How does the loss of the CAR still affect training and capabilities?

[McG]

Those gunners and sappers that jump are doing it without established positions (and the corresponding money from Ottawa).  That means there is no money for them to train in that capacity unless they are piggy-backing a 3 VP exercise or taking funds from another source.

The approach to light engineering is different in every area and every regiment.  There is no set standard and so no guarantee of what you will get.

The army's clear statements that it will not establish a jump capability lead me to suspect you will not see black hatters jumping in anytime soon, as you've suggested.

No.  The jump companies do live in a bubble.  There is just enough outside support to make it work in Canadian training areas, and enough window dressings to fool some into believing we have an all arms jump capability.

 

[Zipper]

MCG. Do you think it is viable or acceptable to the powers that be if we moved to the ideas presented in the Light Cav, Light vs medium, and other cavalry threads to have the Infantry move towards a "light" tasking a la RM and Ranger idea? Would this also open the door to a jump capability again?

 

[McG]

I think we should look at a light bde (as proposed in the 5,000 peacekeepers brigade thread) or at the very least establishing jump positions for all the other arms.

 

[MrGnr27]

If there are still Gunners out there who are wearing a maroon beret, that is news to this Call Sign !

When the CAR was suddenly disbanded, there were but a few wheels with backbone who insisted on the maintenance of a sizeable para capability. (The name " Canadian Parachute Regiment " was being tossed about ). Alas, not a whimper from the CDS, and the troops marched off the square into history.

I have read that the only reason we presently maintain a para capability is for response to a civil emergency ( ie: trans arctic airplane crash ).  That is probably news to the troops in the present para companies.

Curiously, Jane's says that we still mantain a complete parachute battalion. ( I suppose we do, if you bundle every small para asset together ).

Anyway, having served in the Airborne Regiment in Edmonton, and supporting it in Petawawa, I can say this:

1. The Regiment, and its' Battle Group,were once exciting units to go to for a few years, due to the varied training venues;

2. We did more in a single training year than you would in a line battaliion ( continuation para, helo skills, mountain school, Regimental Battle School, Small Unit Exchanges, Jump Bivouac, inter-arms cross training, etc.); and

3. Some well-trained soldiers were returned to the line units.

We lost that valuable "intermediate training ground". The Army has been paying for the mistake ( the disbandment ) ever since.

Ex Coelis

 

[MrGnr27]

This Call Sign has been informed, via other means, that Arty assets ( FOO parties, mortar crews/door bundles ) having been exiting aircraft with the Para Coys for " the last six jumps or so ".
This is very gratifying to old Airborne Gunners everywhere. You see, once you lose something ( like the para role ), it is very difficult to get it back.
Now, all they have to do is expand the companies, add the Sigs, a sizeable Sapper element, and that much needed CSS, and we're in business again.

HUA !

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Yea, and come up with a fancy new name, like..........Special Service Force?     

 

[Infanteer]

Special Service Force 2.  Then, like the JTF 2, people can take wild guesses at why it got its name and argue about changing the name to something better.... ;D

 

[MrGnr27]

Bruce ! C'mon man ! You are supposed to be on my side!!

( How many times did you run up Zipperhead Hill with that towing eye anyway ? )

 

[GO!!!]

Those gunners and sappers that jump are doing it without established positions (and the corresponding money from Ottawa).   That means there is no money for them to train in that capacity unless they are piggy-backing a 3 VP exercise or taking funds from another source.

The approach to light engineering is different in every area and every regiment.   There is no set standard and so no guarantee of what you will get.

The army's clear statements that it will not establish a jump capability lead me to suspect you will not see black hatters jumping in anytime soon, as you've suggested.

No.   The jump companies do live in a bubble.   There is just enough outside support to make it work in Canadian training areas, and enough window dressings to fool some into believing we have an all arms jump capability.

I'll slow down a bit for you.

THERE ARE ARTY JUMP POSITIONS.

THEY DO WEAR MAROON BERETS AND RECIEVE JUMP PAY

THERE ARE JUMP MEDICS - THEY ALSO WEAR MAROON BERETS

THERE ARE JUMP SIGNALLERS - GUESS WHAT THEY WEAR?

THE SAPPERS JUMP WITH US TOO - but they wear green -

What do black hatters have to do with anything?

Just to clarify as well - just because you are unaware of an event/policy/capability, does not mean it is non - existant.

As to the army's "statements" about not establishing a para capability, please substantiate, this doesnt jive with the 30 new para positions for the 3rd Bns as of next month.

"just enough to work in trg areas"? "window dressing"? Firstest with the mostest is the the way airborne ops are planned and executed. There is no "ideal" way to organise a coy cbt team - sacrifices will have to be made somewhere according to the situation on the ground.

Furthermore - the people who are supposedly "fooled" include the Bde Cdr on down  - all except for you apparently.

If you require further clarification - ask.

 

[pbi]

The army's clear statements that it will not establish a jump capability lead me to suspect you will not see black hatters jumping in anytime soon, as you've suggested.

mcG: could you expand on these statements? I'm not familiar with them. Not to say that they don't exist, but rather that they seem to be at variance with what is going on in the Light Battalions right now.

Cheers.

 

[McG]

THERE ARE ARTY JUMP POSITIONS.
THEY DO WEAR MAROON BERETS AND RECIEVE JUMP PAY

This is news to me.   How many and how are they distributed between the brigades?

THERE ARE JUMP MEDICS - THEY ALSO WEAR MAROON BERETS
THERE ARE JUMP SIGNALLERS - GUESS WHAT THEY WEAR?

Yes, these have been around for a while and along with the riggers, they make up the minimum occupations needed to support an exercise jump in Canada.

What do black hatters have to do with anything?

I assumed your reference to DFS jumping was to the LdSH DFS experiment.   If it was in reference to your DFS Pl, then yes that is a topic the LFWG is looking at.

THE SAPPERS JUMP WITH US TOO - but they wear green -

I know we do.   However, we do not have established jump positions.   Every CER has a different approach to the parachute and light roles.   There is no standard.   Currenlty all of our entitled equipment is for a mechanized force, so we are not established for specialty tools that might be better suited to a parachute role.

mcG: could you expand on these statements? I'm not familiar with them. Not to say that they don't exist, but rather that they seem to be at variance with what is going on in the Light Battalions right now.

I'm having trouble traking anything down at the moment (maybe better luck through the DIN).   In any case, it was an answer to a question about establishing sapper jump positions.   There would be none because the army had no intent to create an expanded jump capability.   Unless something new fell out of the november LFWG, I have not heard that this "no growth" plan has changed.

 

[McG]

Okay I found a reference (though not the one that I was looking for) in the LFWG terms of reference.  They state that "LFC light forces will not generate an airborne (i.e. parachute assault) capability."

http://lfdts.kingston.mil.ca/web_te...4_CLS_CD_ Planning_Guidance_Light _Forces.doc
(DIN access required)

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote,
Bruce ! C'mon man ! You are supposed to be on my side!!

I am on this, my post was severly adrift in a sea of sarcasm........ :-X

Quote,
.( How many times did you run up Zipperhead Hill with that towing eye anyway ? )
...I beleive it was M/Bdr Greenwood[?] who looked at you and said something like, " Just get him over here, haven't you realized he's too stupid too stop?" 

 

[kj_gully]

OK, I've waded thru the bulk of this thread, and feel that I have something new to offer up. Back near the start, MR. Ted rather eloquently dissed a Marine style light force for Canada, he said it was imperial. At any rate, it appears that Gen. Hillier is on track to provide Canada with a marine style Army.With that in mind, I think it could be very exciting to explore the Marine recon "Gunny Highway" ops. See the posts in the Engineer thread on Combat diving. I think Para Commandos, or Rangers, or whatever you call them, are a fantastic venue for training, motivating, and retaining quality soldiers, but we are too small to have that and a marine expiditionary force. Mind you, the Rangers did play the traditional "Marine" role in Europe while the US marines were busy in the pacific. So para qualified pers, speciallized in amphibious ops would be a great tier two force for Canada's soldier.For ever, well at least since the end of WW2, Canada has tried to be all things for all situations. This has led to a diluted level of proficiency at everything. That is why this supposed "bold vision" of an expiditionary CF is exciting. We need to choose a deployment method, and become the best at it. It sounds as though it will be seaborne, rather than Airborne. Troops start thinking SBS vs SAS, Marines VS Ranger, I think the writing is on the wall

Take care, warriors