Honours & Awards (merged)

[Nostix]

The CF is involved in other things....

If it was, I would've heard about it on CBC. As it stands, I'm inclined to believe you've gone loopy. 

 

[Pusser]

Come on!  I said it.  Then, I wrote it and posted it on the internet.  Therefore, it must be true! ;D

 

[FDO]

Come on!  I said it.  Then, I wrote it and posted it on the internet.  Therefore, it must be true! ;D

I read it somewhere too so its got to be right.

 

[gun runner]

I read the list, there are a few Yanks on it, and a few for actions in Haiti, and one from Egypt.Not all from  Afghanistan.Cheers.

 

[AJC]

Should be an addition to section 5 of PER, right above promotion recommendation. Should say something like " Performed adequately in a position of authority"  The note should say " Click box for awarding MSM"

Looks like a Medal for one of two criteria 1) awarding a mbr for stellar performance about their level of training and experience; and 2) Performed adequately in a position of authority.

Switched on = Promotion not medals.

Bring back the MM and MC.

 

[opcougar]

One of the senior officer honoured on the list deserves it for his work in Haiti. I can tell you that the man is really switched on, has very good knowledge of the country and to be in charge of 5000 people from different forces isn't an easy job. Col Girard from CANOSCOM is the person am talking about ( signals officer )

 

[Strike]

There is also a member from this site who was honoured as well.

 

[Good2Golf]

While the GG noted much about Afghanistan, it was not all about Afghanistan; both His Excellency and the CDS addressed the full spectrum of operations and support activities within which the recipients were involved in.  E.g., the full crew of RESCUE 903 is on the MSM list, a Capt (the aircraft commander), a Major (the co-pilot), a MCpl flight engineer and a MCpl SAR Tech - a variety of ranks due to the composition of the crew involved in the resuce.  That represents a 50/50% officer/NCM MSM split for those who appear to focus on the rank, vice the accomplishments of the recipients.  What, no complaints about the 100% "sweep" of the MMV awards by NCMs?  Notice how petty it would sound asking that question?  Should we somehow deduce that officers do not act valorously since they don't often receive MMVs?  Aside from a nominatively associated rank within the Order of Military Merit, there is no such restriction/limitation/proponency to rank within the GoC's meritorious decoration structure.

Infanteer noted some of the issues perhaps in the structure of the awards that may lead to differences in nomination/identification of individual contributions.  As an MSM recipient myself, I am humbled by many fellow recipients for whom I believe recognition should have in fact been for a higher degree (MSC or MMV...Sgt(Ret'd) Joe Brink comes to mind.)  I also put great credence in awards that some folks appear not to appreciate (or understand) as much as I feel they should; Mention-in-Dispatches being such an award. 

Apparently it isn't enough for some folks simply to appreciate the accomplishments for what they are, in many cases not only of the recipients, but also for others who often contributed to the overall meritorious achievements.

Question, how many of those critiquing the award distribution here, have previously nominated a deserving individual or team in their own organization for a similar or related meritorious award?  I have done so; seeing some success, but also being frustrated at seeing others I though quite deserving not be recognized.  I can't explain why some of those nominated were not recognized, but I feel "the system" (i.e. us) is working hard to recognize the numerous CF personnel who, with great devotion, work above and beyond expectations and make the CF a truly great organization within which to serve our country.

Perhaps, until there is an award for statistical prowess, we could leave out categorical convolutions that have the potential to detract from the intent of the original recognition?

Regards 
G2G

 

[PuckChaser]

I also put great credence in awards that some folks appear not to appreciate (or understand) as much as I feel they should; Mention-in-Dispatches being such an award. 

I've had people ask if my MiD was the new maple leafs for the rotation bar...  ???

 

[Infanteer]

Well it's nice to see the area is getting recognition now.

Actually, having worked the H&A side, the system is getting a lot better now in terms of how things are recognized.  The GCS-GCM / OSM structure of service medals makes for timely yet distinct recognition of operational service (and repeated tours).  Our framework for recognizing Valour and Meritorious service is sound.  I think, in general, the system is a lot better understood and utilized than it was 5 years ago and we owe it to ourselves to make all efforts to recognize our solid performers.

What I'd still like to see is:

1.  A revamp of the Mention-in-Dispatches to cover the ground between the Meritorious Service Medal and the CDS Commendation.  This would include perhaps changing it from a device on a ribbon to an actual independent insignia.  Have approval authority as the CDS (vice Government House, although I think this was done with the M-i-D) and target it at "exceptional acts of leadership or initiative while on operations".  Right now, we have lots of guys deserving of some sort of operational recognition for excellent work in theater but the "brings honour or distinction to Canada" bill is harder to fit for a MCpl/Sgt/Lt type at the low levels then it is for a CWO or a LCol - hence why MSM/MSCs are tended to be awarded to senior ranks whose service is more visible.

2.  A system to ensure a quicker turn around from submission to award.  Right now, things tend to take 9-15 months.  When we have something bad to deal with, things tend to get done within 30 days, but for some reason, we're content to let recognition of our best stretch out over months.  Either a regimented system of admin timings for paperwork (with hard dates for committees) or a direct line to the award OPI from a specific level (essentially skipping some levels of the chain) are possible solutions.

Edit: Grammar.

 

[jollyjacktar]

What I meant by area was the physical area of operations.  We spent a solid three months there doing the job for no recognition as would be the case now as it has some value. 

On the recognition of valour, I like the more timely speed the Americans use for the lessor awards at times.  Being awarded the medal in the field or soon thereafter, with your mates present would mean more to me than a trip to Rideau Hall a year or two later in front of strangers and the like, were I being recognized.  I could understand for the higher awards, VC, SMV etc a more lengthy process would be required to ensure quality control. 

 

[Infanteer]

On the recognition of valour, I like the more timely speed the Americans use for the lessor awards at times.  Being awarded the medal in the field or soon thereafter, with your mates present would mean more to me than a trip to Rideau Hall a year or two later in front of strangers and the like, were I being recognized.  I could understand for the higher awards, VC, SMV etc a more lengthy process would be required to ensure quality control.

Totally agree - I had guys getting M-i-Ds in Afghanistan while on tour their for their second tour....

Perhaps my proposal (1) would fit the bill for your comment.  Something like CO does letter, forwarded to TF Comd for minute, forwarded to CDS who minutes letter and approves presentation in theater.  30 days from flash to bang allows for quality control and the like.

 

[jollyjacktar]

It would be a start in the right direction, that's for sure.

 

[McG]

Perhaps my proposal (1) would fit the bill for your comment.  Something like CO does letter, forwarded to TF Comd for minute, forwarded to CDS who minutes letter and approves presentation in theater.  30 days from flash to bang allows for quality control and the like.

I would just like to see a system where nominations just kept moving forward.  If a formation or command level board decides that an individual deserves a different honour or award than the nomination suggests, that nomination should not be fired all the way back to the originating unit to be rewritten so that the file can appear unanimous when it reaches the decision level.  Instead, the level that decides a different recognition is deserved should put their own comment onto the file ("X is nominated for award B, but award C is more appropriate because ...") or there should be an award issued from that level (this could be that the individual gets a Comd's commendation from the level that decides the nomination does not warrant anything higher) or the nomination is rejected (ie - the nomination has already gone higher than the highest level of recognition that it merits).

I've seen nominations spending years getting bounced back from successively higher levels of HQ with the unit being directed to rewrite back & forth between to possible recognitions.  I've even seen a level of command change its mind (everyone left over APS and the new H&A board did not agree with the previous) and bounce a nomination back to be rewritten with the recommendation it had just previously rejected.

... I'll take some comfort in the hope that my observations are just the problems of a particular food-chain and not symptomatic of the CF (or even the Army) as a whole.

 

[Infanteer]

... I'll take some comfort in the hope that my observations are just the problems of a particular food-chain and not symptomatic of the CF (or even the Army) as a whole.

Rest assured that is the case in my locale - if the reviewing Commander decides to elevate the award, he simply indicates so in his covering letter higher.  Perhaps you've witnessed lazy staff officers at work?

The problem administratively is :

1.  The DND 2448 can be a pain in the neck, especially with DHRs own requirements contrary to what the actual form says.  These tend to get bounced (and eat up time);

2.  Vague requirements as to what actually is required for an award - for some reason, formation, command, and national awards can have different requirements (some with an info sheet, some with a draft citation, some with a narrative, etc, etc).  DHR needs to come out with a universal standard so Adjutant's aren't guessing what to submit and they need to apply Occam's Razor to narrow this requirement to the most minimal amount of paperwork as necessary; and

3.  Most of all, the need for every level to collect, prepare, deliberate, and finally propose to the Commander nominations for a commendation or award.  This process likely takes 2-8 weeks at every level and after looking at a flow chart of how this paper work travels, you can see.  For example, Cpl Bloggins destroys an enemy bunker and saves his buddy.  His immediate supervisors write up the report and the unit Adjutant collects the paperwork for the CO and submits it higher, possibly reviewing at a unit committee firsthand.  Goes to HQ Task Force Whateverstan, where it is put through the collection, preparation, deliberation and Commander review process.  Commander approves and it, putting it under cover letter to Commander CEFCOM.  Repeat the cycle, to go to NDHQ, where it repeats the process at DHR twice (once for a national awards committee and then again at a Bravery Committee).  It is then forwarded to Government House for approval by the Governor-General.  I didn't think there was something more long and painful than the Road to High Readiness until I saw the Honours and Awards administrative system....

 

[Navalsnpr]

I've seen a CLS Commendation go from concept to being awarded in 8 days and I've also seen a CMS Commendation be awarded 18 months after its submission. There is obviously an issue with the way submissions are processed depending on which element you belong to.

Isn't it also ironic that a LCol can write up a Commendation and then a Capt denies it at the HQ level? or one of the reviewing authorities at an Area Command HQ is a Public Servant who has the power to deny application?

The system needs to be streamlined while maintaining the integrity of the Honours and Awards it supports.

 

[PuckChaser]

Not timely yet for the GCS rotation bars. I don't know if there's a slow down in the minting, or my unit is just awful at paperwork, but I'm still waiting. ISAF bar is staying on until I get it.

As for the MID, I agree with what Infanteer stated to start the thread. It doesn't need to be its own medal, but I can see it being a separate insignia a la CLS/CinC commendation. I also agree it needs to be easier for troops to get the MSM. If almost every unit commander overseas can get it, there must have been some hard working Sgt/MCpl/Cpl/Ptes that got them there.

 

[jollyjacktar]

My GCS bar was awarded in October.  The paperwork was submitted in April.  The initial award of the GCS took about 6-7 months after I returned to Canada. 

 

[RCR Grunt]

2.  A system to ensure a quicker turn around from submission to award.  Right now, things tend to take 9-15 months.  When we have something bad to deal with, things tend to get done within 30 days, but for some reason, we're content to let recognition of our best stretch out over months.  Either a regimented system of admin timings for paperwork (with hard dates for committees) or a direct line to the award OPI from a specific level (essentially skipping some levels of the chain) are possible solutions.

In 2 instances I'm aware of it took nearly 4 years for the individuals to be recognized for their actions on TF 3-06 and they are still waiting to be awarded their medals.

Whats up with that?

 

[Navalsnpr]

Wow... I can't believe that it took so long for the rotation bar.

Mine was submitted on day 210 in theatre and received while I was in theatre 18 days later.