "time off" during a contract for parental or maternity leave, should they be treated the same as the soldier who takes "time off" for a tour?

Don't bother.

Never intended to.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I will pose the same question to you as I did George:   If a Class B or B(A) Reservist takes "time off" during a contract for parental or maternity leave, should they be treated the same as the soldier who takes "time off" for a tour?

OK, you got me there. Part of me says yes, out of fairness. Part of me says no, because I think our Cl B & B(A) system is somewhat broken. There's to many Reservists that are spending enough time on contract to get a pension, in the system. If they want to do that much time, join the Regs. They're playing the game in OR's around the country. Never being posted or sent on tours, unless they want to. They should get the full 100% wage and all the stuff that goes with it. "Pte Bloggins, they need a pay clerk in Khandahar. Pack your bags", but they're just a Reservist on Cl B, so they say "nope, not doing that". If a Cl B or B(A) job gets posted, the incumbent should go to the bottom of the list. Give someone else the shot first.

 

[Gunner]

Give someone else the shot first.

Not sure what it is like out your way but in Western Canada, there isn't anyone else.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Which is fine then. However, I've seen cases where terms of reference are built so only the incumbent can meet them and the person that gives the go ahead is the buddy they've been working with for the last two years. It effectivley blocks anyone else from breaking into the system. People that are better qualified are passed over for friends that are only mediocre in the job. The Cl B & B(A) system is rife with nepotism.